Scotrail's Suburban EMU's - Capacity Increase

[Scotrail314209]

Travelling quite frequently on the ScotRail suburban network around Glasgow, I've noticed most of the Argyle Line services are running as 3 carriage units, whereas North Clyde is running 6 carriages. Not much strengthening could be done as the 318/320 are really stretched out between North Clyde, Argyle, Cathcart and Inverclyde.

Maybe some Desiro City fixed formation 6 coach EMU might do the trick, and can then release 318/320 fleet to work on the Cathcart and Inverclyde routes.

I'm interested to hear different thoughts on this.

 

[Starmill]

In 2016, the class 320 fleet was augmented by 7 3-car units, formerly class 321s of London Midland.

In 2018, a further 5 3 car units were converted from class 321s that had operated on Great Northern routes.

The original fleet stood at, I think, 22, so there are now 34 unless I am mistaken. I am surprised this fleet is so stretched, although it's pretty clear that they have consumed the new units with extra diagrams, which have added significantly to capacity.

Of course, there may still be need for more. I would suggest that as there are 3 at Northern, along with 5 very similar class 322s, and a very large number at Greater Anglia (I'm afraid I don't know how many, around 100? Of which I think 30 have been committed to refurbishment under the Renatus project).

What is the latest on class 385 deployment on Glasgow South electrics work? Of course, a great element of all of this has gone on class 314 withdrawal, which I understand is yet incomplete, but is close?

 

[Scotrail314209]

In 2016, the class 320 fleet was augmented by 7 3-car units, formerly class 321s of London Midland.

In 2018, a further 5 3 car units were converted from class 321s that had operated on Great Northern routes.

The original fleet stood at, I think, 22, so there are now 34 unless I am mistaken. I am surprised this fleet is so stretched, although it's pretty clear that they have consumed the new units with extra diagrams, which have added significantly to capacity.

Of course, there may still be need for more. I would suggest that as there are 3 at Northern, along with 5 very similar class 322s, and a very large number at Greater Anglia (I'm afraid I don't know how many, around 100? Of which I think 30 have been committed to refurbishment under the Renatus project).

What is the latest on class 385 deployment on Glasgow South electrics work? Of course, a great element of all of this has gone on class 314 withdrawal, which I understand is yet incomplete, but is close?

Majority of Lanark is now 385 on Weekday, with a single 320/318 on weekday. There is also a single 385 on an Inverclyde diagram, and 2 or 3 of them on Cathcart. Cathcart/Newton are mainly worked by 318/320 now, with the occasional 314/380. Inverclyde is about 50% 380 and 50% 318/320, so quite a mix. There is also a 318/320 normally allocated onto Paisley Canal throughout the weekday. So it is really stretched as some lie around Shields waiting to do the Carstairs service.

There are still about 3 or 4 314 services on a weekday, some of which being peak Neilston. There are 2 (i think?) allocated throughout the day and go between Cathcart Circle and Newton.

 

[13h202]

If SR could get a hold of the Class 707s that are coming/have come off lease and stick pantographs on them, they would be a good replacement for 334s on Airdrie/Bathgate routes which could allow them to be cascaded to strengthen other suburban lines.

 

[JonathanH]

If SR could get a hold of the Class 707s that are coming/have come off lease and stick pantographs on them, they would be a good replacement for 334s on Airdrie/Bathgate routes which could allow them to be cascaded to strengthen other suburban lines.

No they wouldn't. Why replace six car 120m trains with five car 100m ones on a busy suburban route designed for six coach operation?

There are plenty more 321s that could be converted to 320s if they really need to increase the fleet.

 

[applepie2100]

Given the length of time it seems to take for procurement, testing and fault free running plans need to start being made now for the replacement of Class 318 and 320 units on Glasgow suburban routes. As we currently have a total of 55 three car units a sensible proposition would be a replacement with 55-60 six car 701's, 707's or similar. This would ensure that all services are run with as many carriages as the suburban platforms can handle.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I think next franchise the 318s will be replaced relatively early on, but the 320s may stick around as they are slightly newer. If not desiro city’s, maybe some 6 coach Aventra would do the trick?

 

[JonathanH]

I think next franchise the 318s will be replaced relatively early on, but the 320s may stick around as they are slightly newer. If not desiro city’s, maybe some 6 coach Aventra would do the trick?

The 318s and 320s are effectively one fleet now to the extent that their replacement date is almost certain to be the same - either the 318s go on for a while or the 320s have a shorter life than the 318s.

 

[Scotrail314209]

318s are essentially the oldest in the fleet, so now should be a good time to procure some new suburban units.

 

[Clansman]

The 318s and 320s have just undergone a refurbishment programme which has only just reached its conclusion. They'll be good to go until 2030. I mind putting on another thread a few months ago that the history of rolling stock procurement for Glasgow suburban workings has seen a continuous cycle of ten yearly procurements; the 314s in the 70s, 318s in the 80s, 320s in the 90s, 334s by 2000s, and 380s by 2010s. These procurements have by a stretch acted as 'plug ins' for increased services and capacity. Proceed further another decade with the same demand increase and you will then be procuring another fleet at double the numers just to mitigate the eldest one retiring.

By the next franchise, the most logical move is to replace the entire 318, 320, and 334 fleets in a oner.

 

[JonathanH]

By the next franchise, the most logical move is to replace the entire 318, 320, and 334 fleets in a oner.

Seriously? I get that 318 and 320 are now basically one fleet and will go at the same time but 334s as well?

 

[Clansman]

Seriously? I get that 318 and 320 are now basically one fleet and will go at the same time but 334s as well?

