Shepperton Branch stock 1970 to 75

[Gloster]

A 5x2HAP consist went through the buffers at Sheerness in 1971, killing a woman on the concourse. A 313 went through the stops at Walton-on-Naze in 1987.

 

[nw1]

I'll have a go in the next couple of days.

OK - many thanks.

 

[D7666]

Interesting to contemplate the last non-corridor compartment we all took in a non-heritage operation. Mine was I think in 1980, in a Class 302 Fenchurch Street to Southend. Can't think of a later one, although they were doubtless available

501s to 1985 ? IIRC some were opened out and some not ? Or am I muddling things ?

504s to 1991 ? Ditto question were they opened out or not ? I think not ? TBH can't remember.

501s and 504s did not get refurbled like SR and ER units did which was when /most/ opening out of compos into saloons was done.

 

[Ken X]

Quickly grabbed a minute to pop into the forum and we have yet more useful information. It just gets better and better.

Had a chat to younger bro last night and he is very happy with the wealth of data he has to wade through. Funnily enough he does remember some green stock so there you go. Thanks again to all who have contributed.

 

[nw1]

Interesting to contemplate the last non-corridor compartment we all took in a non-heritage operation. Mine was I think in 1980, in a Class 302 Fenchurch Street to Southend. Can't think of a later one, although they were doubtless available.

Last SUB was probably late 1982. I recall alighting at Earlsfield and being surprised at the green flag rigmarole, held stiffly rectangular, for departure.

I'm actually not sure whether I've ever used a non-corridor compartment on non-heritage stock, despite first using the railway in 1982.

For non-gangwayed stock, I think it was a 305 on the Glossop line at the end of 1996. (I don't think they were gangwayed?)

For SR non-gangwayed stock it would be a HAP on July 4th or 5th 1991, which was consequently my last ever trip on a HAP.

The service had been 2nd-class only since the 1940s so outer suburban stock (Class 414 - 2HAP or Class 423 - 4VEP, in various combinations) would have been a rarity although by no means unknown - VEPs were occasionally still seen in the mid 1990s.

And (as stated above) an 8CIG (2 x Class 421) even went down there and back as a regular diagrammed working in 1981 (1604 down and 1656 back up), for operational reasons presumably - something to do with platforming and avoiding conflicts in the peak at Waterloo, I guess.

 

[Taunton]

The service had been 2nd-class only since the 1940s so outer suburban stock (Class 414 - 2HAP or Class 423 - 4VEP, in various combinations) would have been a rarity although by no means unknown - VEPs were occasionally still seen in the mid 1990s.

Services wholly within the London Transport Area (broadly today's TfL/M25 boundary) were declassified by government order in 1940, and first class never came back there. Hence why London is different to other cities in the country.

The earliest SUBs had some first class compartment widths (and one less compartment) in one of the cars, and these lasted in service, upholstered standard of course, for the rest of their operation. I wonder if anyone was able to spot them, with a bit of extra legroom. I believe first class tickets continued to be sold on services running in from outside, such as for East Croydon to Victoria.

 

[30907]

So here goes:

a) Reading and Guildford via Camberley 1972: Were these CIGs, VEPs or a mixture of both? If a mixture, were the CIGs concentrated on the faster services and the VEPs on the slower?

Almost entirely CIG. The only Veps at Reading arrived on evening xx40 fasts!

b) Reading and Guildford via Camberley 1977: same question as a).

Still very largely CIG. This was the 4tph era with hardly any Ascot splits!
Reading: CIG+2Sap x2, 8VEP on 0700 ex Gford, 0854 ex Wloo, Cig+2EPB on 1753 Wloo.

c) Portsmouth Direct 1972: I'm guessing the fasts were mostly CIG/BIG formations and the stoppers were VEPs. Any exceptions during the daytime off-peak?

Almost entirely CigBigCig on fasts/semis and Veps on stoppers.
0522 down/0802 up (Southsea) was 6Hap.
0659 up/1726 down 12Vep, 0753/1826 ditto 8Vep (semi-fast extras IIRC).
4EPB plus Vep on 1552 down slow.

d) Portsmouth Direct 1977: what stock did the slower services (departing xx20 Waterloo) have, mostly?

Mostly Cig (8/12) but 12 Vep on 0820, 2320, 8 Vep on 0722, 1220, 1320, 1800
8Vep 2Sap on 1710, 8Vep 4Cig on 1740.

e) If it's not too big a job, would you be able to look up the stock of all the mainline departures on the SWML fast lines in the peak between around 1700-1830 (i.e. anything going Woking or beyond) for both 1972 and 1977?

I'll come back to that next time.

 

[nw1]

So here goes:


(1972 Reading) Almost entirely CIG. The only Veps at Reading arrived on evening xx40 fasts!

(1977 Reading) Still very largely CIG. This was the 4tph era with hardly any Ascot splits!
Reading: CIG+2Sap x2, 8VEP on 0700 ex Gford, 0854 ex Wloo, Cig+2EPB on 1753 Wloo.

(1972 Portsmouth Direct) Almost entirely CigBigCig on fasts/semis and Veps on stoppers.
0522 down/0802 up (Southsea) was 6Hap.
0659 up/1726 down 12Vep, 0753/1826 ditto 8Vep (semi-fast extras IIRC).
4EPB plus Vep on 1552 down slow.

