Seven pounds for ten minutes next to Flying Scotsman?

[Trainlog]

I had a feeling that the minute i saw this come up on Ianvisits that it would be a topic on this Thread!

To put it like this, when I have been around mainline steam whether it be spotting them on the mainline or occasionally going on a railtour behind one at Christmas, the best time to see steam in a terminal is at night. About 5 years ago I came off the Lyndum faire railtour at Kings cross and one of things that stuck with me the most was watching Royal Scot let off steam in a moderately lit Terminal on a Cold winter night, If you want to see Scotsman that would make a great photo!

But for the event itself, it doesn't look like you are getting the best out of your money. Its essentially seeing Scotsman but probably getting 8 more minutes rather than the 2 you could get seeing it at Kings X at any other time. If they went for the kind of experience which you got at Old Oak common 111 where you could look at the footplate and depending on which locos where allowed to, sound the whistle (though i couldn't see that part happening at Kings Cross) then i would think it would be worth doing.

If you are near the London area and want to see steam, Just get the train to East Grinstead (yes i know its in Sussex but its not too long a journey from London) and see the Bluebell railway's Giants of steam gala instead which is on the same weekend.

 

[JustPassingBy]

As much as I dislike all the hype around FS (and all that goes with it - idiot trespassers and the like...), I think NRM are broadly right in what they are doing.
There is a whole generation of young people who have no idea that you could have a train that has no electronics* in it which can travel at 125mph and oozes heat, steam, dirt, noise in a way that all sanitised modern trains don't.
FS is a celebrity for sure but that's what most young people respond to. If it get's a percentage of them to visit a heritage railway to see some more steam, then it has done its job well.

*I assume it has some electronics in it now for the various safety systems.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But will it be steaming or just on static "dead" display?

 

[Blinkbonny]

On balance, I'm in favour of it. I think it's expensive for what it is, and a great shame there's not even a discount for children. But if people are willing to pay it - and having witnessed too much tomfoolery around the Scotsman passing - then fair enough. Though, as is asked above - just how many other people are you expected to share your ten minutes with? And will people be ushered along after their time is up?

My greatest reservation would be the setting of a precedent for other engines. I have spent many a happy hour (and many a pound!) travelling to see visiting engines at main-line locations. I would hate for this to be the thin end of a wedge.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

what's that? I have no idea so why will little Johnnie?

Why does this board and enthusiasts generally hate Flying Scotsman. Can someone explain it?

I wouldn't say I "hate" it, and despite my cynical post earlier I don't really have a problem with this plan- if people are happy to go and pay the fee to have their Flying Scotsman selfie, all power to 'em...

I do think that FS rather steals the limelight at times, and in the past has led to stupid behaviour from a minority of individuals, but if it gets more people interested in railways then I won't judge it too harshly. I might roll my eyes at the foamers a bit, but if people can't take a bit of light mockery they've picked the wrong hobby!

 

[Trainlog]

On balance, I'm in favour of it. I think it's expensive for what it is, and a great shame there's not even a discount for children. But if people are willing to pay it - and having witnessed too much tomfoolery around the Scotsman passing - then fair enough. Though, as is asked above - just how many other people are you expected to share your ten minutes with? And will people be ushered along after their time is up?

My greatest reservation would be the setting of a precedent for other engines. I have spent many a happy hour (and many a pound!) travelling to see visiting engines at main-line locations. I would hate for this to be the thin end of a wedge.

I would hope not as typically any other loco is rather easy to get up close to seeing when its in a terminal or destination station. Typically as most railtours aren't noticed by the public the most you are going to get is 10 people standing around who weren't travelling on the railtour to see any other loco than Scotsman. Most of the time railtours get in so late they wouldn't break the £50 mark if they did this to any other loco. Sometimes even after 8pm is too late for a lot of people to see Scotsman as i saw it at Finsbury park at that time once and there was no one else there which i was amazed by seeming as it wasn't too late in the grand scheme of things.

 

[pdeaves]

'The public' (and no doubt some enthusiasts) do dumb stuff when Flying Scotsman is around. Recognising that and allowing people to see it in a controlled manner is, in my view, a better way forward.

