Severn Tunnel Closure - Have they Worked Out the Best Road Route?

[Envoy]

I note that the Severn / Patchway Tunnels are closed from 18 June to midnight on Sunday 8th July, 2018. People are going to be bussed between Bristol Parkway & Newport. Being as this is one of the most congested sections of motorway in Britain - especially the bit around Newport, has the best route for getting buses in and out of Newport been worked out? I say this because I note that westbound, the tailbacks sometimes almost reach the The Prince of Wales Bridge toll booths. Would it be quicker for westbound buses to come off the M4 at the Magor interchange and take the A4810 south of Llanwern or would it be better to come off at Coldra rather than stay on the M4 in the jams?
Have the numerous bus drivers been advised on what route to take?

Click this link for a map of the area with live traffic showing top at the time you click the link:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5800268,-2.9588543,13z/data=!5m1!1e1

 

[The Planner]

Up to the operators of the RRBs isnt it. Like most things, the have been contracted to run the replacements so the risk is on them to use the most expedient routes.

 

[PHILIPE]

Probably what their Sat Navs tell them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Probably will be identical to whenever RRB's have been used between Parkway and Newport in the past. Which will likely mean being passengers will be stuck in traffic and will likely miss their rail connections. At least there isn't a motorway closure planned for the same time period this time around!! (that was the case a few months ago and meant the bus journey took me almost 2 hours!).

 

[Dai Corner]

I'd like to think there will be a controller monitoring the rail and road traffic and passenger flows at Newport and Parkway, dispatching buses and advising drivers of the best route to use.

But I'm probably being over-optimistic!

 

[Envoy]

Thank everyone for your comments. I have just come back and clicked on my map link at 16.23 on Wednesday and it is now showing a solid jam westbound all the way from the Magor services to the tunnel. (Beyonce is playing the Principality Stadium this evening). So, looking at the situation now, if the tunnel were shut, bus drivers would be well advised to use the A4810 route to reach Newport station. That is why somebody should be in overall command and be informing the bus drivers of what route would be quickest. All the bus drivers should also get to know the 3 possible routes into Newport from the Severn bridges.

 

[Dai Corner]

Interestingly, Google Maps is now suggesting taking the M48 (old Severn Bridge) and sitting it out on the M4, although a few minutes ago it favoured the M4 and A4810 from Magor.

https://goo.gl/maps/j664G56R9KC2

Edit: in the time it took me to type my post Google Maps changed its mind and now suggests M48-Magor-A4810

 

[Envoy]

17.35 on Wednesday and the jam from the tunnel at Newport is now right up to the M4 bridge tolls - so, on effect - people can’t clear the tolls and the queue is stretching back towards the bridge itself. That must be the reason why Google is now suggesting that people use the older bridge (M48). Indeed, if I was in ‘command’ of the rail replacement buses, I would be telling the drivers westbound to use the M48 bridge. Wonder if GWR have got some crowd busting old HST’s out between Bristol TM & Cardiff? Would be pretty horrendous at this moment I guess on the normal 3 coach trains!

When the tunnel is closed, Ed Sheehan will playing the stadium on 4 days. Expect even worse problems then! At least the tunnel is open on 15 June when the Rolling Stones are at the stadium. This being a Friday - travel to Cardiff will be horrendous.

PS. Just checked on Tiger the number of carriages on services from the east heading through Newport to Cardiff:>
1F24 Portsmouth - Cardiff = 3
2L65 Cheltenham - Maesteg = 2
2U24 Taunton - Cardiff = 3
1V12 Nottingham - Cardiff = 2
1F26 Portsmouth - Cardiff = 2
1V48 Manchester - Carmarthen = 3.

Well that says it all. No extra coaches despite the Beyonce show in Cardiff tonight. People must be rammed on those trains. No wonder people prefer to drive - despite the massive jams on the M4! Why is no effort made by the rail companies to increase stock when pop shows are on in Cardiff yet for sporting events it appears to be a different story? It is appalling that XC could not even provide a 3 coach 170 for 1V12 let alone anything better.

