Scottish Domestic Ferries discussion

[GrimShady]

I can't see an issue. Calmac was kept in public ownership, the fares are lower and the service improved with new ships on the way. Seems pretty good to me. I travel the the islands often and overall it's an excellent service. Not the most efficient staffing-wise but it works.

CalMac was but Northlink which was run by CalMac Gourock is not, they were cheated out of the tender, other parties were pretty miffed too. Serco then set about a campaign of naughty tricks such as trying to force people to purchase cabins and the usual round of going after the crew T&Cs. Fares in CalMac are lower due to RET, new ships are a requirement due to the fleet ageing and forecasted growth. You'll find the staffing levels are due to the vessel Passenger Certificate/Minimum Manning certificate which dictate the required crew to safely operate the vessel and for emergency/abandon ship situations, there is also the Hours of rest to comply with. CalMac is a excellent nationalised company one I hope the ScotRail of the future will become.

 

[cf111]

There is no way that the Caledonian MacBrayne of today could run as a private entity. The Northern Isles ferries on the other hand have done so since their inception. As for RET: Lerwick and Aberdeen are somewhat further apart than even Ullapool and Stornoway, so would this not have the chance of making the fares higher than they are?

"Cheated out of the tender" is a very strong accusation, how do you qualify it? It is telling that the decision to award the tender to Serco was subject to judicial review from Shetland Line Ltd and the Court of Session found in favour of the Scottish Ministers. I'm sure if there was concrete proof of a misdeed against CalMac then this would also have been challenged.

 

[GrimShady]

Cal Mac could not and should not ever be run as a private entity. A life line ferry service cannot be run in such a way, you are correct in saying the Northern Isles were a private operation i.e P&O Scottish ferries and before that The North Company but they did receive a subsidy. The Northern Isles ares reliant on the life line service as much or maybe even more than the Western Isles. They should never be considered as not. In its twilight years P&O was a very poor operation with old second hand tonnage and not a lot planned for the future hence the Northlink creation at the turn of the century.


The Government has for a long , long time been meddling in the affairs of Caledonian MacBrayne, Its naive to think they were not told to back down. Those involved at the time all know the whole sorry situation stank, lets be honest its not the first time Serco have been accused of dodgy deals.

Just my two cents worth from someone at an operational level in the industry.

Apologies for veering off topic again.

 

[InOban]

Sorry for continuing the off-topic theme. I believe that P&O was founded by a Shetlander, and the company continued the operation there for heritage reasons. Without any continuing link to the Northern Isles, they gave notice that they were pulling out, so it fell to the gov to pick it up.

The crewing cost of Calmac arise from the fact that the boats are designed and certificated, and therefore crewed for their peak summer demand even though very few sailings carry anything like that number. For example, the Isle of Mull is crewed for, I think, 950 PAX, even though there's probably only a couple of sailings a day, even at peak season, which carry anything like that number. But they are still required by law to carry that full crew even when there may be only a few dozen passengers.

It would be interesting if trains had a legal staff complement related to the capacity of the train......

 

[GrimShady]

Sorry for continuing the off-topic theme. I believe that P&O was founded by a Shetlander, and the company continued the operation there for heritage reasons. Without any continuing link to the Northern Isles, they gave notice that they were pulling out, so it fell to the gov to pick it up.

The crewing cost of Calmac arise from the fact that the boats are designed and certificated, and therefore crewed for their peak summer demand even though very few sailings carry anything like that number. For example, the Isle of Mull is crewed for, I think, 950 PAX, even though there's probably only a couple of sailings a day, even at peak season, which carry anything like that number. But they are still required by law to carry that full crew even when there may be only a few dozen passengers.

It would be interesting if trains had a legal staff complement related to the capacity of the train......

It was cofounded by a Shetlander however P&O didn't take up the reigns until the early 70s. P&O were well miffed when they lost out on the tendering the first time and yet again in the recent tendering, although I'm not surprised given the initial bid! P&O will be in for it again this time although something makes me think CalMac will get the contract again. There's a political reason for it this time!

Vessel crewing levels can be adjusted for the level of patronage. It is the amount of passengers that dictate the crewing level (beyond the minimum to sail and operate her). It is possible to go between various crewing "Modes" as we call them for summer/winter seasons. Many shipping lines do this to adjust for the quiet spells. This must all be approved by the MCA/Company/Lloyds etc. Maximum Passenger carrying figure is dependent upon the vessels LSA equipment/Class and Trading area and consequently her PC.

