Shapps "promised to scrap HS2 Golborne spur"

[Meole]

Schapps promised Brady it would be scrapped with the implication he had to deliver, he did.

 

[tomuk]

Fair comments, but I'm not sure how else you could get from Hoo to Preston through the various built up areas to the east, which is why the Golborne link stopped short. The M6 is pretty straight most of the way and does have generous margins through the major built up areas.

It may be the case that some sections have to have a slightly lower speed limit, or maybe some short tunnels if budget allows. The key benefit is to bypass all the existing bottlenecks on WCML, as SPH stated as the goal in the Union connectivity review.

The alternative hinted at in the Union Connectivity Review is to the west of Warrington and Wigan using the proposed NPR line via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level to get across Warrington towards Fiddlers Ferry then a new line north towards M6 and Preston.

 

[paul1609]

Fair comments, but I'm not sure how else you could get from Hoo to Preston through the various built up areas to the east, which is why the Golborne link stopped short. The M6 is pretty straight most of the way and does have generous margins through the major built up areas.

It may be the case that some sections have to have a slightly lower speed limit, or maybe some short tunnels if budget allows. The key benefit is to bypass all the existing bottlenecks on WCML, as SPH stated as the goal in the Union connectivity review.

Im not familiar with the area other than travelling through on the WCML but I'd suggest having a look on Google maps and comparing the curvature of the WCML with that of the M6 and then trying to draw a straightish line along the M6 corridor. If your resorting to tunnels you'd be better off doing it alongside the existing WCML. If your building it on the surface you'd be looking at demolishing hundreds if not a thousand plus homes, which in many cases have been built up to the edge of the motorway cuttings.

 

[WatcherZero]

The alternative hinted at in the Union Connectivity Review is to the west of Warrington and Wigan using the proposed NPR line via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level to get across Warrington towards Fiddlers Ferry then a new line north towards M6 and Preston.

So whose going to tell Warrington Council and the local MP's that to do that they would still have to build the Golborne spur as far as Dunham Massey then through Lymm and along the southern side of the Ship Canal through half of Warrington?

 

[snowball]

The alternative hinted at in the Union Connectivity Review is to the west of Warrington and Wigan using the proposed NPR line via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level to get across Warrington towards Fiddlers Ferry then a new line north towards M6 and Preston.

As far as I can see it only says this:

Linking HS2 with the WCML

The UK Government has already acknowledged
some of the issues identified by the Review. The
‘Golborne Link’—the current proposed connection
between HS2 and the WCML—is expected to deliver
quicker journey times and more capacity between
England and Scotland and resolve some of the
constraints between Crewe and Preston.
However, the ‘Golborne Link’ does not resolve all of
the identified issues. The suitability of alternative
connections between HS2 and the WCML have
been considered by the Review. The emerging
evidence suggests that an alternative connection
to the WCML, for example at some point south
of Preston, could offer more benefits and an
opportunity to reduce journey times by two to three
minutes more than the ‘Golborne Link’. However,
more work is required to better understand the
case for and against such options.
These benefits could also include additional
operational flexibility when timing freight services
and less disruption to the WCML than major
upgrades as most construction could take place
away from the railway. Further work is needed to
determine the comparative user and wider benefits,
costs and deliverability of an alternative connection
alongside the interventions set out below.

Infrastructure
The Review has identified a range of possible
infrastructure interventions including replacing
and enhancing track, signalling and power supply
systems, and possibly new sections of line north
of Preston, which would maximise line speeds
for the non-tilting HS2 trains and create greater
freight capacity.

Each of these interventions will have different
impacts in terms of timescales, affordability,
benefits and value for money. Further work to
define the possible scope and phasing of these
interventions is currently being explored.

4 Recommendation

The UK Government should:

Reduce rail journey times and increase
rail capacity between Scotland and
London, the Midlands and North West
England by upgrading the West Coast
Main Line north of Crewe and reviewing
options for alternative northerly connexions
between HS2 and the West Coast Main Line.

Have I missed something where it mentions the route you describe?

 

[fishwomp]

Is this all just an irrelevant announcement at this point? The second phase of HS2 isn't due to open until 2035-2040, so this government is basically making promises (or promises not to) about things that really can wait until the next government..

