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Shepperton Branch stock 1970 to 75

Ken X

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Having been born in Hampton, Middx, my brother is looking to model this area circa 1970 to 75. We have had a good poke around on-line and it seems we are looking at Class 413 or 415/416 EMUs? Is there a definitive source we can refer to to make sure he gets it correct? I am assuming this stock was based at Strawberry Hill Depot.

We have found a few photos but lack accurate documentation. Many thanks and apologies if we have missed an easy source of information.
 
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30907

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For the early 70s you would basically be looking at 4-Subs, though and Strawberry Hill IIRC used to use the Shepperton branch for testing all sorts.

I have the winter 72 and 77-78 carriage workings: in 72 Shepperton was almost exclusively Sub, with a couple of trains booked 3x2EPB (SR or BR type) and one 2x 4EPB. Strawberry Hill was booked to stable an odd 4Cig off the Reading line.
The main EPB routes were (2EPB) Windsor/Weybridge and (4EPB) Guildford via Cobham while 2-Hap were on main line duties.

By 1977 the area was more mixed - the Windsor/Weybridges were now mostly 2Sap (ex Hap) and the Cobhams had some Veps, so the suburbans had 2EPB, 2Sap and 4EPB alongside the Subs. Shepperton was still 50% Sub, but had a couple of visits from the 8Pep as well as EPBs. Strawberry Hill was mostly EP stock by then.

For really detailed stuff try https://www.bloodandcustard.com/
 

norbitonflyer

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Wouldn't be 413s, (4CAP) as they were only formed (by permanently coupling two 2HAPs) in 1982, and they never worked on the South Western anyway.
Staple diet would have been Bulleid-type 4SUBs (class 405) and 4EPBs (class 415), usually runninmg in pairs as an eight car train. (The pre-war SUBs were all gone by 1971)

2EPBs (class 416) would have been rare, unless they were short of stock and had to use one to deputise for a 4EPB (making a - short-formed - 6-car train).

The service had been 2nd-class only since the 1940s so outer suburban stock (Class 414 - 2HAP or Class 423 - 4VEP, in various combinations) would have been a rarity although by no means unknown - VEPs were occasionally still seen in the mid 1990s.

The 4PEP prototypes certainly were put through their paces on the branch in that period. The 508s didn't arrive until 1978.
 

Ken X

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OK, lots to digest there for which we are very grateful. We will have to read up on all the EMUs types listed here to educate ourselves.

The only things we can remember were that there were no corridors, just compartments with a door either side and (I think) we remember a guards compartment but this may be wrong. Funnily enough I can't recall the colour of the units but that's age for you. :)

The link given by 30907 will be thoroughly perused.
 

Dr_Paul

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I was commuting on weekdays from Kingston to Waterloo and back from early 1972, and I can recall only 4-SUBs on the Sheppy services, and also on the Teddington loop, Hampton Court and Chessington services. This is not to say that there weren't 4-EPBs on these services, but I have no memory of them during that time.
 

30907

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The only things we can remember were that there were no corridors, just compartments with a door either side and (I think) we remember a guards compartment but this may be wrong.
That fits with anything that might have worked the line in the period (barring the PEP).
I was commuting on weekdays from Kingston to Waterloo and back from early 1972, and I can recall only 4-SUBs on the Sheppy services, and also on the Teddington loop, Hampton Court and Chessington services. This is not to say that there weren't 4-EPBs on these services, but I have no memory of them during that time.
They would have been few and far between on those routes (or on the Hounslow Roundabouts).
 

norbitonflyer

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OK, lots to digest there for which we are very grateful. We will have to read up on all the EMUs types listed here to educate ourselves.