I do find it strange that trains are not required to have a minimum crewing level for the passenger carrying capacity.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont think private companies should run lifeline services unless they are experienced in doing so and can prove it.

P and O used to run Northlink and therefore could do so again. Likewise Streamline shipping are already in the freight business up there and know the wropes.

However the public sector, or an at arms length company/traiding arm of same running lifeline fery routes is IMO a very different and more positive game than a similar setup on the railway.

Just my view

 

[GrimShady]

Lets just say Miss Sturgeon will NEVER be getting my vote for her response to the situation and the attitude towards CalMac, which was shocking I might add for a nationalist party.

 

[Highland37]

Lets just say Miss Sturgeon will NEVER be getting my vote for her response to the situation and the attitude towards CalMac, which was shocking I might add for a nationalist party.

I can't see an issue. Calmac was kept in public ownership, the fares are lower and the service improved with new ships on the way. Seems pretty good to me. I travel the the islands often and overall it's an excellent service. Not the most efficient staffing-wise but it works.

 

[Fishplate84]

"Cal Mac could not and should not ever be run as a private entity. A life line ferry service cannot be run in such a way"

Why? A lifeline ferry service is just a ferry service. The service should be run safely, efficiently (to protect taxpayers money as the service by definition can never be commercially viable) and provide a level of service that meets the needs of islanders. The needs of islanders can and is specified by the Government, including route, frequency, service timings, capacity, ticket cost etc. This specification is arrived at after detailed consultation with the islanders and island representatives.

Whether the actual service is delivered by a private company or a public company doesn't matter one bit.

What is evident is that where the service is being delivered by a public company, the Unions have a strong grip and the Government and its ministers know it is politically damaging to be seen to be in disagreement with them.
The Unions can pretty much demand what they want, threaten to stop the service and being a lifeline one, the Government pays up. This has been going on for years.
As a taxpayer, I find it outrageous that we have to pay £120m or more in subsidy a year to Calmac to fund gross inefficiency and a woeful level of transparency and are expected to assume this is 'good value' just because they are publicly owned.
By any international benchmark ferry operation, I'm sure Calmac is desperately inefficient.

I'd rather a private operator make £5m in profit and the subsidy be £100m a year. The money saved on driving efficiency is far better spent on health, police or education.

 

[GrimShady]

The difference being it is a service that cannot fail. The island needs the service as their are no other means of delivering goods/pax.

The beautify of Public CalMac is that it isn't interested in cutting an scrapping every little penny to return to the shareholders, reasonable savings yes but nothing like the sickening under funding that goes on in other shipping companies. Some of the"savings" other companies do is ridiculous and in many times illegal. I struggle to understand why a public company is instantly seen as gross inefficient due to its nature of being state owned? As for not being transparent simply attend the regular meetings they hold.

CalMac is there to ensure a regular/reliable service, maintain its fleet for a high availability and to encourage growth of traffic.

Grossly inefficient? I think not however if you mean their vessels are well maintained and staffed and not driven into the ground and run on a shoestring budget like some other operates then yes you would be right there! As someone who has extensive experience in the shipping industry I can assure you there is a very good service level and quality of tonnage which rarely exists in the private industry.

I should point out that companies like this exist elsewhere in the world where high reliability and quality is needed for the lifeline services eg Interislander NZ or Marine Atlantic Cananda

 

[Blindtraveler]

The gastly Serco squeezed the Northlink opps for every penny when they took over and marketed them as improvements. My X Wife was from the Isles and nobody likes them, I beliveve we have iether a current or X Shetlander on the forum somewhere and Im sure hel bare me out on this.

The new Northlink tender will be interesting in so many ways time, firstly as I think everyone from the senior master to the poor pax want rid of serco but there will be a number of other factors at play here.

Firstly the Pentland Furth Scrabster Stromness, will it be split this time?

It is a well known fact Andrew Banks of Pentland Ferries, the comercial rival claims with the same subsidy everyone would travel free with him.

Will there be any tunnage changes? The current fleat will turn 20 during the next contract, time for replacement or just major refurbishment? The Aberdeen service needs additional cabbins for a start.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[GrimShady]

The gastly Serco squeezed the Northlink opps for every penny when they took over and marketed them as improvements. My X Wife was from the Isles and nobody likes them, I beliveve we have iether a current or X Shetlander on the forum somewhere and Im sure hel bare me out on this.