 

[PHILIPE]

Don't try telling many drivers to take alternative routes. I have been reading Twitter messages on GWR this week while the line is closed at Newbury for electrification work and people complaining of drivers getting lost and going round in circles. At least there are no calling points between Newport and Bristol Parkway for the buses to miss. I'm not sure of the companies from whom the buses to cover this route are but in many cases buses are hired from places far from local.

 

[Wychwood93]

Don't try telling many drivers to take alternative routes. I have been reading Twitter messages on GWR this week while the line is closed at Newbury for electrification work and people complaining of drivers getting lost and going round in circles. At least there are no calling points between Newport and Bristol Parkway for the buses to miss. I'm not sure of the companies from whom the buses to cover this route are but in many cases buses are hired from places far from local.

In the past I have given a replacement bus driver the directions to Christchurch station - as I recall it was somewhere around midnight, so I doubt if it was his first trip of the day. Hinton Admiral was quite often ignored. On this thread Bristol Parkway to Newport should be OK - although comments above noted. What of the Briz/Cardiff services - Abbey Wood, Patchway, (Pilning?) and Severn Tnl Junction?

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Well that says it all. No extra coaches despite the Beyonce show in Cardiff tonight. People must be rammed on those trains. No wonder people prefer to drive - despite the massive jams on the M4! Why is no effort made by the rail companies to increase stock when pop shows are on in Cardiff yet for sporting events it appears to be a different story? It is appalling that XC could not even provide a 3 coach 170 for 1V12 let alone anything better.

The rolling stock just doesn't exist and the rolling stock that does is being used to transport people to and from work and to other events which will no doubt be happening.

 

[Dai Corner]

In the past I have given a replacement bus driver the directions to Christchurch station - as I recall it was somewhere around midnight, so I doubt if it was his first trip of the day. Hinton Admiral was quite often ignored. On this thread Bristol Parkway to Newport should be OK - although comments above noted. What of the Briz/Cardiff services - Abbey Wood, Patchway, (Pilning?) and Severn Tnl Junction?

I couldn't see any timetables on the GWR website, but RTT shows 'stopping' buses between the local stations as well as fast ones between Newport and Bristol Parkway and some Cardiff-Newport-Gloucester-Temple Meads trains.

 

[Envoy]

I couldn't see any timetables on the GWR website, but RTT shows 'stopping' buses between the local stations as well as fast ones between Newport and Bristol Parkway and some Cardiff-Newport-Gloucester-Temple Meads trains.

I just checked for a journey from Cheltenham to Cardiff during the closure and up comes a warning that the service cannot be guaranteed. Does this mean that the section from STJ to NWP is also closed or are they just removing some of the Cheltenham services in order to accommodate the diverted London trains?

 

[Envoy]

The rolling stock just doesn't exist and the rolling stock that does is being used to transport people to and from work and to other events which will no doubt be happening.

So, I take it that XC had their spare HST out and about yesterday? I also wonder why it is that extra stock seems to be found for sporting events in Cardiff but for pop shows? Did GWR bring out a HST to provide relief between Bristol & Cardiff? Were Beyonce fans left stranded on stations unable to board packed trains?

 

[jimm]

Let's see. Perhaps because most of the big sports events are at the weekend, when Arriva and GWR are not having to run a regular weekday peak service, as they were yesterday afternoon and early evening - so can shuffle rolling stock and staff about to provide extras, or keep more trains out there operating into the evenings.

Where is this HST that GWR are supposed to "bring out"? Given how stretched GWR's long-distance fleet is between late arrivals of IETs and HSTs leaving for Scotrail, the idea there is one available for traffic just sitting around doing nothing on a weekday is unlikely.

There don't seem to be any train or traffic horror stories on Wales Online or the BBC website about last night.

