Secondman duties

[citycat]

Just thinking back to childhood spotting at Kings Cross in the 70’s. Did the Secondman couple and uncouple the loco at termini or was there a dedicated shunter on hand to do it?

While we’re on the subject, what were the exact duties of a Secondman, especially on West coast electrics and later, HST’s, where there was no boiler to maintain?

 

[trebor79]

Just a sop to the unions I guess.

 

[trebor79]

There was some rule later on that anything doing 100mph or more had to have a secondman.

 

[randyrippley]

someone had to brew the drivers tea...

 

[big all]

second man when
more than 8 hours
no meal break
engineers work
freight train
light loco
no coupling duties for southern secondmen except loco to loco

 

[OuterDistant]

Wasn't the secondman chiefly there to assist in observing signals, particularly before AWS was widespread? Hence the 100mph stipulation.

Also, ISTR reading somewhere that they were required on overnight trains for similar reasons.

 

[big all]

Wasn't the secondman chiefly there to assist in observing signals, particularly before AWS was widespread? Hence the 100mph stipulation.

Also, ISTR reading somewhere that they were required on overnight trains for similar reasons.

it was a way to perpetuate the training and promotion route after the fireman was no longer needed to shovel coal
a driver is always responsible so a secondman observing signals was off course as a help but the driver needed to trust the judgement off the secondman who needed to know the dummy he was looking at was applicable to there train

 

[Branch line]

Was being a secondman also a route to eventually becoming a driver ? (Sorry for the pun)

 

[furnessvale]

Was being a secondman also a route to eventually becoming a driver ? (Sorry for the pun)

Footplate line of promotion was always separate.

Cleaner, passed cleaner, fireman, passed fireman, driver.

 

[Highlandspring]

And in diesel days until 1988 when the Traincrew Agreement swept it all away...
Traction trainee - Secondman (Driver’s Assistant) - Passed Secondman - Driver

 

[AndrewE]

Except on the Mersey Railway and London Underground where I believe it was guard to driver. This also affected the union membership, as I think the drivers on those railways stayed in the NUR.

 

[Branch line]

I think Highlandspring has answered my question, Howevever I did get confused a little as I remember the secondman in cab of diesel but also remember second man in rear cab of freight trains but driver alone, presumably taking on role of guard when brake vans were phased out.

 

[furnessvale]

I think Highlandspring has answered my question, Howevever I did get confused a little as I remember the secondman in cab of diesel but also remember second man in rear cab of freight trains but driver alone, presumably taking on role of guard when brake vans were phased out.

The other way round. The secondman got his p45 and the guard eventually graduated to the back cab. Caused a lot of ill feeling in the footplate grade at the time.

 

[Ken H]

I think Highlandspring has answered my question, Howevever I did get confused a little as I remember the secondman in cab of diesel but also remember second man in rear cab of freight trains but driver alone, presumably taking on role of guard when brake vans were phased out.

the back cab guy was the guard. on fitted freight trains there was no need of a guards/brake van so they went in the back cab
Wasnt there a plan to have a special container at the back of container trains that was a guards office? but the ride was so rough there was a danger of injuring guards.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

the back cab guy was the guard. on fitted freight trains there was no need of a guards/brake van so they went in the back cab
Wasnt there a plan to have a special container at the back of container trains that was a guards office? but the ride was so rough there was a danger of injuring guards.

Early Freightliner workings had full (ex passenger) brake vehicles for the guard , this was very awkward for shunting etc , as well as adding dead weight , so the boffins came up with a 10 ft modular "caboose" container which was tried on a few routes. Utter disaster and soon stopped. One was "found" in Stratford Freightliner terminal and was restored and resides somewhere in the York NRM collection.

 

[Trackman]

The 100mph working rule:
I remember it as the 110mph rule.
I'm sure it was a driver who acted who acted as a 'secondman' if that makes any sense.

 

[big all]

wasnt it double manned above a ton further amended a bit later to be single manned up to 110

 

[whoosh]

There was some rule later on that anything doing 100mph or more had to have a secondman.

The 100mph working rule:
I remember it as the 110mph rule.
I'm sure it was a driver who acted who acted as a 'secondman' if that makes any sense.

It was a second Driver who was required above 100mph, which was later renegotiated to 110mph.

 

[citycat]

Thanks for all the replies. However, we really need to hear from someone who started their career on the footplate as a secondman, and who can tell us what their day to day duties would be on a typical shift in a loco.

 

[big all]

buy aquire a tea can[urgent requirement]
set the headcode
cut in the aws
sweep the cab
make the tea
learn from the driver
observe signals
when the driver has confidence in you he will start to trust your judgement full and trust when you say ok to set back we have the dummy
then as he trusts you more will let you take control when shunting

 

[Eyersey468]

At the preserved railway I volunteer at we have a second man on the diesel shunter, partly as there's no dead man's handle so need someone that can step in if anything happens to the driver, also to observe round the left hand side of the loco as you can't see from the drivers side.