The new Northlink tender will be interesting in so many ways time, firstly as I think everyone from the senior master to the poor pax want rid of serco but there will be a number of other factors at play here.

Firstly the Pentland Furth Scrabster Stromness, will it be split this time?

It is a well known fact Andrew Banks of Pentland Ferries, the comercial rival claims with the same subsidy everyone would travel free with him.

Will there be any tunnage changes? The current fleat will turn 20 during the next contract, time for replacement or just major refurbishment? The Aberdeen service needs additional cabbins for a start.

Thoughts anyone?

They did indeed! Serco are a truly foul bunch!

I would imagine they'd be looking get 30 years out of the current vessels. They are sound ships and very well looked after however the sea keeping qualities are dreadful. Larger vessels were planned however maneuvering through "the cut" at Jamisons Quay prevented this. There is talk of relocating the Northlink berth further out towards point Law. In this case new vessels might be in order in 10 years of maybe even lengthening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The difference being it is a service that cannot fail. The island needs the service as their are no other means of delivering goods/pax.

It'd be a pretty big problem if a London commuter TOC failed outright, too.

 

[InOban]

When Pentland Ferries goes for maintenance, planned or unplanned, they depend on Scrabster to take their traffic. No need to keep a relief boat. And their boats have limited passenger capacity, and therefore a small crew. Essentially he's leaving the subsidised operator to cover the peaks.

Contrary to what Grimshady says, i understood that you couldn't recertify ships for a reduced PAX capacity during low season. I don't think Calmac reduce their crewing levels out of season, but I may be wrong.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agreed enturely they are crap seaboats.

I dont think we can expect the current numbers of cabbins to cope for another 15 years though, maybe its time to do away with the forward bar and sleaping pods in favour of some small economy cabbins for coach/lorry drivers, budged travelers and the cabbin share scheme? And Id quite like anual drydocking back too as my experience suggests that underly the serco contract maintainance has suffered and reliability with it.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Re Pentland ferries, I believe that if given half a chance Mr Banks would expand and go large or even super size with his opps

 

[GrimShady]

It'd be a pretty big problem if a London commuter TOC failed outright, too.[/QUOTE

That wouldn't cut off food and supplies to the local populace now would it? When the ships don't sail the islands run out of everything within mere days. There is also the fact they also cant export their produce either some of which is time critical.

 

[380101]

The gastly Serco squeezed the Northlink opps for every penny when they took over and marketed them as improvements. My X Wife was from the Isles and nobody likes them, I beliveve we have iether a current or X Shetlander on the forum somewhere and Im sure hel bare me out on this.

The new Northlink tender will be interesting in so many ways time, firstly as I think everyone from the senior master to the poor pax want rid of serco but there will be a number of other factors at play here.

Firstly the Pentland Furth Scrabster Stromness, will it be split this time?

It is a well known fact Andrew Banks of Pentland Ferries, the comercial rival claims with the same subsidy everyone would travel free with him.

Will there be any tunnage changes? The current fleat will turn 20 during the next contract, time for replacement or just major refurbishment? The Aberdeen service needs additional cabbins for a start.

Thoughts anyone?

I lived in Shetland for 10 years. I have many fond memories of travelling with P&O on the St. Clair (the last one and it's predecessor). I have also had the misfortune to travel on the New boats under Northlink. Whilst both the St. Clair vessels were ex cross channel ferries I always found them pleasant boats to sail on. The P&O crews were friendly and alot of locals worked onboard. One of the St. Clair captain's, Michael Grey, lived up the street from us and we always got a visit to the Bridge if he was in charge of the sailing.

Northlink however brought in new build boats that were not a patch on the outgoing St. Clair. Whoever designed the interior fittings had never sailed the North sea during winter. Entire bar contents destroyed due to no catches to hold cupboard and fridge doors shut; plates and cups broken etc.

It was very rare to hear that the P&O boats failed to gain entry to Aberdeen due to the weather or even fail to sail due to adverse weather. Northlink seem to cancel sailing regularly during the winter. This may be due to tightened rules on sailing during adverse weather or simply the boats can't cope with the North Sea in the winter weather. Any friends we speak to who live in Shetland are of the opinion that the Northlink boats are not fit for purpose and are not a patch on the P&O vessels.