The only things we can remember were that there were no corridors, just compartments with a door either side and (I think) we remember a guards compartment but this may be wrong. Funnily enough I can't recall the colour of the units but that's age for you. :)
By 1972 most SUBs and EPBs would have only had one of the middle carriages arranged as you describe,
47895949b39b1bd35c93a8c4609b30f8.jpg


but the other carriages were open-plan - still with a door to each bay of seats, but with an aisle down the middle of the carriage. Very high-backed seats by modern standards.
7313247482_26184a25a7_b.jpg


(Note the difference in windows - SUBs and SR-type EPBs like the lower picture had a top light above the opening window in the door, that the BR type EPBs like the upper picture lacked)

"SR-type" EPBs, and many SUBs, were actually built after nationalisation, but using the same tooling, dating from the early 1940s, as earlier SUBs. The BR-type were built alongside them using new tooling.

There was a guards compartment next to both driving cabs in a 4-car set, and next to one of them in a 2-car.


This (below) is an SR-type 4EPB- the guard's compartment is where the double set of doors is.
6815672039_a5930b466d_b.jpg


This is a BR-type EPB - similar layout. Thgese epnt most of the working lives on the South eastern, but were also on the SWD in the earlier years. (The Shepperton branch is in the South Western Division). Conversely, BR-type 2EPBs were found on all three divisions, but SR-type ones mainly on the Central Division
49393511648_8240154342.jpg


Most non-gangwayed units would have been all-over blue in the early to mid 1970s, with only gangwayed ones being in blue and grey. The odd green one might have still been around in 1972, and blue and grey for non-gangwayed units didn't come in until the 1980s.

These (below) are 4SUBs. Note the driver's door (on the EPBs access to the cab was through the guard's compartment) and the use of stencils instead of roller blinds for the route code. (although the one on the left seems to have the route code written on the iluminated panel instead! Note also that the SUBs required a tail lamp (as seen on the unit on the left) whereas EPBs had a red panel in the roller blinds to act as a tail light. (As seen on unit 5014 EPB above)
14371199943_c1788f2e42_b.jpg
And finally, the one-off prototype PEP train. It was actually made up of three units: two four car and one two car, but on the SW it only ran as an eight car train. (They also ran trials on the South Eastern, where platforms were long enough for a ten coach train). Originally the two 4-car sets were blue and the 2-car was unpainted aluminium, but at some point the 2-car swapped one if its cars with one of the 4-cars, as can be seen here with the fifth car of this eight-car formation in unpainted aluminium. Unlike the later classes 313, 314, 315, 507 and 508 derived from this prototype, the intermediate cars in the PEPs had three sets of doors.
8718786248_077ccc0494_z.jpg
 
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Roger1973

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Another site good on Southern Railway / Region detail is Southern Railway e-mail Group. This includes pages on stations and on different types of multiple unit.

The Southern Electric Group is also a source of much knowledge on all things Southern Electric - although I don't know how much is freely available on the website rather than paid-for publications / available to members only.

A search on 4 EPB and 4 SUB on photo sites like Flickr will bring quite a few photos up.

My memories don't start until the later half of the 1970s, but I'm fairly sure I never saw a Southern unit in green livery (other than the 'celebrity' units done in to green livery towards the end of their service life, and the preserved 2 BIL.) I'm not sure when the last units in green had been withdrawn or re-painted. The blue livery came in in the mid / late 60s, but from what I gather, the Southern Region continued the habit of 're-varnishing' rather than re-painting so units would have received the new livery on repaint, rather than everything being repainted overnight - there would have been a few years where some were in green and some in blue. I can't remember ever seeing photographs of a Southern Region unit with a mix liveries (although there would almost certainly have been occasions where an 8+ coach train would have been formed with one green unit and one blue unit (or other combinations) but that doesn't prove it didn't happen.

There was then a later transition from plain blue to blue + grey (previously suburban units were plain blue, only 'main line' - as in 4 VEP and higher specification - units got blue + grey livery) but think it that was in to the 80s. I am fairly sure that no 4 SUB units ever received blue + grey livery, and again don't remember ever seeing any 'mixed' unit.
 

Ken X

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Wonderful stuff, more research required on our part using the very useful leads given. Many thanks.

