Senior Railcard versus ALR

[Midlandman]

This question may have been posted elsewhere, if so I apologise for the repetition. My birthday this year having seen me eligible for a Senior Railcard, I immediately had plans to get my first All Line Rover. My question arises from the ALR restrictions (not valid into certain major stations by certain operators before 10.00) and those of the railcard (not valid anywhere in the South East Network Card area in the morning peak - times unspecified, vary by route). It seems to me that I can use a full-fare ALR anytime I like subject to avoiding the ten stations named in the restrictions, but if I use my railcard I can't use it in the SE Network area before off-peak fares come into use, despite the fact that I'm using the same ticket. Is this correct, or do the ALR restrictions override the railcard ones?
A secondary question, if my reading of the restrictions is correct is, does anyone know what time the peak finishes on the Waterloo-Exeter route?

 

[fenview]

I queried this in 2010 and received this response from [email protected]:

"The All-Line Rail Rover ticket allows unlimited travel on for 7 or 14 consecutive days. Railcard discount is available to Senior Railcard holders. However, the Railcard discount isn’t available on tickets for travel during the morning rush hour (peak time), Monday to Friday (not including Public Holidays) when journeys are made wholly within the London and South East area."
(This was before the restrictions on early arrivals/departures at Kings Cross, Euston, New St. etc were introduced).

Note that it only applies to journeys WHOLLY within the London and South East area.

It may be best to write to [email protected] with the time of the journey you want to make, and ask them what they say the position is.

 

[yorkie]

...but if I use my railcard I can't use it in the SE Network area before off-peak fares come into use...

The official rule is that the Railcard can't be used for journeys wholly within the Network Area, until the Off Peak Day Return (CDR) becomes valid.

So, if your journey is wholly within the Network Area, simply use any booking site to see what a valid itinerary would be, alternatively use brfares.com to see the validity for the CDR.

..., does anyone know what time the peak finishes on the Waterloo-Exeter...

As above, so if your journey is Waterloo - Exeter then the answer is here, so 0820 is the first train for that journey. It's a shame your journey isn't Waterloo - Newton Abbot, or Peterborough - Exeter, or Paddington - Exeter, as if it was, there would be no time restriction whatsoever...

 

[IanD]

You just need to ensure that your peak journeys are not wholly within the south east. So instead of Waterloo-Exeter go Waterloo-Polsoe Bridge or Exeter St Thomas or anywhere outside the NSE area.

I think that particular restriction is very difficult to enforce unless you are heading to Kent but even then you could argue you're on your way to Bristol via the "scenic" route!

 

[yorkie]

I agree it is difficult to enforce, but we should be careful what is said on an open forum, so I've removed part of the previous post.

 

[Midlandman]

Thanks for the info, everyone. Yorkie, I think I got a PM from you before you removed part of your post. The earliest train I could catch from Waterloo is the 1020 anyway (assuming LM and Chiltern are on time). It's good to have confirmation of what I thought, I may try and include some of my old haunts in Kent, in which case the NSE restrictions could become an issue.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the info, everyone. Yorkie, I think I got a PM from you before you removed part of your post.

It was part of someone else's post which I removed.

The earliest train I could catch from Waterloo is the 1020 anyway (assuming LM and Chiltern are on time).

So your journey is actually involving LM and Chiltern, so it doesn't start at Waterloo? In that case, are you sure the journey is wholly within the Network Area?

 

[Midlandman]

No, it isn't, but I sort of worried that I'd be on a Waterloo-Exeter train and, using an All Line Rover, wouldn't have any proof that, for the sake of argument, I'd begun my trip at Crewe (or wherever). However, if the cutoff for the Exeter line is 0820, I've no worries, thanks.

 

[yorkie]

No, it isn't, but I sort of worried that I'd be on a Waterloo-Exeter train and, using an All Line Rover, wouldn't have any proof that, for the sake of argument, I'd begun my trip at Crewe (or wherever).

There is no requirement to prove your journey commenced at (say) Crewe. I would be surprised if you were even asked, and even more shocked if someone asked for 'proof' (how could there even be any proof?).

On the contrary, it would be up to the rail industry to prove otherwise.

However, if the cutoff for the Exeter line is 0820, I've no worries, thanks.

Waterloo - Exeter was mentioned so I gave the example that the first valid train for a Waterloo - Exeter journey is 0820. Your journey is not Waterloo - Exeter, so that does not apply.

If your journey is wholly within the Network Area, simply use any booking site to see what a valid itinerary would be, alternatively use brfares.com to see the validity for the CDR.

If your journey is not wholly within the Network Area, there is no time restriction, other than those described in the T&Cs of the All Line Rover (which, again, mean what they say, and nothing more!)

 

[Sleepy]

Of course do not buy and travel straight away as time purchased printed on ticket !

 

[Deerfold]

Of course do not buy and travel straight away as time purchased printed on ticket !

If the OP is starting outside the network area that shouldn't be a problem - and could even help them show where they started.

 

[Midlandman]

Of course do not buy and travel straight away as time purchased printed on ticket !

The whole point is that I'll be on an All Line Rover, which won't show where I started.

 

[jkdd77]

Whilst I obviously don't condone fare evasion, I wonder what the correct remedy would be for a passenger using a senior-railcard discounted ALR for travel wholly within the Network Area at a time when it is not valid?

NRCoC Condition 12(a) provides for an excess fare, and 12(b) provides for a Penalty Fare in certain circumstances, and I'm guessing that (b) would apply here, taking account of condition 5 of the Senior Railcard conditions: http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/using-your-card/railcard-terms-conditions.
Even then, there is the question of how the fare or PF is to be calculated, especially if a passenger has followed a route which is not a 'permitted route' for a through ticket for the journey actually made.

Looking at the rather vague railcard condition 6 relating to time restrictions, I'm not entirely clearly whether the time restriction applies to advance tickets, nor whether the corresponding CDR should still be used to determine railcard-discounted ALR validity if a passenger is following a route not permitted by the CDR.

I can think of at least one way to circumvent the restriction with relative ease, given that there are no route restrictions on an ALR journey; however, this would involve criminal fraudulent misrepresentation, so I won't say any more on the topic.

 

[Seacook]

No, it isn't, but I sort of worried that I'd be on a Waterloo-Exeter train and, using an All Line Rover, wouldn't have any proof that, for the sake of argument, I'd begun my trip at Crewe (or wherever). However, if the cutoff for the Exeter line is 0820, I've no worries, thanks.

Leaving aside the question of where the burden of proof lies, it would not be too difficult to take a photograph of the departure board at your starting station and show that.