 

[GrimShady]

The vessel were built specifically for the Northern Isles run but not DESIGNED for it. This is a common fault with modern ships, the hulls are designed totally wrong with prime consideration given to reducing broken stowage and maximising cargo capacity. The bow design carries way too much flare for penetrating on-coming swell, CalMacs new Loch Seaforth has the almost straight stem design (originally a Victorian design) for is far better for heavy seas.

There is an element of canceling sailings due to the risk of injury to passengers but also due to the risk of not being able to berth at the other side. The ships have spent a full day before hove to just waiting to for Aberdeen Harbor to open again.

I do like the ships but they are horrendous sea keepers!

 

[380101]

The vessel were built specifically for the Northern Isles run but not DESIGNED for it. This is a common fault with modern ships, the hulls are designed totally wrong with prime consideration given to reducing broken stowage and maximising cargo capacity. The bow design carries way too much flare for penetrating on-coming swell, CalMacs new Loch Seaforth has the almost straight stem design (originally a Victorian design) for is far better for heavy seas.

There is an element of canceling sailings due to the risk of injury to passengers but also due to the risk of not being able to berth at the other side. The ships have spent a full day before hove to just waiting to for Aberdeen Harbor to open again.

I do like the ships but they are horrendous sea keepers!

The last St. Clair and St. Sunniva had a perfect bow profile for the North Sea swell. They always seemed to carve through the oncoming seas with ease. I always enjoyed sitting up late into the night in the front bar viewing the oncoming waves. The Northlink boats were designed to maximise commercial gains as you've said instead of being able to cope with the route they were built to serve. The new CalMac boat looks impressive and well designed for the route it serves. Similar style larger boats would go well on the Aberdeen - Lerwick route.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I have yet to try the new Loch Seaforth, anyone fancy a trip?

I also never saled on the old ships but everyone I speek to says the same that they were better. Now all it takes is for someone somewhere on the Northlink network to fart loudly and it becomes a Nolink Notwork as ships are tied up. This needs addressing as whilst I dont want anyone hurt, P and O, DFDS ale much greater numbers of punters over the North and Irishocians in bad weather and cansle half as much.

If this means new tunnage in the form of 2nd hand or newbuild or simply a short appointment with the cutting tools and welding machines in a dockyard somewhere from which it would emerge bosting a new more businesslike front end then lets do it, soon.

 

[Fishplate84]

"The last St. Clair and St. Sunniva had a perfect bow profile for the North Sea swell. They always seemed to carve through the oncoming seas with ease. I always enjoyed sitting up late into the night in the front bar viewing the oncoming waves. The Northlink boats were designed to maximise commercial gains as you've said instead of being able to cope with the route they were built to serve. The new CalMac boat looks impressive and well designed for the route it serves. Similar style larger boats would go well on the Aberdeen - Lerwick route"

The St Clair and St Sunniva would never pass maritime safety laws today and would be far far too small for the amount of passenger, car and freight traffic using the services. Both vessels had passenger accommodation below the waterline which is not legal any more.

To keep the same profile, the vessels would have to be extremely long to be able to accommodate the demand, including cabin capacity. Very long vessels will not fit into Aberdeen Harbour. Maybe, once Aberdeen Nigg Bay is developed, replacement vessels can be build that are large enough and a better shape for the sea.
But, the islanders would be in uproar, because Nigg Bay is not in the middle of town and walking distance from the station and Union Square shopping centre.

As usual, there has to be a compromise. A more 'perfect boat' or docking in an out of town location. My guess is the town argument will again win, and the next Northlink vessels will by necessity be just as compromised as the current ones. And people will still moan.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If termianl relocation is on the cards in Aberdeen then a curtacy bus running Airport, Bus Station ferry would be a good idea and if the airport journeys were chargeable it might make a penny or 2: a valid booking refference would give free City Centre to Ferry Travel with a 50p charge for those without one.

 

[Highland37]

CalMac is a excellent nationalised company one I hope the ScotRail of the future will become.

This seems to contradict your earlier statement of "...response to the situation and the attitude towards CalMac". NS has overseen record expansion in the fleet, introduction of RET, more passengers, more freight, more reliably with more services.

 

[Highland37]

One service I would like to see introduced would be a Scotland to Norway route. Either direct from Aberdeen or via Lerwick.

