Securing Private Areas on FCC EMUs

[oversteer]

**Mod Notice - This thread has been separated from a thread in the "Prosecutions & Disputes" area (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78208)**

Methinks FCC need to prevent access to this area here. It's obvious that they are making an example of people such as the OP in the hope that word gets round and it deters others

Personally, I think it is crazy that "the railways" try to secure an area with a key/lump of metal that can be easily bought off the Internet, then have to rely on prosecution to enforce that security!

Why can't they just put proper locks in, secure locks with restricted blanks, serially numbered keys etc. Yes there is a cost, but if the area needs to be secure, so be it. As said in the thread it is only a matter of time before someone does something silly in a cab.

 

[jon0844]

There has to be emergency access as it has the safety equipment in there, so a permanent lock would probably be impossible (illegal?).

The best solution, possible the ONLY solution, is to try and stop this practice and catch the people with keys. You'd still need the 'break glass to open' handles, but I doubt anyone is doing that to gain entry. If they are, that's another ballgame.

Is it perhaps time to look at other ways to lock the doors, using swipecards (which would log entry) or even mechanical pin pads? I guess the answer is that this will cost a LOT more than simply trying to nip the problem in the bud with a few people sent to court, who have little to no defence.

Now for new rolling stock, I'd certainly recommend a revision of security systems.

 

[Ediswan]

The best solution, possible the ONLY solution, is to try and stop this practice and catch the people with keys.

Do you actually need a key to open the door ? From the description, it seems like anything that will jam in the hole would work.

Would CCTV show who opened a door ?

 

[jon0844]

Without going on and looking I can't say.

I do hope that we don't conclude FCC is at fault for not having a secure enough door, as against saying people are wrong to go into a restricted area. Perhaps more can be done, like new stickers that don't disappear if the door is left open, but there has to come a time where people accept their own responsibilities.

CCTV at the opposite end of the carriage might capture someone opening the door. The camera at the end, nearest the door, would then capture the face of the person approaching.

The same CCTV footage might be examined on previous days, to show a pattern and potentially capture the people who might put in a defence of not being aware as the door was open and they'd never done it before as having done so before.

If I was FCC, and had set up a sting with BTP, I'd have been watching over a period of time to establish there was a problem and perhaps already have gathered CCTV evidence before going in for the kill.

 

[Dave1987]

21 keys or BR1A keys as they used to be known are in wide circulation. Anyone who has ever worked on a heritage railway has probably been issued with one of them. All current mainline traction use 21 keys or carriage/T keys to secure everything on the train be that cabs or equipment cupboards.

I severely doubt FCC staff leave these doors unlocked. I think that people who travel on these trains have clearly obtained access to a 21 key probably through ebay. If lots of people are aware of how to unlock that sliding door it is entirely possible that many commuters have got themselves a 21 key off of ebay so they can unlock this door everyday.

The key point here is that the OP has entered a part of the train they know is not a public area. As I have said before that sliding door the OP went through is supposed to be locked to prevent access to the cab and emergency equipment. I believe the signs are fairly prominant indicating it is not a public area.

 

[jon0844]

Either that or they are easily forced. Suggestions that there is some kind of secret society that has a rota for members with keys to board each and every peak train seem to be flights of fancy.

The fact there was a sting operation also suggests FCC know there is a problem with the doors but rather than fixing it it's easier for them to just nick a few people standing where they shouldn't.

They might be easily forced, but I don't think there has to be a special secret society in place or a rota.. more like one person gets a key, and it grows from there; 'hey mate, how did you get in there?', 'I got a key from eBay, there's loads on there and they only cost £xx. Much better than being cramped in there isn't it?'.

When I commuted for a long time on the same train (the 0844, hence my username) I saw the same people day in, day out - all sitting usually in the same seat/area. In our case, first class at the rear end of an 8-car 365, as it was declassified. One Christmas, one person in the group came along with cake, christmas crackers and a bottle of champagne (yes, in the morning) and we had a mini party - which even included an RPI that had to refuse the offer of a drink!

So, it wouldn't be impossible for there to be the same people doing it on at least one individual service almost every day. Don't be surprised to learn that while a lot of commuters never talk to each other, it doesn't take much for them to do so (say, one day when there's disruption and people begin to chat/unite) and then because they see each other regularly after, do form some sort of unofficial 'pact'.

 

[Clip]

You don't even need any railway issued key to open the locks but I'm not telling you how as its too simple.

The 21 key has to be a quite universal key or else on train staff would end up carrying loads along with all the other tat needed day to day.