Our memories are from the mid sixties to 76 when we moved away but my brother, (number 2 son), is the youngest and remembers the early 70's better so this is his target era. Should be an interesting project.

Funny how things vanish and you never notice them going until you take time to think and discuss. Sounds like a multitude of doors slamming, stuttering of air valves and the air compressors starting and running under the carriage. The railway was a very different soundscape then but we can still recall it being regular users.
 

30907

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@norbitonflyer has produced a superb pictorial essay. Only one thing to add - the SR-type 2EPB - which as you might guess looked very like half a 4-EPB - were common on Windsor/Weybridge services (in my memory, more so than the BR style), whereas the Cobham line 4EPBs were BR style.
Around 1970 a few units would still have been in green but the majority in blue.
 

Taunton

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The transition from SUB to EPB, although the bodywork looked similar, was technically substantial. The SUB had no low voltage circuits, it was full line voltage or nothing. So no starting bells, into the 1980s it was look back for a green flag at every station, hence the change in the driver's side window and door. There was a big clearout of all the SUB (and HAL etc) units from the Eastern Section around 1960 as the Kent electrification was done at 750v, higher than the previous Southern standard, which the EPB were insulated for but not older units, so these went to the other two divisions.

Although the bodywork of the EPB units was new in the 1950s, many were put on the underframes of withdrawn older units like the 2-NOL, and were to the old Southern standard of 62' length, compared to the Mk1 64', so kept using the old construction jigs. All the SR-pattern 2-car units, both EPB and HAP, were like this, and these were actually built well after the BR-pattern 2-car units started coming along.
 

contrex

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As I understand it, the Southern Railway 6-PUL/PAN type stock could (and did) run on the Kent Coast 750v areas, they had motor generators for the lighting and heating, unlike the series strings of bulbs and heater elements on stock like the SUBs.
 

D7666

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All you ever need to know :


specifically for this thread on 4Sub and SR 4EPB :


and any other sub (pun intended) class you want.

Yes it was mentioned upthread.

The other thing is the Shepperton branch for - non passenger - was always used by BR SR CM&EE for all sorts of EMU testing, being the nearest not-so-busy and easily isolated line to Strawberry HIll where the engineers were based. Anything BR SR you can think of will have been there up to and including 319s and 457s so if you are modelling technically you can away with anything. I am not sure if 465s were tested there****, I think they might have been, their AC kit might /then/ have been a blocking point (which was why one 319 was modified as a 465 tractor and they could fully multiple not just couple; the 319 was needed to move 465 from the Strawberry Hill test base to wherever real tests were needed).

A little outside your time frame yes but you could make up anything you want and it would fit.

Motor cars Romeo and Juliet ere also regular performers to Shepperton mated with whatever EPB/Hap/etc was in use at the time.

Romeo

Can't quickly locate image 975809 Juliet but from memory was similar but different

Essentially DC chopper test motor coaches pre dating the chopper 455s; AIUI one was GEC the other Brush kit.

All sorts of scope for the unusual.


**** EDIT
yes they were
and
even a you tune video
 
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Taunton

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The other thing is the Shepperton branch for - non passenger - was always used by BR SR CM&EE for all sorts of EMU testing, being the nearest not-so-busy and easily isolated line to Strawberry Hill where the engineers were based.
Do I remember correctly that one of the CM&EE tests was into braking, which involved some form of greasing the rails. Test finished, cleared away ... and the first public service afterwards lost all grip when braking for the terminus and went straight through the buffers at Shepperton
 

D7666

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Do I remember correctly that one of the CM&EE tests was into braking, which involved some form of greasing the rails. Test finished, cleared away ... and the first public service afterwards lost all grip when braking for the terminus and went straight through the buffers at Shepperton
Not heard that or if I did I have forgotten

But they tested all manner of things there so entirely plausible.
 