 

[Kite159]

smart business really, fleece punters to raise money for the museum. Wonder if they'll park a train on platform 7, or just have security chasing "freeloaders" away all day?

It would make sense to park something on platform 7 if platform space allows, but I suspect they will have some bouncers ready to pounce if someone is spotted walking up to the end of the other platforms. Hopefully it won't cause too many issues if the usual ECML/Thameslink/Moorgate collapse happens with a platform taken out of use

I presume access to P8 from P9 will also be blocked off.

 

[ComUtoR]

eh? Why do posters here ( and enthusiasts generally) lose their sheets over FS?

People in general, love celebrity.

I have zero interest in trains outside my profession but there is something inside me that looks at Steam Choo Choo's and appreciates the industry and the history they invoke. The Flying Scotsman epitomises everything that Steam stands for. It's Iconic and I fully appreciate it for that alone. It's like loving the 'LBD' by Coco Chanel.

such as? ( remember the point of the NRM is to appeal to real people not enthusiasts)

I think using their star asset to engage the general public and bring in revenue is exactly what they should be doing.

Conversely to my point above. The 'FS' annoys me because of how it reflects on said community. I don't like the way the railway suddenly gets treated like trash and any concerns for safety or respect just gets thrown out the window. I remember the 'something of Africa' sitting on the platform at Vic and me getting the perfect shot but also thinking deep inside that nobody had any respect for each other and just looked out for themselves.

I do think that an organised event on a station platform could be something that could indeed raise revenue, teach a little history, and inject a little joy in EVERYONES lives is exactly what they should be doing. 7 Squid seems like a reasonable price and I wish them luck.

 

[DarloRich]

I have zero interest in trains outside my profession but there is something inside me that looks at Steam Choo Choo's and appreciates the industry and the history they invoke. The Flying Scotsman epitomises everything that Steam stands for. It's Iconic and I fully appreciate it for that alone. It's like loving the 'LBD' by Coco Chanel.

I agree and don't understand why people don't see the same. It just seems so silly and childish

Conversely to my point above. The 'FS' annoys me because of how it reflects on said community. I don't like the way the railway suddenly gets treated like trash and any concerns for safety or respect just gets thrown out the window. I remember the 'something of Africa' sitting on the platform at Vic and me getting the perfect shot but also thinking deep inside that nobody had any respect for each other and just looked out for themselves.

Surely that is just people being people is it not? Sadly, not everyone displays the same standards that we might like to exhibit ourselves. Would it not be the same if Tom Cruise showed up? Sadly as a society we seem to be getting coarser and more ignorant on a daily basis.

I do think that an organised event on a station platform could be something that could indeed raise revenue, teach a little history, and inject a little joy in EVERYONES lives is exactly what they should be doing. 7 Squid seems like a reasonable price and I wish them luck.

I agree - i think this is, potentially, an excellent opportunity to do those things.

 

[ComUtoR]

Would it not be the same if Tom Cruise showed up?

I'm not a Tiny Tom fan but if he was in Leicester Square as I was passing, I would 100% stop for a quick photo. I think I'd be elbows out for a little bit but hopefully I'm still the kind of person who would happily walk away with a shot of the bald spot and still be happy with a memory of the day.

I have a picture of me standing next to (and also on the footplate of) 'Tangmere' I took the picture not just because I was on a jolly up but deep down I was thinking about the incident that had just happened. We all have those little triggers inside that drives us. The Green Steam Machine still triggers the inner child in many of us, probably not for much longer.

 

[Titfield]

Slight OT but related.

I went to the Great Gathering at York to see the A4s lined up.

The Museum was very busy and I was expecting it to be a bit hurly burly but, perhaps because it was true enthusiasts who had good manners and respect, the behaviour was exemplary. Everyone was being so very careful not to get in each others way it was almost a case of "After you Claude, no no you were before me, After you."

I got some great pics and the day was a delight.

 

[Harvester]

Slight OT but related.

I went to the Great Gathering at York to see the A4s lined up.

The Museum was very busy and I was expecting it to be a bit hurly burly but, perhaps because it was true enthusiasts who had good manners and respect, the behaviour was exemplary. Everyone was being so very careful not to get in each others way it was almost a case of "After you Claude, no no you were before me, After you."