 

[380101]

One service I would like to see introduced would be a Scotland to Norway route. Either direct from Aberdeen or via Lerwick.

P&O ran such a service to Bergen from Lerwick. It was very popular.

 

[GrimShady]

This seems to contradict your earlier statement of "...response to the situation and the attitude towards CalMac". NS has overseen record expansion in the fleet, introduction of RET, more passengers, more freight, more reliably with more services.

When members of CalMac approached her office during the Northlink tender they were told that due to the fact the were employed by David MacBrayne Crewing which is a subsidiary company based in Guernsey, they were not regarded as British workers by her party and would not receive any help from the SNP. CalMac was split into various compaines to comply with the dreaded EU legislation which government forced upon them instead of twlling Brussels to gon and do one.

They (SNP) seem to have had a massive change of heart recently after their failure to convince the people vote for independence. Now they can't seem do enough enough, very strange! I think you'll see Northlink back in the hands of CalMac next year. CalMac is a good company due to the dedicated people it has working for it and the funding level it enjoys not because of any political parties input.

 

[GrimShady]

One service I would like to see introduced would be a Scotland to Norway route. Either direct from Aberdeen or via Lerwick.

There has been talk if this many times. P&O did used to run the odd sailing in the summer,there was also another vessel from Norway which used to call. Im told it was been discussed at Government level many times. The issue is the private operator won't touch it untill theres a proven track record of profitability. It should be noted these sailings were from Lerwick and not Aberdeen which we could really use.

I for one am all for it!

 

[Fishplate84]

"I think you'll see Northlink back in the hands of CalMac next year. CalMac is a good company due to the dedicated people it has working for it and the funding level it enjoys not because of any political parties input."

Why?
Calmac is a brand owned by Scottish Government.
The vessels and ports are owned by CMAL, not the operator.
The Government determines the fares, routes and services to be delivered.
Investment in vessels and ports are funded by Scottish Government subject to what cash they have available. The operator makes a stonking operating loss on delivering the service so it can't possibly invest in anything directly unless its funded or part funded by Scottish Government. This would be true whoever the operator was.

Whoever operates it, the same staff will deliver the same services, on the same routes and charging the same tariffs to customers.

It's a management contract pure and simple, no matter how it looks.

Scottish Government's first priority should be specifying a service level that meets the needs of the island customers, passengers and freight and tourists.
Its next priority should be that the service is operated transparently with excellent governance and high safety levels.
Its third priority should be that it is getting the best value for money for the vast investment of taxpayers money the service sucks up.

Who the actual company is that manages the contract is utterly irrelevant. If it's Calmac, fine. If its Serco, fine. If it's Stena / P&O / DFDS / Western Ferries / whoever else chooses to bid for the contract, fine. It is for the Government to set a good specification and properly evaluate its options to determine the best choice.

There is no logic whatsoever that just because a company is publicly owned it will be more competent, efficient or provide better value for money. In many sectors, quite the opposite has been proven time and time again.

What is apparant is that if the operator is publicly owned, political expediency gets in the way. How can a Transport Minister really criticise or take to task a company he ultimately owns and controls? How can the company he ultimately owns and controls stand up to unreasonably demands from unions when there is always the next election to think about?
Its easier to keep things quiet and keep coughing up the cash in ever larger amounts.

Is this any way to run a country or use taxpayers money responsibly?

 

[link1driver]

Makes you laugh, remember directly operated railways (East Coast)? Delivered record profits and savings to the tax payer! What was the answer? Private operator!

Caledonian Macbrayne is an iconic operation, steeped in history, and proud to employ crews from islands. It would simply be wrong not to protect institutions like them. Also CalMac can and will tender for work elsewhere, remember they were narrowly beaten for a contract from Sweden using the Isle of Lewis.

As for the fleet, they are old well maintained and loved by their crews, nothing wrong with a bit of pride in your vessel, speaking as an ex 4th Engineer, on old tubs like Glen Sannox, Columba, Pioneer and the Claymore, not as fancy as today's ships, but fit for the era they served. The safe mannng certificate, regardless of PC dictates a vessels manning, only way to cut down crew is remove catering staff, which is fine on a tanker, not so a ro ro, where catering ratings have duties as regarding muster stations.

Lastly I was proud to have been there, I transferred out when Columba left the fleet, went deep sea for a bit, and came back to Hebridean Princess before BR, wish folk would just let them get on with the job they have been doing for 44 years now!