norbitonflyer

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Do I remember correctly that one of the CM&EE tests was into braking, which involved some form of greasing the rails. Test finished, cleared away ... and the first public service afterwards lost all grip when braking for the terminus and went straight through the buffers at Shepperton
R.404031f37e76a7986933de43d01d5d0f
 

30907

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The transition from SUB to EPB, although the bodywork looked similar, was technically substantial. The SUB had no low voltage circuits, it was full line voltage or nothing. So no starting bells, into the 1980s it was look back for a green flag at every station, hence the change in the driver's side window and door. There was a big clearout of all the SUB (and HAL etc) units from the Eastern Section around 1960 as the Kent electrification was done at 750v, higher than the previous Southern standard, which the EPB were insulated for but not older units, so these went to the other two divisions.
A further reason for moving Subs off the Eastern was the 10-car scheme - which required the BR 2EPBs. The Chatham suburban lines kept some Subs until 1959 IIRC.
 

nw1

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For the early 70s you would basically be looking at 4-Subs, though and Strawberry Hill IIRC used to use the Shepperton branch for testing all sorts.

I have the winter 72 and 77-78 carriage workings: in 72 Shepperton was almost exclusively Sub, with a couple of trains booked 3x2EPB (SR or BR type) and one 2x 4EPB. Strawberry Hill was booked to stable an odd 4Cig off the Reading line.

Sorry, a little bit OT but if I asked some specific questions on stock formations of mainline services (CIG, VEP etc) in those years, would you be happy to give the info?

For my part I can give some info about 1981, which I realise is a bit out of the time frame but not a million miles away, I guess, and might be of general interest.

In 1981 most services were 508s mixed in with a few EPB and SUB workings. In addition there was an 8CIG operated working (1604 Waterloo-Shepperton returning at 1656).

I have the CWNs for 1981 and 1982 (sent to me by others) so quite happy to answer any questions on those years.
 

Gloster

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Do I remember correctly that one of the CM&EE tests was into braking, which involved some form of greasing the rails. Test finished, cleared away ... and the first public service afterwards lost all grip when braking for the terminus and went straight through the buffers at Shepperton

Wikipedia (yes, I know how far you can trust that) says that although not cleaning the rails after tests was initially thought to be the cause, it was later found that the unit‘s brakes were faulty. It refers to an item in the local newsletter and says the train was the 06.34 Waterloo, which probably wasn’t the first down train on a Wednesday.
 

30907

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Sorry, a little bit OT but if I asked some specific questions on stock formations of mainline services (CIG, VEP etc) in those years, would you be happy to give the info?
Within reason, certainly. It may also be worth checking if there are scanned versions online (somewhere in groups.io?).
 

nw1

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Within reason, certainly. It may also be worth checking if there are scanned versions online (somewhere in groups.io?).

OK that's great, thanks. I'm very familiar with what is available on groups.io, and Southern Region/NSE/SWT EMU workings from the 70s to the 90s is a bit of a blind spot, sadly.

So my main queries are as follows, I'll post them here as they are likely to be of interest to the group as a whole. Feel free to answer as much or as little as you are comfortable with (questions relate to both 1972 and 1977):

a) Reading and Guildford via Camberley 1972: Were these CIGs, VEPs or a mixture of both? If a mixture, were the CIGs concentrated on the faster services and the VEPs on the slower?
b) Reading and Guildford via Camberley 1977: same question as a).
c) Portsmouth Direct 1972: I'm guessing the fasts were mostly CIG/BIG formations and the stoppers were VEPs. Any exceptions during the daytime off-peak?
d) Portsmouth Direct 1977: what stock did the slower services (departing xx20 Waterloo) have, mostly?
e) If it's not too big a job, would you be able to look up the stock of all the mainline departures on the SWML fast lines in the peak between around 1700-1830 (i.e. anything going Woking or beyond) for both 1972 and 1977?

If it's too big a job to do all this, don't worry!

Thanks.
 

D7666

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Having disc brakes rather than the traditional tread brakes didn't help.
Maybe the brake testing that they had been doing overnight WAS with disc brakes ?

