Seat Reservation and overcrowding.

[Mark J]

There have been two journeys I have made recently whereby I had a seat reservation, which was mandatory when making the booking.

However, when it came to making the journey, I was unable to take my seat due to overcrowding and someone already sitting in it.

Rather than cause an argument, I let it go and was forced to stand in the end part of the carriage.

If I have a seat booking and it isn't honoured by a TOC due to overcrowding, am I entitled to a refund/compensation for part of my ticket?

If so, how do you do this? I'm familiar with Delay Repay, but not what to do in this instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This depends on the TOC (LNER has a very generous policy if I recall), but if you neither asked the person to move nor found staff and asked them to find you another seat then I doubt you would be entitled to anything.

 

[Mark J]

This depends on the TOC (LNER has a very generous policy if I recall), but if you neither asked the person to move nor found staff and asked them to find you another seat then I doubt you would be entitled to anything.

The problem with asking someone to move on a heavily overcrowded train is that you then risk an argument and a escalating situation.

If, for example, a drunk football fan was occupying my booked seat, would I really risk a punch up over a seat, by asking them politely to move?

I did speak to the Train Manager but they basically implied not much could be done on an overcrowded train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with asking someone to move on a heavily overcrowded train is that you then risk an argument and a escalating situation.

If, for example, a drunk football fan was occupying my booked seat, would I really risk a punch up over a seat, by asking them politely to move?

I'd suggest that that's really overtalking it almost to the point of agoraphobia. Simply going up to someone, showing your reservation and saying "I'm afraid that's my seat, would you mind if I sit there please?" is categorically NOT going to result in a "punch up". If they say "no I'm not moving" then it's time to get staff, but most people won't, they'll just move, even with a huff and bad grace.

Situations only escalate if both sides escalate them.

I did speak to the Train Manager but they basically implied not much could be done on an overcrowded train.

In that case I'd suggest a claim under the TOC's policy would be appropriate as they have failed to find you another seat. Which TOC is it?

 

[Mark J]

I'd suggest that that's really overtalking it almost to the point of agoraphobia. Simply going up to someone, showing your reservation and saying "I'm afraid that's my seat, would you mind if I sit there please?" is categorically NOT going to result in a "punch up". If they say "no I'm not moving" then it's time to get staff, but most people won't, they'll just move, even with a huff and bad grace.

Situations only escalate if both sides escalate them.



In that case I'd suggest a claim under the TOC's policy would be appropriate as they have failed to find you another seat. Which TOC is it?

Crosscountry on both occasions.

I think you underestimate some people.

I've seen a passenger nearly have a physical argument with a train manager before, over being asked to move their bag from a seat, so someone standing could sit down.

The Train Manager asked then to do so, the TM walked off, the passenger then made some remark. The TM then went back to ask them what they said, there was a bit of verbal dialogue before the passenger rose out of their seat. The TM walking away prevented anything more occurring.

Unfortunately there are some idiots who use the trains, who will not be told, even if they are in the wrong.

So if this can happen to a TM, that person wouldn't think twice over a physical argument with another passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Train Manager asked then to do so, the TM walked off, the passenger then made some remark. The TM then went back to ask them what they said, there was a bit of verbal dialogue before the passenger rose out of their seat. The TM walking away prevented anything more occurring.

Yes, that's an escalation. If you ask politely once and accept whatever's said, there won't be one. Even the most unreasonable of people doesn't go straight to violence when asked something once.

 

[londonbridge]

Yes, that's an escalation. If you ask politely once and accept whatever's said, there won't be one. Even the most unreasonable of people doesn't go straight to violence when asked something once.

Waiting for a bus once, about six or seven people, when the bus arrived an old boy who’d only just arrived pushed straight to the front and got on.

Other passenger: “scuse me, there’s a queue”

Old boy: “you’re brave ain’t ya. Shut the f@@k up c@@t, or I’ll fu@@@n do ya”…..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Old boy: “you’re brave ain’t ya. Shut the f@@k up c@@t, or I’ll fu@@@n do ya”…..

You may get some choice words, and that isn't pleasant, but I bet he didn't actually "do" the person concerned.

It must be horrible to go through life with a constant unfounded fear of being thumped if you ever say something to another person. As I said what that is is a mild form of agoraphobia.

 

[Mark J]

You may get some choice words, and that isn't pleasant, but I bet he didn't actually "do" the person concerned.

It must be horrible to go through life with a constant unfounded fear of being thumped if you ever say something to another person. As I said what that is is a mild form of agoraphobia.

Although going back to my original post.

Surely when you reserve a seat for a journey, you are essential entering into a contract with the TOC.

If that seat isn't honoured for whatever reason, then surely the contract has not been honoured, as some kind of refund should be forthcoming.

I've let the past instances go, as the last instance was two weeks ago.

I'm just more interested if it occurs again in future, especially after a long day out, far away from home.

