Seat Reservations

[Welshman]

I think it's time the farce of seat reservations was discontinued throughout the network.

The electronic displays above the seats on pendos and voyagers sometimes go unnoticed by people eager to settle in a seat before the train starts, and then there is the bad feeling later down the journey as a "rightful" owner claims that seat.

On one occasion, I had a most unpleasant experience on a pendo when the computer was down and the seat reservations had not come up. "My seat" was already occupied, and, realising there were no reservations, I simply sat elsewhere. At the next station, two aggressive young men boarded, and insisted I was sitting in "their" seats{!} and when I explained the reservations were down they became abusive and demanded I move. I refused, and when I told them there was someone in "my" seat, they told me I should order them to get out. I stayed my ground, and they threw themselves down at the table bay around me, and it made for a very unpleasant journey. When the TM came round, they objected loudly about me, and I pointed-out that no seats were shown as being reserved, and if she would care to ask those in my seat to move, I would move myself. She simply shrugged her shoulders and walked away!

This evening I returned to North Wales with an open ticket on the 1710 VT from Euston. As I was unsure which service I would use, I had not previously booked a seat, and, expecting the train to be busy, made a special point of being at Euston by 1630 and was one of the first to board the train when it came up on the boards about 1655, only to find the double voyager was almost fully-booked-up, and one or two were standing in the vestibules when it left. On looking round the train while were were climbing Camden Bank, I noticed some of the reserved seats were not taken up, and informed those standing that they should sit down. There was one woman in particular who was sitting in the aisle seat of a foursome round a table, with her coat and bags on the window seat. The seats opposite were occupied. Now the aisle seat where she was sitting was marked "Not reserved" while the window seat with all her baggage was marked as "reserved". I asked her if she would mind if I sat in the window seat, adding that I would move if someone claimed it, and she cleared all her things with bad grace. Needless to say, I was not disturbed by a rightful owner and I'm sure it was just coincidence that that seat became "available" when she alighted at Nuneaton!

Sorry to rant on, but the present system seems to be open to abuse and cause bad feelings. What's so wrong with "first come get the choice of seats?" I realise that advanced tickets need to be controlled in some way, but simply extend the system now used by ATW and Southern, where the actual train is specified, but not the seat.

 

[craigwilson]

My opinion is that in the absence of any announcement saying specifically that reservations did not count anymore, the reservation slip with your ticket should be sufficient proof - a reasonable person should move when presented with that.

That's what I'd do anyway...although I'm lucky in that I'm usually boarding at the terminus at either end (Euston or Manchester), so most of the time I don't have to try and shift someone.

 

[ashworth]

Last Saturday I was travelling from Chesterfield to Manchester on the EMT service that departs Chesterfield at 0818. I did have a reservation, but as is often the case on the Norwich-Liverpool route, there were no reservation tickets on the train. It was only a 2 car 158 and was already quite full, but I found a seat quite easily although not the one that should have been reserved for me. Incidentally my reserved seat was at a table which was occupied by a family of 4 and so it didn't seem fair to ask one of them to move.

When the train reached Sheffield there was chaos with the large numbers of passengers boarding and many people standing between there and Manchester. No announcements were made at any point in the journey to apologize for the lack of reservations. Many of the people getting on at Sheffield had reservations and some tried to insist that already seated passengers moved.
On the return journey, a very crowded 1838 from Manchester, there were reservation tickets, but I saw a number of people quickly remove them before sitting down, and bewildered passengers came looking for their seats but found no reservation tickets. I didn't see anyone actually ask anyone to move and there were a number of people standing.

I travel on this very busy route a number of times each year and regularly find that there are no reservations on the trains. This seems to be regularly the case with the trains that depart in both directions from Nottingham at approximately 0745 on Saturdays to both Liverpool and Norwich.