Ohh that incident

I not appreciated that 508 was after rail adhesion testing.
508 at Shepperton = Southern Pep smashing through station buffer stops. :rolleyes:

313 at Walton = Eastern Pep smashing through station buffer stops.:rolleyes:

507/508 (twice) at Kirbky = Midland Pep smashing through station buffer stops. :rolleyes:

All three of thise incidents were not just mere buffer stop collisions, they were destructive heavy impacts to or through them.

Were there ever a 314 to make a Scottish pep similarly smashing through station buffer stops to make the full set ? :lol:

The non electric Western never had any Pep of course; and the Southern did not oblige by an event at Reading.
 
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Big Jumby 74

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Brake testing was never done on the approach to a terminus. That would have been utter madness! Controlled brake tests were undertaken on that branch, but at (eg) Kempton Park, which had a very long down platform (far longer than 8 car) which allowed for accurate results to be recorded based on speed entering platform and time/distance to come to a safe stop.
 

30907

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OK that's great, thanks. I'm very familiar with what is available on groups.io, and Southern Region/NSE/SWT EMU workings from the 70s to the 90s is a bit of a blind spot, sadly.

So my main queries are as follows, I'll post them here as they are likely to be of interest to the group as a whole. Feel free to answer as much or as little as you are comfortable with (questions relate to both 1972 and 1977):

a) Reading and Guildford via Camberley 1972: Were these CIGs, VEPs or a mixture of both? If a mixture, were the CIGs concentrated on the faster services and the VEPs on the slower?
b) Reading and Guildford via Camberley 1977: same question as a).
c) Portsmouth Direct 1972: I'm guessing the fasts were mostly CIG/BIG formations and the stoppers were VEPs. Any exceptions during the daytime off-peak?
d) Portsmouth Direct 1977: what stock did the slower services (departing xx20 Waterloo) have, mostly?
e) If it's not too big a job, would you be able to look up the stock of all the mainline departures on the SWML fast lines in the peak between around 1700-1830 (i.e. anything going Woking or beyond) for both 1972 and 1977?

If it's too big a job to do all this, don't worry!

Thanks.
I'll have a go in the next couple of days.
 
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OK, lots to digest there for which we are very grateful. We will have to read up on all the EMUs types listed here to educate ourselves.

The only things we can remember were that there were no corridors, just compartments with a door either side and (I think) we remember a guards compartment but this may be wrong. Funnily enough I can't recall the colour of the units but that's age for you. :)

The link given by 30907 will be thoroughly perused.

With regards tot he SUB that is correct they would not have had corridors. But compartments is where it gets some what confusing. During the 1970s/ early 1980s compartment trailers where swaped out. When a unit was withdrawn a compartment trailer would be taken out and swaped with a in service unit (TSO to TS). (Blood and custard as referenced in D7666 post)

The last compartments that where in regular service with the SUBs was 1981 bar 4732. 4732 was the last unit left with a compartment trailer and TS (Formation of MBS - TS - TSO - MBS) due to being involved in a accident in 1974 where the compartment trailer was swapped with another compartment trailer from 4381 and motor coach 12795 subsquently repaired. Attached is a couple of pics of the compartment trailer from a few years ago (photo by Graeme Gleaves).

Our facebook page is www.facebook.com/4subunit

Also feel free to have a look at this thread on the current status of some of the surving EPBs - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ss-457-spondon-and-ruston-165de-mazda.249284/
 

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Taunton

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The last compartments that were in regular service with the SUBs was 1981 bar 4732.
Interesting to contemplate the last non-corridor compartment we all took in a non-heritage operation. Mine was I think in 1980, in a Class 302 Fenchurch Street to Southend. Can't think of a later one, although they were doubtless available.

Last SUB was probably late 1982. I recall alighting at Earlsfield and being surprised at the green flag rigmarole, held stiffly rectangular, for departure.
 

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