 

[Dai Corner]

Let's see. Perhaps because most of the big sports events are at the weekend, when Arriva and GWR are not having to run a regular weekday peak service, as they were yesterday afternoon and early evening - so can shuffle rolling stock and staff about to provide extras, or keep more trains out there operating into the evenings.

Where is this HST that GWR are supposed to "bring out"? Given how stretched GWR's long-distance fleet is between late arrivals of IETs and HSTs leaving for Scotrail, the idea there is one available for traffic just sitting around doing nothing on a weekday is unlikely.

There don't seem to be any train or traffic horror stories on Wales Online or the BBC website about last night.

Another factor is the size of the crowds. Sporting events attract not only the stadium audience but also people coming into the city centre bars and streets to enjoy the atmosphere.

 

[deltic08]

This is where the old Severn Railway Bridge between Lydney and Sharpness is missed closed in 1960 after a river accident. In its wisdom, the BRB decided after ten years, to demolish instead of repair which actually cost a few thousand more than replacing a span.
Trains from Cardiff to Bristol on a Sunday used it when Severn Tunnel was closed. Much shorter than diverting via Gloucester.

 

[The Planner]

Wasn't it ridiculously slow and single track though? By the time you trundle down to Sharpness and across to Lydney you are probably not going to make significant savings.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Wasn't it ridiculously slow and single track though? By the time you trundle down to Sharpness and across to Lydney you are probably not going to make significant savings.

But at least you'd maintain a direct rail link and so passengers wouldn't have to change trains.
Indeed that is the logic GWR use when diverting South Wales - London trains via Gloucester when the tunnel is shut. It adds an hour or so onto the journey, but provides passengers a much better alternative to having to deal with replacement buses.

Sure if you are just doing say Cardiff - Bristol then the extra time a diversion takes probably isn't worth it (unless you have a fair bit of luggage or have mobility issues). But for say Cardiff - Southampton? Why shouldn't that journey have the option of a diversion considering how long it takes already anyway?

 

[Dai Corner]

There are a pair of trains for South Wales to Bristol commuters who can't face using the bus.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V04250/2018/06/20/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V02462/2018/06/20/advanced

 

[Envoy]

I wonder if the TOC’s are aware that the Rolling Stones are at the Principality Stadium on Friday 15 June 2018? They appear to have made no effort to provide extra stock for the Beyonce concert on 6th June. No doubt XC will have their regular 2 coach 170’s on the Nottingham > Birmingham> Cardiff route. (Can’t they borrow a spare 170 from sister company Chiltern or get their spare HST on the route)? Anyway, I guess that by the time the Stones finish, normal railway shifts have also finished.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'd imagine most Stones fans would use their passes to travel home free by bus

 

[Bristol Rich]

I wonder if the TOC’s are aware that the Rolling Stones are at the Principality Stadium on Friday 15 June 2018? They appear to have made no effort to provide extra stock for the Beyonce concert on 6th June. No doubt XC will have their regular 2 coach 170’s on the Nottingham > Birmingham> Cardiff route. (Can’t they borrow a spare 170 from sister company Chiltern or get their spare HST on the route)? Anyway, I guess that by the time the Stones finish, normal railway shifts have also finished.

Fair point.

There is also an England v Australia international cricket game on at sophia gardens the day after, albeit that should finish a lot earlier.

 

[WelshBluebird]

They appear to have made no effort to provide extra stock for the Beyonce concert on 6th June.

Can't speak for stock but I am pretty sure I saw extra services on RTT for that night.

 

[PHILIPE]

ATW are running extras for Valleys, Gloucester, Hereford and Swansea and GWR for Bristol TM and Swindon for the Rolling Stones

 

[deltic08]

Wasn't it ridiculously slow and single track though? By the time you trundle down to Sharpness and across to Lydney you are probably not going to make significant savings.