 

[chris89]

Don't agree on scraping Resevations. But i understand the problem on Pendo's and Voyagers the systems always seem to break (First time in about 7months last week it wasn't for me)

If the electronic system is down they should really place down the good old fashion paper slips. I have to admit when the 'system' has been down i have been quite lucky and no one in the seats i've got (Only effects from Wolverhampton) If their is an annoucement seat resevations don't count it's usally not until crewe and to late for the person who was where i was sitting.

As what welshman said one of my biggest pet hates, being people selfishly sitting in ailse seats with their bags next to them and refusing to move them.

At least from Edinburgh i am on quite quickly so no chance of any one else sitting in my seat.


Chris

 

[Geezertronic]

Don't agree on scraping Resevations. But i understand the problem on Pendo's and Voyagers the systems always seem to break (First time in about 7months last week it wasn't for me)

I have quite the opposite experience with the 390 system whereby it has only failed twice out of 50ish return journeys this year and during both journeys the TM announced the service as unreserved and apologised for it

 

[chris89]

Admitly i've only been on a Pendo once on the b'ham - Edinburgh service, and must have been a replacement for an broken down voyager as No resevations were kept, and said on the doors etc.

Just the voyagers seem to be quite dodgy overal i have noticed, with Partial system working or not at all :/

Chris

 

[Welshman]

My opinion is that in the absence of any announcement saying specifically that reservations did not count anymore, the reservation slip with your ticket should be sufficient proof - a reasonable person should move when presented with that.

That's what I'd do anyway...although I'm lucky in that I'm usually boarding at the terminus at either end (Euston or Manchester), so most of the time I don't have to try and shift someone.

Yes, but as in my first example above - when boarding at a station down the line and the carriage is already 80% full and there are no reservations marked, it's quite impractical to start asking people to move! [passenger "A" asks passenger "B", passenger "B" passenger "C" and so on!!].

 

[WestCoast]

The reservation system on the Pendolinos seem to be, in my experience, fairly reliable. That's not to say that they don't occasionally become defective, on my train last week they were working but the back light on the display wasn't working.

The Voyagers seem a little less reliable.

I've noticed the opposite, that people DO pay attention to these screens, people get on and seem to look left and right at displays as the Voyagers/Pendos have become commonplace. However, there will always be some people whole ignore the screens (and reservation labels) completely!

 

[trainosaurus]

The biggest gripe I have is with people that do have reservations not using them. You end up with a load of unoccupied 'reserved' seats.

I think things would be far simpler if the system was scrapped.

 

[gordonthemoron]

if the reservation is on an electronic display, it should only show until say 15 mins after departure

 

[island]

I think seat reservations should be kept, and enforced properly!

 

[WestCoast]

I think things would be far simpler if the system was scrapped.

It's fine to say that because it would make things simpler. But, if you're going on a long journey, say a long run on a HST, Pendolino or Voyager (these are the worst) the peace of mind that arises from ensuring that you can get a seat is a crucial factor fro some people in choosing to travel by train.

 

[roblondon]

Having travelled alot recently up and down the WC I can comment that most services have had plenty of seats available. Booking in advance you always get a reservation of course but I've always sat in the first seat that I liked. Occasionally a seemingly psychotic fellow passenger has come up and demanded to sit in "their" seat. Of course I just moved to an adjacent one albeit with a grimace.

I'd suggest abandoning reservations as a matter of course. They seem particularly unfair to those on expensive turn up and go tickets anyway. Reservations for those that want them could be sold as an optional extra and generate extra revenue.

 

[cuccir]

My opinion is that in the absence of any announcement saying specifically that reservations did not count anymore, the reservation slip with your ticket should be sufficient proof - a reasonable person should move when presented with that.

That's what I'd do anyway...although I'm lucky in that I'm usually boarding at the terminus at either end (Euston or Manchester), so most of the time I don't have to try and shift someone.

As Welshman pointed out, this is completely wrong headed. If there are no reservations showing, then there are no reservations on the train. Its probably my biggest bugbear on the rail when, on the all too frequent occasions that reservations fail, people try to move others from seats with do reserved display. Any reasonable person wouldn't try and make someone move...