 

[WatcherZero]

The more I look at it there would be no 'politically acceptable' alternative to the Golborne link that causes less blight either side of the M6, the only thing you could do is have a segregated alignment alongside the WCML all the way from Crewe to Preston with no possibility of a Northern NPR/HS2 connection (I.E. no trains from Manchester or Liverpool to Scotland) Liverpool's London connection would have to continue using the Crewe classic HS2 connection or go 3/4 of the way to Manchester Airport before joining NPR and doubling back, its just not feasible to build a new highspeed chord from the WCML making a 270 degree turn to the left across the Mersey and the Ship Canal straight through the Moore Nature Reserve to link up with NPR west of Warrington, the viaduct across the estuary would be four times the length of the Mersey Gateway Bridge and you wouldnt want to do a shallow tunnel beneath the Runcorn Sands (Checked borehole records on the BGS database and to a depth of 200m no one has hit anything other than quicksand and porous red sandstone).

And theres no way thats going to be cheaper alternative.

 

[snowball]

It seems to be a replication of the situation with the eastern arm - they claim to have dropped something and that they will look at alternatives, but they will probably be unable to find an alternative as good as the dropped proposal.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Was the timing a coincidence or a bribe to get three ‘confidence’ votes?

 

[HSTEd]

The Golborne link being dropped does rather make the Manchester barnch look rather suboptimally routed!

 

[paul1609]

Was the timing a coincidence or a bribe to get three ‘confidence’ votes?

Theres Tory MPs in Warrington, really?
I was hoping it was borderland Peaky Blinders territory

 

[WatcherZero]

The Leigh MP is Tory!

 

[paul1609]

The Leigh MP is Tory!

I thought Leigh was the posh end of Southend "on Sea". If there's any such thing as posh in Essex.
Your all Northerners to me.

 

[Bevan Price]

I thought Leigh was the posh end of Southend "on Sea". If there's any such thing as posh in Essex.
Your all Northerners to me.

Most of Leigh is anything but posh. If anything, the town has been under-resourced since it had the misfortune to be dragged into Wigan Metropolitan borough in 1974.

 

[Revaulx]

Most of Leigh is anything but posh. If anything, the town has been under-resourced since it had the misfortune to be dragged into Wigan Metropolitan borough in 1974.

Lost its railway in 1969 as well. Always seemed a particularly idiotic closure.

 

[WatcherZero]

Most of Leigh is anything but posh. If anything, the town has been under-resourced since it had the misfortune to be dragged into Wigan Metropolitan borough in 1974.

Lol, have you ever looked up the history of the Municipal Borough of Leigh in any history book? Even BHO which compiles all municipal histories books and public records has only: Created in 1899, the coat of arms was taken from the Atherton family of Atherton Hall, a town hall designed by J. C. Prestwich was completed in 1907, in 1969 there was a boundary change with Golborne Urban District in 1969 during which no population was affected, the Borough was abolished in 1974.

It literally had so little impact its existence is a footnote.

 

[tomuk]

The more I look at it there would be no 'politically acceptable' alternative to the Golborne link that causes less blight either side of the M6, the only thing you could do is have a segregated alignment alongside the WCML all the way from Crewe to Preston with no possibility of a Northern NPR/HS2 connection (I.E. no trains from Manchester or Liverpool to Scotland) Liverpool's London connection would have to continue using the Crewe classic HS2 connection or go 3/4 of the way to Manchester Airport before joining NPR and doubling back, its just not feasible to build a new highspeed chord from the WCML making a 270 degree turn to the left across the Mersey and the Ship Canal straight through the Moore Nature Reserve to link up with NPR west of Warrington, the viaduct across the estuary would be four times the length of the Mersey Gateway Bridge and you wouldnt want to do a shallow tunnel beneath the Runcorn Sands (Checked borehole records on the BGS database and to a depth of 200m no one has hit anything other than quicksand and porous red sandstone).

And theres no way thats going to be cheaper alternative.

Why are you mentioning the WCML and Moore Nature Reserve and crossing the Mersey and MSC near Runcorn.

HS2 services to Scotland would use HS2 to High Leigh the proposed Liverpool NPR, Golborne Link, Manchester HS2 junction. Instead of the Golborne Link they would use the Liverpool NPR link witch reuses Latchford Viaduct and the Low Level line through Warrington towards Fiddlers Ferry where they would then turn North on a new alignment towards Appley Bridge and the M6, the new alignment continuing north to Euxton along the M6.

 

[Sonik]

Liverpool's London connection would have to continue using the Crewe classic HS2 connection or go 3/4 of the way to Manchester Airport before joining NPR and doubling back

I think that's exactly whats planned. Liverpool-London will go via Fiddler's Ferry then a new NPR line from WBQ to High Leigh.

IIRC it was already announced that HS2 Ltd will be tasked with planning the new section of NPR (i.e. High Leigh to WBQ)

Which does make you wonder if that section may subsequently become part of a re-plan for HS2 going north (i.e. an alternative to the Golborne Link) since not much else about NPR seems urgent or has been made public. But where it could branch north from there is just speculation at this point.