The point and only point here is that people are in an area that they are not allowed and are forcing open the doors themselves and commiting bye law offences and it needs to stop. Now.

 

[jon0844]

Bring back the death penalty.

 

[Mojo]

ls there no chance that an intruder alarm could be fitted, which would alert the driver or any non-active cab doors or other secure panels being open? Stock l am familiar with has this, which sounds an alert in the active cab.

 

[jon0844]

That's a good idea. There would need to be a way to disable the alarm though, for the sake of staff who might legally go in there - and presumably not disabled with a key.

 

[Monty]

ls there no chance that an intruder alarm could be fitted, which would alert the driver or any non-active cab doors or other secure panels being open? Stock l am familiar with has this, which sounds an alert in the active cab.

You could do that with stock on DOO routes I suppose, if it's guard worked stock however.. What could pose a problem is that it would get old real fast for the driver when alarm or buzzer to go off everytime the guard goes into the back cab.

 

[Clip]

No need for the death penalty- would be too good for some of them - a few prosecutions will suffice.

And for the clever poster who suggested more carriages early - they are at the max length allowed for the platforms they call at unless you want to pay for the cost of boring longer tunnels and signalling and platforms that would be needed if at all possible.

 

[island]

That's a good idea. There would need to be a way to disable the alarm though, for the sake of staff who might legally go in there - and presumably not disabled with a key.

A T-key switch should do it

 

[Mojo]

You could do that with stock on DOO routes I suppose, if it's guard worked stock however.. What could pose a problem is that it would get old real fast for the driver when alarm or buzzer to go off everytime the guard goes into the back cab.

Yes, l was thinking of DOO routes, as it wouldn't be as essential on routes with guards. The stock which l am familiar with has this, but the trains only have one member of staff on board. lf the alarm does go off, then someone would go and investigate.

 

[Clip]

Yes, l was thinking of DOO routes, as it wouldn't be as essential on routes with guards. The stock which l am familiar with has this, but the trains only have one member of staff on board. lf the alarm does go off, then someone would go and investigate.

Magic. Imagine the delays to service once the scrotes of the world find out that neat little trick

 

[Dave1987]

I dont think it would be very practical to put an alarm on a cab door. As if you are approaching a red and the door alarm goes off it is going to distract you from the red. Buzzer for the AWS and ADD alarm are needed but you dont want anything else that could distract the driver at crucial points. Signallers arent supposed to try and contact the driver when he/she is approaching a red.

I think the most appropriate course of action is to take action against anyone caught in an area they shouldn't be in. Once word gets around of the consiquences of being caught then people will stop doing it. Unfortunately that means making an example out of people like the OP. Sorry people but it seems the least expensive and most practical way of detering passengers from doing this.

 

[lonogrol]

Magic. Imagine the delays to service once the scrotes of the world find out that neat little trick

It's fitted to most, if not all, Underground trains and there are hardly ever delays as a result of this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I dont think it would be very practical to put an alarm on a cab door.

London Underground have it on their trains and it's not considered unpractical. I'd argue it's a safety feature to prevent people going in unattended cabs and other secure cupboards. Imagine the potential of a suspect package being left in an unattended middle cab which would hardly ever be checked?

 

[Dave1987]

What, you mean like how it's fitted to most, if not all, Underground trains and there are hardly ever delays?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


London Underground have it on their trains and it's not considered unpractical. More an essential safety feature to prevent people going in unattended cabs and other secure cupboards.

London Underground is totally different to a mainline railway. I think it would be very very expensive to fit to all trains. And it doesnt seem to be a widespread problem either. And as I said you dont want another alarm to distract the driver except what is neccessary ie AWS/ADD/PASS COMM

 

[lonogrol]

London Underground is totally different to a mainline railway. I think it would be very very expensive to fit to all trains. And it doesnt seem to be a widespread problem either. And as I said you dont want another alarm to distract the driver except what is neccessary ie AWS/ADD/PASS COMM

It is, but what's the difference in your case? On the majority of lines there are still people, manually driving trains, potentially up to red signals. The intruder alarm is hardly distracting; it makes a sound that does not require a response, but can be silenced on the press of a single button.

 

[Dave1987]

It is, but what's the difference in your case? On the majority of lines there are still people, manually driving trains, potentially up to red signals. The intruder alarm is hardly distracting; it makes a sound that does not require a response, but can be silenced on the press of a single button.

Well time will tell if the industry feel it is neccessary.

 

[Clip]

It's fitted to most, if not all, Underground trains and there are hardly ever delays as a result of this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

London Underground have it on their trains and it's not considered unpractical. I'd argue it's a safety feature to prevent people going in unattended cabs and other secure cupboards. Imagine the potential of a suspect package being left in an unattended middle cab which would hardly ever be checked?