Apart from the 25mph turnout from the main Cardiff-Gloucester line at Lydney and the Berkeley Road loop onto the Gloucester-Bristol line and 25mph over the single line bridge, the Collett 0-4-2 hauled push/pull sets really rattled along between stations.
Had the bridge been repaired for regular use to-day, the turnouts would be renewed at 60mph, the bridge line speed would be 40mph and the other bits would be 70mph.
It had already been fitted with strain gauges and tested successfully in 1960 with double headed Castle locos with the intention of increasing train weights and raising speed limit on the bridge but was hit before it could be implemented.
Severn Tunnel Junction-Lydney is 15 miles, Lydney-Berkeley Road is 8 miles, and Berkeley Road loop to Bristol TM is 18miles, a total of 41 miles. STJ to Bristol TM is 13, the difference being 28 miles. Surely it could be covered in 30 minutes non stop additional journey time? That is much quicker than by rail replacement bus when we are told that bus from Parkway to Newport over both Severn road bridges can take 2 hours. No competition had the Severn rail bridge been retained. There were many wrong decisions made in the 1960s by the Tory Government that we regret now.
As an aside, my Great Grandfather was part of the construction team and his Grandson, my uncle, was part of the demolition team.

 

[Envoy]

ATW are running extras for Valleys, Gloucester, Hereford and Swansea and GWR for Bristol TM and Swindon for the Rolling Stones

Well, that is good news. I just hope that they load those passengers travelling furthest first. (I hear that during a sporting event, that passengers for places beyond Cheltenham were left stranded at Cheltenham station in the night because at Cardiff, passengers for places between Cardiff & Gloucester and been loaded onto a train that was going to Birmingham & beyond and those needing to go to Birmingham+ could not get on board. They were later loaded onto a train that only went as far as Cheltenham).

PS. I take it that the relevant TOC’s (GWR & ATW) are aware that the Swansea Air Show will take place on Sat. June 30th & Sun.1st July - so expect increased demand!

 

[D2007wsm]

Don't try telling many drivers to take alternative routes. I have been reading Twitter messages on GWR this week while the line is closed at Newbury for electrification work and people complaining of drivers getting lost and going round in circles. At least there are no calling points between Newport and Bristol Parkway for the buses to miss. I'm not sure of the companies from whom the buses to cover this route are but in many cases buses are hired from places far from local.

Generally, a lot of the GWR rail replacement work in the Bath, Bristol and North Somerset area is operated by First West of England with buses, typivally with double deckers apart frim the swrvices wherr the route taken necessitates a single decker e.g. swrvices calling at Nailsea and Backwell. Some local coach companies operate since of the longer distance services and services on behalf of CrossCountry.

The drivers are given a guide beforehand with maps of the routes they will be expected to take and contact is available to a person in charge of the rail replacement services.

 

[Envoy]

Generally, a lot of the GWR rail replacement work in the Bath, Bristol and North Somerset area is operated by First West of England with buses, typivally with double deckers apart frim the swrvices wherr the route taken necessitates a single decker e.g. swrvices calling at Nailsea and Backwell. Some local coach companies operate since of the longer distance services and services on behalf of CrossCountry.

The drivers are given a guide beforehand with maps of the routes they will be expected to take and contact is available to a person in charge of the rail replacement services.

If the drivers are expected to stick rigidly to a specified route - then I don’t think that this is good enough. In the case of the Severn Tunnel closure, staying in jams on the M4 tailing back from the Newport tunnel is going to be horrendous for passengers - which is why I say someone needs to be in overall command and advise when the tailbacks are so bad that it would be wise to take the alternative routes - such as the A4810. (If the drivers have smartphones - perhaps they could check out Google Traffic before starting off from Bristol Parkway)?

 

[Envoy]

ROLLING STONES IN CARDIFF. The situation on the M4 right now - 3pm Friday 15 June 2018 - is horrendous. Now totally jammed all the way from the Newport tunnel to the Prince of Wales (M4) bridge - plus a long section near Bristol. Link will show situation when you click it:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5564559,-2.669936,11.42z/data=!5m1!1e1

I hate to think what the situation will be like when the Severn Tunnel is closed. (Ed Sheeran is just one of the events in Cardiff during this period).