As for scrapping: no, I wouldn't do that. As has been pointed out, people travelling long distance need seats and as at the moment we have a number of services which attempt to be both long and short distance (eg Cross Country), reservations can be very important.

 

[gordonthemoron]

one of my gripes with DB, is that if the reservations haven't been loaded, the electronic display says 'might be reserved'

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Its probably my biggest bugbear on the rail when, on the all too frequent occasions that reservations fail, people try to move others from seats with do reserved display. Any reasonable person wouldn't try and make someone move...

As for scrapping: no, I wouldn't do that. As has been pointed out, people travelling long distance need seats and as at the moment we have a number of services which attempt to be both long and short distance (eg Cross Country), reservations can be very important.

:roll: They might still try ask someone to move if the train (on which the reservations are "missing") is full and standing, particularly if (as you note in the second paragraph quoted above) the reservation holder is on a long distance journey (and/or infirm).

 

[me123]

I'd suggest abandoning reservations as a matter of course. They seem particularly unfair to those on expensive turn up and go tickets anyway. Reservations for those that want them could be sold as an optional extra and generate extra revenue.

"Those on expensive turn up and go tickets" have the opportunity to make a reservation when they buy their tickets, and I'm pretty sure it's free of charge for all services. For many people who buy tickets in advance (not necessarily Advance tickets), the seat reservations are essential. I'd want one from Glasgow to London (for example), because spending four hours standing doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun!

Of course, the people who turn up on the day don't have the opportunity to reserve a seat, but that's always been the case and probably always will be the case. It's the risk you take on some longer distance services. There's no way of reserving a seat on a train that's already started its journey back in Inverness or Penzance when you're boarding in York or Exeter.

The current system works fine, but train staff need to be more active in removing people from reserved seats who don't have a reservation. It's a simple issue; demand to see the reservation ticket and remove them if they don't have it. Obviously if the seat isn't occupied on departure, then that's a different case altogether. It might also be a good idea to start linking seat reservations to tickets so that people don't reserve seats on several trains with their tickets. They really should also enforce the rule with Advance ticketing that you must sit in your reserved seat; they get a lot of stick for it on here when they do, but enforcing the seat reservations rule more means that the reserved seats would mean that more reserved seats are occupied, and encourage more respect for the system.

 

[chris89]

one of my gripes with DB, is that if the reservations haven't been loaded, the electronic display says 'might be reserved'

Same thing is said on VT's Voyagers the past few times i've traveled with them.

Chris

 

[amcluesent]

Reservations are essential, given the 100%+ loading on many services.

However, this aspect of customer service is done very poorly by the ToCs.

The system is confusing, with archaic references to aisle/window, facing/back etc. rather than a simple sequential numbering for each carriage. Remember many travellers now can't speak English (some crew too...)

The seat numbers are not clear enough in the carriage given the ever shortening turn-around times and need to load peeps.

On ECML, the back of seat tickets are poorly printed. Often the 'From' station is overprinted on the dark background so you can't quickly walk along to spot a seat that you can use.

The WCML display system is confusing and falls down on the main objective of increasing seat utilisation across multiple journey segments. Non-booked passengers have no idea if or where they will have to relinquish the seat.

Things could be far, far better if the ToCs opened their booking database to smartphone app. developers via the interweb. I can easily see an app. that shows you seat availability for your journey in real-time and lets you 'bag' it even as you're walking along the platform.

 

[Eng274]

Generally reservations have been fairly reliable in my experience, and it is all too common for the dregs of the travelling public (not being biased against jakeys and chavs, just my opinion on those who do it!) to simply remove the reservation ticket and chuck it away.

The infallibility of the electronic system is definitely a worthwhile benefit, even if it does break down every once in a while. A broken system can be mended, a discarded reservation ticket is lost for the rest of the trip.