Is the key to open the cab drivers door from inside the carriage a universal lock and key which opens many other things on the underground? And apart from drivers and maybe their managers allowed in there?

Remember this is a small vestibule area before the drivers cab which has another door. It can be used by members of the railway without interfering with the driver or their duties.

And iirc the lock to driver cabs on all units when entering from the saloon are a doifferent key and lock and only issued to drivers and management.

There is no way around it I'm afraid. People are not allowed in this area.

Why can some of you just not accept this without trying to find excuses or fixes for something that should not be a problem

 

[Mojo]

Is the key to open the cab drivers door from inside the carriage a universal lock and key which opens many other things on the underground? And apart from drivers and maybe their managers allowed in there?

I know you weren't quoting me; but yes it is a universal key and there is also an emergency release to allow anyone to get in; either a break glass or ring pull type situation.

 

[GadgetMan]

Do you necessarily need a key to get to the other side of that door?

Not familiar with 313s, but if they are similar to 150s then it is possible the first passenger to access the area is doing so through the local (exterior) door then opening the door in question using the plain handle on non-public side.

It wouldn't take long for other passengers to learn from one another.

 

[Squaddie]

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why so many contributors are so certain that passengers must have deliberately obtained a key to open these doors. As someone said earlier, these are just people trying to get to work, not rail enthusiasts, and it would probably never occur to them that such a thing was even possible. It is far more likely that the doors were simply open by careless employees or had broken locks.

I'd be tempted to let it go to court. Most magistrates would take a very dim view of FCC's decision to prosecute these passengers rather than just asking them to move and shutting the door.

 

[GadgetMan]

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why so many contributors are so certain that passengers must have deliberately obtained a key to open these doors. As someone said earlier, these are just people trying to get to work, not rail enthusiasts, and it would probably never occur to them that such a thing was even possible. It is far more likely that the doors were simply open by careless employees or had broken locks.

I'd be tempted to let it go to court. Most magistrates would take a very dim view of FCC's decision to prosecute these passengers rather than just asking them to move and shutting the door.

If the number of trains affected was as consistent as the OP makes out, then I find it hard to believe that every driver on that route is negligent enough to leave the door insecure. Also just as difficult to believe the door locks are faulty/missing on every unit.

 

[Clip]

I know you weren't quoting me; but yes it is a universal key and there is also an emergency release to allow anyone to get in; either a break glass or ring pull type situation.

I knew about the break glass bit but not the key - will check the lock when I next get on.

Now they have alarms, but do passengers know? I didn't and I use the tube every day just about.

Now, tube trains are just as packed in the morning yet I have never heard of a case of people getting in the back cab to alleviate overcrowding.

If they did,alarm or not, what would the underground do to those people? Just ask them to move out the drivers cab and carry on as normal?

 

[Mojo]

I knew about the break glass bit but not the key - will check the lock when I next get on.

http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/object/link.html?IXinv=1998/9970

If they did,alarm or not, what would the underground do to those people? Just ask them to move out the drivers cab and carry on as normal?

In my situation I'd go back and check, or request a member of station staff checks (to avoid delay); it could be someone out to cause mischief.

 

[Dave1987]

Do you necessarily need a key to get to the other side of that door?

Not familiar with 313s, but if they are similar to 150s then it is possible the first passenger to access the area is doing so through the local (exterior) door then opening the door in question using the plain handle on non-public side.

It wouldn't take long for other passengers to learn from one another.

On a 315 you need a carriage key to open the external door on the vestibule so a passenger could not of easily obtained access to the vestibule without a carriage key or a 21 key. Also I agree with the other post that says it is highly unlikely that FCC staff would leave multiple interior cab doors unlocked or that multiple locks were broken.

 

[Clip]

http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/object/link.html?IXinv=1998/9970


In my situation I'd go back and check, or request a member of station staff checks (to avoid delay); it could be someone out to cause mischief.

And what would lul do if this was a constant problem of people being in there?

Would they then prosecute?

 

[Fare-Cop]

On a 315 you need a carriage key to open the external door on the vestibule so a passenger could not of easily obtained access to the vestibule without a carriage key or a 21 key. Also I agree with the other post that says it is highly unlikely that FCC staff would leave multiple interior cab doors unlocked or that multiple locks were broken.

Sadly, I've just checked a well-known auction site and I can buy one of these keys for less than a fiver right now!!

( I have sent a message to that site management by the way. )