 

[snowball]

There's only one I in High Legh and it's in High. Not the same Leigh discussed a couple of posts up.

Where does the idea for the zigzag route to the north come from? I couldn't find any reference to it in the Union Connectivity Review.

 

[Evolution]

It’s shocking to think a little weasel like Shapps, a man who sold get rich quick schemes under false names online and couldn’t lie straight in bed, is in charge of the railway.

I wouldn’t believe a word this man says, it’s not even worth discussing what he’s quoted as saying, he will change his mind within a week.

 

[tomuk]

I think that's exactly whats planned. Liverpool-London will go via Fiddler's Ferry then a new NPR line from WBQ to High Leigh.

IIRC it was already announced that HS2 Ltd will be tasked with planning the new section of NPR (i.e. High Leigh to WBQ)

Which does make you wonder if that section may subsequently become part of a re-plan for HS2 going north (i.e. an alternative to the Golborne Link) since not much else about NPR seems urgent or has been made public. But where it could branch north from there is just speculation at this point.

As I have already posted that is the plan. It's all under wraps at the moment due to the blight issues that will ensue. The proper investigation, proposals and consultation will need to happen.

 

[snowball]

Sorry, I see now, you're supplying us with new inside information that that was what the UCR really meant.

 

[Sonik]

Where does the idea for the zigzag route to the north come from? I couldn't find any reference to it in the Union Connectivity Review.

Nothing has been announced, just reading between the lines and seeing what's a possible outcome.

 

[HSTEd]

A zig zag route is not a problem if it can sustain 230+kph, even at that comparatively low speed it will eat up a kilometre every 16 seconds.

 

[Purple Orange]

Liverpool's London connection would have to continue using the Crewe classic HS2 connection or go 3/4 of the way to Manchester Airport before joining NPR and doubling back,

Sorry, but there is no way it can be claimed that a Liverpool-London service would be doubling back. It would head to west Warrington, then south to Crewe. Nothing would be doubling back in a westerly direction.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Is there a link to a good map that shows the section that has been scrapped, as well as the route that is still being built (and how it links into existing rail lines and the current NPR proposals)?

(Apologies if one has already been posted and I've missed it)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's only one I in High Legh and it's in High. Not the same Leigh discussed a couple of posts up.
Where does the idea for the zigzag route to the north come from? I couldn't find any reference to it in the Union Connectivity Review.

Such a zigzag through Warrington seems utter nonsense.
The Union Connectivity report suggested moving the HS2/WCML junction north towards Preston, maybe around Coppull.
That would only alter the last couple of miles of the Golborne route, still requiring the stretch over the MSC/Mersey at Rixton (and through Brady's patch).
If the thing is to be scrapped the WCML needs improving, but a high-speed Warrington/Wigan bypass to the west seems a fantasy.

The deletion of the Golborne branch (actually the main line, Manchester is the branch) will at least improve the chances of the Crewe-Manchester line getting through parliament in the present session.
It will be up to another government to sort out the plans further north.

 

[Nottingham59]

improve the chances of the Crewe-Manchester line getting through parliament in the present session.

That's the most important thing.

Personally, I don't see why it's thought impossible to four-track the WCML all the way from Crewe to Wigan. You would have to convert slope-sided cuttings in places like Hartford into vertical-sided box structures; and perhaps merge the two extra tracks onto the Chester line near the Daresbury Laboratory, to avoid taking land in Moore. But most of the route is not developed on one side or the other.

Though it would be windy and slow, four tracks would surely provide the capacity that is needed. (But what do I know? I think they could shoehorn in 6 tracks north of Bedford Station to accommodate East-West Rail.)

 

[Speed43125]

Is there a link to a good map that shows the section that has been scrapped, as well as the route that is still being built (and how it links into existing rail lines and the current NPR proposals)?

(Apologies if one has already been posted and I've missed it)

The context of this map aside, it does label the Golbourne spur quite clearly.

https://i2-prod.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article22202207.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/2_NPRJPG.jpg

 

[snowball]

n

Is there a link to a good map that shows the section that has been scrapped, as well as the route that is still being built (and how it links into existing rail lines and the current NPR proposals)?

(Apologies if one has already been posted and I've missed it)

Go to this link and click on "close map instructions". The part being dropped is the upper left orange arm above the fork. You can move about the map and zoom as you wish.

Doesn't show NPR however. Detailed NPR maps have have not been published, but NPR towards Warrington and Liverpool would continue westward from the east-west part of the Manchester arm just north of the fork, and would begin by running parallel to and south of the M56.

In your area map - HS2

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