Reservations are crucial, especially on routes where it is possible for an intercity train is full when it leaves the terminus, thus rendering anybody else on subsequent stops unable to get a seat.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Personally (and this will probably cause Yorkie to have a heart attack) is that unless the train has been completely unreserved by the guard then if you are presented with someone with a reservation for your seat when you have been displaced by someone else then you should go elsewhere. It's not their problem that someone is sitting in your seat, it's yours and either you sort it or find an unreserved seat. Why should they be displaced as well because you can't sort it out? All you are doing by acting like that is exacerbating the problem.

 

[steve099]

This is definitely a tricky issue to consider. I travel on a mix of advance and walk-on fares, particularly on Virgin to/from London. I take advantage of any reservations when I have them on my Advances and where possible, tend to book a reservation with a Standard fare the day before. It should be noted that reservations may be booked accompanying any Standard fare as long as it is prior to, I think 6 or 8pm, the preceeding day.

The reason this should really be scrapped is because the majority of reservations accompany advance purchase tickets. By their very nature, they are cheaper than Standard fares. Nowhere else would someone pay up to 2, 3, 4 or more times more for their ticket to stand without a seat reservation. Granted, there'll always be a disparity in fares ie. discounted travel, advance purchase etc. but removing the reservation system will remove the inherent bias given towards advance ticket holders.

 

[gordonthemoron]

how about, advance ticket holders have to pay extra for their reservation but other ticket holders get them complimentary?

 

[Welshman]

If reservations are now crucial on busy services, perhaps we have to go the way of some French and Italian railways and make them compulsory for all express services.

But that would be a pity, as it would remove the "turn-up and go" advantage of our system. Not everyone can book in advance. I suppose some, holding an open ticket and knowing they will use one of three or so trains will book reservations on all three just to keep their options open. But this is exactly what causes some of the present problems, so I'm not advocating this approach!!

It would help to know the TOCs' policy on this. I know advanced tickets are quota controlled, but do they continue issuing reservations to open-ticket holders until the train is fully reserved? Or do they make a point of always leaving one carriage or so unreserved, regardless? For example, my travels on the EC main line showed me the buffet car was usually unreserved, and on a busy train those without reservations made a bee line for that. But I never saw that officially announced anywhere, so was it just co-incidence that the reservations had not got that far, or was it deliberate policy?

If it is policy to leave a carriage or part of one unreserved, it would be useful were that announced, if not in timetables, then at least on information boards at departure stations. The at least there would not be the frustration of making the effort to be at the station in good time, wandering through several coaches and conflicting with others boarding and finding their seats, and still ending up standing in the vestibule!!

 

[gordonthemoron]

On East Coast, I think that coach B isn't reserved aswell

 

[alloneword100]

Having travelled alot recently up and down the WC I can comment that most services have had plenty of seats available. Booking in advance you always get a reservation of course but I've always sat in the first seat that I liked. Occasionally a seemingly psychotic fellow passenger has come up and demanded to sit in "their" seat. Of course I just moved to an adjacent one albeit with a grimace.

You mean that, even though there are plenty of unreserved seats, you couldn't be bothered to pick one of those and sat in a reserved one? If so, the passenger who told you to move out of 'their' seat could quite probably be me; and I would have done it to teach you some manners...

 

[WestCoast]

Having travelled alot recently up and down the WC I can comment that most services have had plenty of seats available. Booking in advance you always get a reservation of course but I've always sat in the first seat that I liked. Occasionally a seemingly psychotic fellow passenger has come up and demanded to sit in "their" seat. Of course I just moved to an adjacent one albeit with a grimace.

That isn't good manners at all, and the thought that "most services" are not busy on VWC doesn't apply to London - Glasgow at all. I have struggled to find a seat many times on this route.

Some people reserve certain seats for a certain reasons, they become travel sick when going backwards, they want a window view (not always possible to get on a Pendo), they want to sit in the quiet zone, they want to be near a power point/luggage rack/toilet/companions/their children. So they are not psychotic at all...

 

[NotScheduled]

I'm a very active long journey traveller. I really enjoy my train journeys and make a lot of use out of them. I generally always reserve seats when I can, and often make use of advance tickets, so that I can enjoy my journey. Mostly there are seats available anyway, but it's nice to be able to get on, go to my seat and not worry about desperately trying to get to a seat pr worry about having to stand for 3 hours, which isnt overly pleasant.