I got some great pics and the day was a delight.

I missed the Great Gathering in July 2013, when all six A4s were present for a few weeks. I did visit the NRM that November and 60008 and 4489 (60010) were present, alongside Mallard. Bittern was stabled outside, at the back of the museum, so saw four A4s that day. The last time I had seen that number of streaks in a day was as a youngster back in 1963.

I also got some good pictures, the NRM was not too crowded that day.

 

[Train Maniac]

To those asking why enthusiasts dislike Flying Scotsman, it represents what is wrong with the railway community. Mass trespass and the perception that the only people who enjoy trains are single white men foaming at the mouth over a piece of machinery. Due to its popularity it draws in crowds (actually a very good thing) but at times this can get a little bit ridiculous.

I agree that kids should get a discount, as every mum and dad knows about Flying Scotsman! The more the merrier, i think that this is the perfect way to introduce this sort of demographic to the hobby.

On a more personal note, while the logistics would be an absolute nightmare, i think you could make the experience far more interactive if you allowed people on to the footplate to see how it works and the like? Maybe charge a premium (£10) at quieter times to do this?

 

[david l]

When FS has recently gone to heritage railways (since 2016), there are generally 5 days in steam working trains, and up to 15 days as static, where (for a similar fee to Kings Cross) access to footplate, photos etc whilst in light steam. Not seen any uproar about that. Get over it.

 

[John Luxton]

what's that? I have no idea so why will little Johnnie?

Why does this board and enthusiasts generally hate Flying Scotsman. Can someone explain it?

King George V - obviously you are not a GWR person.

I would just like to put it on record that I don't hate Flying Scotsman - but I do have problems with certain things or people which get placed on golden pedestals by the media. I am very anti-celebrity culture or anything that becomes a bit too mass market. Have always been like that. Always going against the grain and the flow ever since I child.

There are many other great locomotives out there that don't get the attention they deserve and perhaps it is better that they don't. I would just like to see less pushing of the Flying Scotsman.

 

[XAM2175]

Always going against the grain and the flow ever since I child.

We'll put your name in for the Virtuous Person's Medal

 

[zwk500]

There are many other great locomotives out there that don't get the attention they deserve and perhaps it is better that they don't. I would just like to see less pushing of the Flying Scotsman.

If Flying Scotsman is the one people want to see, why should the NRM not maximise the opportunity to generate revenue so that it can invest in the less 'sexy' locos? I'd rather they pushed one loco as hard as they could to ensure that the rest of the collection lasted for as long as possible.

 

[Runningaround]

Perhaps they'll allow viewers in at a rate so not to overcrowd the platform out so everyone can view it at a leisurely pace.
Nothing annoys me more than ''angry trainspotters'' demanding everyone stands on a platform making sure they don't get in the way of their shot. There is a you tube video of a Deltic at a station with ''Spotters'' telling a lad to ''get out of the way'' as he looked at a train. ''Who do they think they are''?
By the reaction on here the fee will dissuade the hardcore who generally dislike normal people imposing on their hobby so the atmosphere will be far more pleasant.

 

[ian1944]

If it's 10 minutes for everyone filing past, look for Holly and Phillip not jumping the queue.

 

[Bevan Price]

To those asking why enthusiasts dislike Flying Scotsman, it represents what is wrong with the railway community. Mass trespass and the perception that the only people who enjoy trains are single white men foaming at the mouth over a piece of machinery. Due to its popularity it draws in crowds (actually a very good thing) but at times this can get a little bit ridiculous.

I am not trying to defend dangerous trespass incidents, but the actions of NR indirectly - and unintentionally - contribute to such events. Many former viewing locations outside railway property have been blocked by uncontrolled vegetation growth, or by erection of high, unsightly fences, even in remote rural locations where there is low probability of trespass incidents.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Perhaps they'll allow viewers in at a rate so not to overcrowd the platform out so everyone can view it at a leisurely pace.
Nothing annoys me more than ''angry trainspotters'' demanding everyone stands on a platform making sure they don't get in the way of their shot. There is a you tube video of a Deltic at a station with ''Spotters'' telling a lad to ''get out of the way'' as he looked at a train. ''Who do they think they are''?
By the reaction on here the fee will dissuade the hardcore who generally dislike normal people imposing on their hobby so the atmosphere will be far more pleasant.