 

[Snow1964]

Should be pointed out that different operators use different names, and different rules eg GWR calls it seat guarantee

• if you have reserved a standard class seat but have to stand for your whole journey because neither your booked seat nor an alternative seat was available, we will provide compensation. This will be 50% of the cost of a single ticket, or 25% if a return ticket is held
• if you have a First Class ticket and no seats are available in First Class but you were able to get a seat in Standard or had to stand in First Class, then we’ll refund the difference between the First Class ticket held and the equivalent Standard ticket; if there are no available seats in Standard, we will cover the full cost of the affected journey
• if you have a Season Ticket, we’ll work this out based on its daily rate, not the cost of the journey

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that seat isn't honoured for whatever reason

I think you would be struggling to justify it not being honoured if you made no effort to ask the person sitting in it to move, though. If you did and they refused then there is potentially an issue (though wasn't avoiding liability there why the railway started making reservations free?)

Several TOCs do have a rather better policy, though, and that policy is likely to apply as you asked staff who didn't find you another seat. Which TOC was it?

 

[lfc84]

I recently had seat reservations in Coach E on a busy TPE service. Coach E didn't exist. Do TPE have any compensation in this instance ?

 

[AlterEgo]

The Train Manager asked then to do so, the TM walked off, the passenger then made some remark. The TM then went back to ask them what they said

Unwise - that's exactly how things escalate.

 

[Mark J]

Just spotted the attached on the XC 'Passenger's Charter'.

The question is, how does the Train Manager 'endorse' an e-ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question is, how does the Train Manager 'endorse' an e-ticket?

They can enter a note on it when they scan it. You won't see it, but customer services could scan it and would.

 

[Mark J]

I think you would be struggling to justify it not being honoured if you made no effort to ask the person sitting in it to move, though. If you did and they refused then there is potentially an issue (though wasn't avoiding liability there why the railway started making reservations free?)

Several TOCs do have a rather better policy, though, and that policy is likely to apply as you asked staff who didn't find you another seat. Which TOC was it?

Thanks for the replies.

Also with your previous post.

Would you really turf someone out of your reserved seat on an overcrowded, full and standing service, if they clearly needed it more than you.

For example, if someone was clearly disabled, or elderly, would someone really ask them to move just to claim your seat?

Although you are within your rights to do so, it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

My beef would be more with the TOC for failing to provide adequate capacity, which is a frequent issue on XC.

 

[londonbridge]

You may get some choice words, and that isn't pleasant, but I bet he didn't actually "do" the person concerned.

Indeed, everyone just sat there, some obviously stunned into silence as no one reacted any further.

 

[Haywain]

customer services could scan it and would

Customer services would be able to see the scan record and any notes by typing in the ticket number (UTN) when checking the validation database.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you really turf someone out of your reserved seat on an overcrowded, full and standing service, if they clearly needed it more than you.

For example, if someone was clearly disabled, or elderly, would someone really ask them to move just to claim your seat?

This Forum loves niches. Generally such people will have reserved their own, but the situation is similar to if they asked you to give up yours.

However if you do do that (either not take it or give it up because someone else needs it more), that's you being a kind person and there's no justification for you to be compensated.

 

[JBuchananGB]

My daughter tells me that she uses XC's app to reserve a seat on a train up to 10 minutes before departure, when travelling on an off-peak (non advance ticket). When she boards the train, she then politely requests whoever is in the seat to move and usually they do. Probably at the time they sat in the seat it was unreserved!

 

[800Travel]

My daughter tells me that she uses XC's app to reserve a seat on a train up to 10 minutes before departure, when travelling on an off-peak (non advance ticket). When she boards the train, she then politely requests whoever is in the seat to move and usually they do. Probably at the time they sat in the seat it was unreserved!

@JBuchananGB Please may you ask your daughter how she does that? I used to use the 10 min text service, but they removed that so I haven't been able to reserve seats at short notice since. I've had a look in the app and can't figure it out. Thank you

 

[wilsontown]

Thanks for the replies.

Also with your previous post.

Would you really turf someone out of your reserved seat on an overcrowded, full and standing service, if they clearly needed it more than you.

For example, if someone was clearly disabled, or elderly, would someone really ask them to move just to claim your seat?

Although you are within your rights to do so, it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

My beef would be more with the TOC for failing to provide adequate capacity, which is a frequent issue on XC.

Indeed, a few years ago I had a reserved seat on the North Wales coast, but on boarding it transpired that my seat was a priority seat occupied by an elderly lady with a walking frame. I sure as hell wasn't going to ask her to move. The problem there was with the TOC that thought it was appropriate to reserve random passengers into a priority seat.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Please may you ask your daughter how she does that?

It seems that my daughter used the 10 minute text service, which has been discontinued. Sorry to get your hopes up.

 

[island]

Just spotted the attached on the XC 'Passenger's Charter'.

The question is, how does the Train Manager 'endorse' an e-ticket?

They can enter a note to attach to the ticket on their app, or can handwrite a note on ticket stock.

 

[TUC]

The problem with asking someone to move on a heavily overcrowded train is that you then risk an argument and a escalating situation.

If, for example, a drunk football fan was occupying my booked seat, would I really risk a punch up over a seat, by asking them politely to move?

I did speak to the Train Manager but they basically implied not much could be done on an overcrowded train.

But did you even ask the passenger at all? Just to point you that you have that seat booked is the first step. Fine to go to the train manager if the passenger is unco-operative.