I must admit I would use the railways a lot less without reservations, at least on services which are near-full or full. Again, I spend a lot on advance tickets where improbably wouldn't travel at all if they were not an option.

I think that they are completely fair - everyone, no matter what ticket, has the opportunity to reserve up to a short period before departure. Unreserved coaches are generally always left for turn up and go people. if people reserve and don't turn up, those become available too. Those joining a busy service later can stand a chance to get a seat, rather than having to stand every time. Good seat usage can be made where reservations stack optimally. Person A books between S1 and s2, person B gets the seat between S3 and S4 and so on. This can be quite efficient.

Furthermore, it's nice to know what sort of a journey you will have. I like a quiet journey where I can sleep along with enjoying the countryside views. Ive never had a problem on First Great Western and the system seems to work well.

Plus, it helps to spread people out. If a train is fully booked, I'll pick an earlier one, rather than if I couldn't book, hoped for the best and ended up making a busy train busier. This distribution of people surely helps travellers and the TOCs?

Reservations give people peace of mind, happy journeys, distribute people and help keep trains full but not overfull, make it fairer for people that join later and make efficient usage of seats, while still leaving room for people turning up and going and enabling anyone to book. I don't see any disadvantages?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oops! Posting from the train seemed to result in it double posting!

 

[mickey]

if the reservation is on an electronic display, it should only show until say 15 mins after departure

But how does it know whether the person has turned up? And what would it say instead, because if it just goes off people will assume it's broken.

how about, advance ticket holders have to pay extra for their reservation but other ticket holders get them complimentary?

You can't charge an extra fee for something that's compulsory - we've learnt that from budget airlines, where 'headline' fares have to include all unavoidable fees and charges.

I suppose some, holding an open ticket and knowing they will use one of three or so trains will book reservations on all three just to keep their options open.

How many people actually do this? It's only possible by going to the station two or three times - no ticket office or phone agent will allow you to book two reservations with the same ticket, and I doubt most people can be bothered.

It would help to know the TOCs' policy on this. I know advanced tickets are quota controlled, but do they continue issuing reservations to open-ticket holders until the train is fully reserved? Or do they make a point of always leaving one carriage or so unreserved, regardless?

They have to leave a proportion of standard class seats unreserved. On pendolinos this is always coach E. The exception is if they mark the service 'reservation compulsory' in timetables, in which case they can book every seat, but afaik no one actually does this any more. I would like to see more 'reservation recommended' markings though, as this would clearly warn people they might not get a seat if they didn't make one.

If it is policy to leave a carriage or part of one unreserved, it would be useful were that announced, if not in timetables, then at least on information boards at departure stations.

On busy services the TM often announces it on departure.

Plus, it helps to spread people out.

Well it's supposed to. Some TOCs, such as TPE, put all reservations in a clump, which does cause problems at intermediate stations when people realise they have to move down the platform. Spreading them out would be better.

Personally I don't always use my reserved seat, but I will always move if someone tells me I'm in theirs. If getting on at an intermediate station, however, I will usually go down the carriage looking for seats that are clearly unoccupied despite being reserved - and nearly always find at least one.

 

[Greenback]

I don't think we should abandon seat reservations just because a few people mess it up! The ability to reserve seats is essential for long distance journeys, and without it some people may simply just not travel.

Problems arise simply because some people are just not reasonable or considerate - this often revolves around table seats which are at a premium these days, and liked by groups and those who wish to work at a proper table. In order to work properly, the system relies on people using their common sense, reading the reservation and moving if they are occupying someone else's seat. In my experience, the majority of people do move if asked.

The problem with people occupying two seats would not be solved by abolishing reservations. This can happen on all trains. On Tuesday two seats were occupied by a set of golf clubs on an unreserveable 153 to Swansea. In fairness, luggage facilities on 153's are pretty poor, and it was exacerbated by having pushchairs aboard as well!