That bloke in the engine room about 2.40 must be having a right thrash my lords!!!

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps they'll allow viewers in at a rate so not to overcrowd the platform out so everyone can view it at a leisurely pace.
Nothing annoys me more than ''angry trainspotters'' demanding everyone stands on a platform making sure they don't get in the way of their shot. There is a you tube video of a Deltic at a station with ''Spotters'' telling a lad to ''get out of the way'' as he looked at a train. ''Who do they think they are''?
By the reaction on here the fee will dissuade the hardcore who generally dislike normal people imposing on their hobby so the atmosphere will be far more pleasant.

I was on that train - no problem for me getting pics
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

[D6968]

If Flying Scotsman is the one people want to see, why should the NRM not maximise the opportunity to generate revenue so that it can invest in the less 'sexy' locos? I'd rather they pushed one loco as hard as they could to ensure that the rest of the collection lasted for as long as possible.

Please answer me this question,
Has/will any of the cash earned by 60103 go into the return to traffic of something less ‘sexy’ like say D8000, D200, 31018 or 1023?

Not long ago these were all operational, how much cash from Flying Scotsman has gone into returning one of these machines back into traffic?
I do find it rather interesting that the NRM can find space in its collection for 3 HST power cars though…

 

[zwk500]

Please answer me this question,
Has/will any of the cash earned by 60103 go into the return to traffic of something less ‘sexy’ like say D8000, D200, 31018 or 1023?

Not directly, but then any money earned by 60103 for itself means an equivalent amount of other funding can go to D200, for example. The exact nature of accounting for these kind of things is usually very complicated and I don't have access to the books to answer your question in full.

It may well have been better to just mount 60103 on a plinth and have done with it, but thry decided to restore it so now they need the revenue.

I do find it rather interesting that the NRM can find space in its collection for 3 HST power cars though…

The class 43 is an intrinsic part of the railway story, and obtaining 2 cars gives the potential for running railtours in future. Obtaining a third gives cover for maintenance, a spare parts donor, or a static display object to give as many opportunities to view the class as possible.

 

[43096]

The class 43 is an intrinsic part of the railway story, and obtaining 2 cars gives the potential for running railtours in future.

Hahahahahaha. They won’t be running 41001 in a hurry (it needs mainline safety equipment even before anything else) and what would they run them with? The single buffet they have? The original idea was to save an entire set “for the nation” but that was reduced and reduced to one coach. Fortunately others have saved many more vehicles.

Obtaining a third gives cover for maintenance, a spare parts donor, or a static display object to give as many opportunities to view the class as possible.

They are all display objects, nothing more. They do not need two production power cars now any pretence of saving a full set has gone. 43002 was an odd choice: it has very little historical significance.

 

[Jagdpanther]

Seems like a good idea to me, not that I'll be paying to do it. If you dont like it, dont pay it and stop moaning, go and spend your £7 on something else.

 

[47434]

Why shouldn't the NRM charge - the engines costs an absolute fortune to run and returns are required on investment.

It has never failed to make me smile how much photographers believe the big lensed object round their neck gives them the god given right to do what they please - whether that be trespass lineside or on private property

 

[Runningaround]

Think of it this way if you aren't interested in the train, those that are will be on that platform and you'll be able to spot the everyday EMU'S without hindrance on the others.

 

[D6968]

Not directly, but then any money earned by 60103 for itself means an equivalent amount of other funding can go to D200, for example. The exact nature of accounting for these kind of things is usually very complicated and I don't have access to the books to answer your question in full.

It may well have been better to just mount 60103 on a plinth and have done with it, but thry decided to restore it so now they need the revenue.

The class 43 is an intrinsic part of the railway story, and obtaining 2 cars gives the potential for running railtours in future. Obtaining a third gives cover for maintenance, a spare parts donor, or a static display object to give as many opportunities to view the class as possible.

Any money earned by 60103 isn’t going into restoring the other loco’s in the collection though is it?
I really don’t think you understand my point about the trio of HST Power Cars either.