Yes. They will still be 25-30 years old by that point. We only think of them as younger because they dont fit the claggy narrative that the BREL EMUs set, albeit as newer technology they will last much longer.

They're just the example that proves the problems with ten yearly procurements. Eventually they'll be the victim of that. The 334s not going off lease will just continue the damned cycle that has gotten ScotRail into the fleet mess it has around Glasgow.

 

[JonathanH]

The 334s not going off lease will just continue the damned cycle that has gotten ScotRail into the fleet mess it has around Glasgow.

Wouldn't you just end up changing the cycle to a 30-year one instead of a 40-year one or a 40 year one with a 20 year gap? Having a cyclical replacement policy is a good way of maintaining investment rather than feast and famine in fleet replacement.

In theory 334s could remain dedicated to Edinburgh to Helensburgh / Milngavie while the 318/320 fleet is replaced on the shorter workings.

What is it about the current arrangement that is a mess?

 

[MatthewRead]

The 318s and 320s have just undergone a refurbishment programme which has only just reached its conclusion. They'll be good to go until 2030. I mind putting on another thread a few months ago that the history of rolling stock procurement for Glasgow suburban workings has seen a continuous cycle of ten yearly procurements; the 314s in the 70s, 318s in the 80s, 320s in the 90s, 334s by 2000s, and 380s by 2010s. These procurements have by a stretch acted as 'plug ins' for increased services and capacity. Proceed further another decade with the same demand increase and you will then be procuring another fleet at double the numers just to mitigate the eldest one retiring.

By the next franchise, the most logical move is to replace the entire 318, 320, and 334 fleets in a oner.

320's were actually built between 1989-90.

 

[Clansman]

Wouldn't you just end up changing the cycle to a 30-year one instead of a 40-year one or a 40 year one with a 20 year gap? Having a cyclical replacement policy is a good way of maintaining investment rather than feast and famine in fleet replacement.

In theory 334s could remain dedicated to Edinburgh to Helensburgh / Milngavie while the 318/320 fleet is replaced on the shorter workings.

What is it about the current arrangement that is a mess?

Granted you have a valid point about the maintenance of investment with the cyclical policy, if it's even a policy or just mere coincidence.

It's not neccessarily a mess for now, but I do question how lack of flexibility when it comes to having 334s affects operations when it comes to staff training, fleet rotation, and contingency situations. It's not exactly ideal to have to make do with a cancelled service along the A&B because of a lack of 334s or such like, nor is it ideal to have the current arrangement where we are going to see 4 different traction operating a single suburban route.

I'm yet to remain convinced that retaining 334s would improve anything when the 318s and 320s are replaced, most definitley at the same time.

 

[Scotrail314209]

The 334s if kept would be good to use exclusively through Glasgow Queen St LL, with the new builds exclusively on Argyle, Cathcart and possibly Inverclyde.

Maybe a mixed fleet of 4 car and 6 car EMU’s might do the trick?

 

[applepie2100]

The 334s if kept would be good to use exclusively through Glasgow Queen St LL, with the new builds exclusively on Argyle, Cathcart and possibly Inverclyde.

Maybe a mixed fleet of 4 car and 6 car EMU’s might do the trick?

Part of the problem with mixed fleet lengths is that you end up with short formations and therefore overcrowding where it may not have have happened otherwise. With all units being of the maximum possible length (which I believe is 6x20m on ex-Strathclyde) it vastly reduces the risk of this happening. The removal of intermediate cabs gives another few meters of otherwise wasted space. One standard formation of type and class also ensures that rescue will be by a compatible unit in the event of failure or other issue.

We also need to get away from the false economy of only purchasing exactly what is needed to run the (admittedly very fragile) timetable. The idea of having five or six extra units which are not accounted for by the timetable allows the creation of "hot spares" which can be quickly deployed in the event of a failure to step up or indeed act as a rescue unit.

The decision has to be made to bite the bullet and go for large scale fleet replacement to consolidate three or four different classes of unit down to one class of unit suitable for the current *and* future needs of these lines.

 

[JonathanH]

The idea of having five or six extra units which are not accounted for by the timetable allows the creation of "hot spares" which can be quickly deployed in the event of a failure to step up or indeed act as a rescue unit.

The problem with that is that you also have to have sidings to keep the hot spares in and most of those have been removed or aren't located in sensible places.

The decision has to be made to bite the bullet and go for large scale fleet replacement to consolidate three or four different classes of unit down to one class of unit suitable for the current *and* future needs of these lines.

Realistically there are four sets of service group served by 318/320, 334, 380 and 385. Scotrail choose to operate units across service groups for operational reasons to avoid the need to retrain staff if they reallocate the units.

Clearly there is a bit of an issue that the 318/320 fleet numbers 55 units and the 334 fleet 40 such that you can't decide to put something new on the services via Bathgate and cascade the 334s to suburban services (if that was indeed desirable) without the new fleet also needing to work one of the other routes.

However, even if you replaced 318, 320 and 334 in one go, Scotrail would likely still choose to run 380s on the Cathcart lines and 385s to Gourock.

At the same time, the possibility of running electrics to East Kilbride and Barrhead at some point means more units will be needed anyway.

I'm no particular fan of the 334s relative to the other fleets but fleet replacement of, say, 50 6-car units is a big investment all at once.

 

[Scotrail314209]

A good thing about all 6 car units, some routes do absolutely fine with 3 car units (for now), such as Newton. But as the population grows, and more houses are constructed they will require 6 cars. Particularly Inverclyde which is a busy route throughout the day, especially with a 3 car.