(1977 Portsmouth Direct) Mostly Cig (8/12) but 12 Vep on 0820, 2320, 8 Vep on 0722, 1220, 1320, 1800
8Vep 2Sap on 1710, 8Vep 4Cig on 1740.

I'll come back to that next time.

Thanks for the info - interesting to see how things were in the 70s.

Looks like in 1972 each line was more homogeneous, so to speak, compared to the 80s and 90s when stock was mixed up a little more.
The Reading routes being mostly operated by CIGs in the 70s (in contrast to the 80s when it was about 2:1 VEP:CIG) has come up before but interesting to see it confirmed with a real CWN.

Will look forward to the peak workings when you are able to do them.

 

[30907]

Thanks for the info - interesting to see how things were in the 70s.

Looks like in 1972 each line was more homogeneous, so to speak, compared to the 80s and 90s when stock was mixed up a little more.
The Reading routes being mostly operated by CIGs in the 70s (in contrast to the 80s when it was about 2:1 VEP:CIG) has come up before but interesting to see it confirmed with a real CWN.

Will look forward to the peak workings when you are able to do them.

Being lazy, I've photographed the relevant pages for 1972 and 1977. The only train missing is the Exeter at 1705/1700 which was hauled 33+8 Mk1 (9 in summer).

 

[nw1]

Many thanks for those! Will take a look and provide any information (e.g. comparisons with other years) which might be of interest.

 

[30907]

Many thanks for those! Will take a look and provide any information (e.g. comparisons with other years) which might be of interest.

I started on doing a comparison, but gave up for lack of time/energy.

One I did notice from 1972 was the 8 Sub on the 1740 via Cobham - I had thought that was a 100% EPB route, and back then they were all first stop Surbiton too.

 

[nw1]

I started on doing a comparison, but gave up for lack of time/energy.

One I did notice from 1972 was the 8 Sub on the 1740 via Cobham - I had thought that was a 100% EPB route, and back then they were all first stop Surbiton too.

Have now looked at 1972 and will make some comments because it's interesting to compare with the first SWML electrification CWN of 1967, which is available on the BR Coaching Stock group on groups.io.

The 1972 service pattern in the peak is basically more or less the same as that of 1967, with just a few tweaks, despite the major stock renewal in the intervening period. (Another group member sent me the 1974 timetable, and that was, from what I can see, identical to 1972).

The 1740 Guildford via Cobham, as the 1739, is also an 8SUB formation in 1967, interestingly, though the stock is sourced from Durnsford Road (i.e. Wimbledon) in 1967 while it's from Clapham Yard in 1972.

It's interesting that in many cases, not all, there has been a direct "mapping" of the older generation of stock to the newer (e.g CORs to CIGs, BILs to VEPs).

On the Alton line in 1967, the off-peak services were BILs (the slower ones) or HAPs (the faster ones, combining with Bournemouth stoppers) but many of the peak services were CORs. Interestingly, three of those COR-operated services in 1967 (the 1732, 1744, and 1802) went over to 12CIG formations in 1972, even though off-peak services were (I believe) VEPs. That said the 1722 (was COR) became 8VEP+2HAP and the 1822 (also COR) became 8HAP, interestingly off an out-and-back Hampton Court working.

Also in 1967 the 1720 Woking stopper was 12COR which might seem odd, except it then worked back to Waterloo empty and formed the 1840 semi-fast to Portsmouth. In 1972, the exact same diagram remained (now 1718 to Woking, still forming 1840 Portsmouth) now operated by 12CIG.

In a further example, the BIL-operated Portsmouth Direct peak services of 1967 went over to VEPs by 1972.

Aother interesting preservation is the 1728 Farnham stopper: 8VEP + 4EPB in 1972, and the rough equivalent, 8BIL + 4SUB in 1967.

However, the 1748 Woking stopper was 12CIG in 1972, while it was 12BIL in 1967. (Wonder what happened to this next? CIGs on peak Woking stoppers have been distinctly rare so I'd guess it then formed a fast later on)

I note the 1558 stopper from Portsmouth due 1825 then goes over to the Windsor Lines. I would presume that this is one of the rare VEP workings towards Reading that you mention above.

The 1820 Woking stopper is formed 8EPB, while in 1967 this was also (in an exception to the norm) suburban stock, but was 8SUB then.

Returning to the subject of this thread, Shepperton appears to be mostly 8SUB as expected but an exception is the 1626, due 1711, forming the 1718 to Chessington, formed of 8VEP. Presumably this formed a main-line service later - and it echoes the 80s which had a very small number of mainline stock workings on each line.

Generally the suburban services seemed to be mostly SUBs on the mainline side, with EPBs only on the Guildford via Cobham and very occasional other services. This was also the case in 1967. The 1729 loop service was an EPB exception in 1972, but was formed of SUBs in 1967.

Thanks again for these scans, will comment on 1977 later and compare it primarily with the early-80s workings as 1977 was the year when the "80s" peak pattern was introduced, replacing the original 1967 pattern.

 

[Gloster]

I started on doing a comparison, but gave up for lack of time/energy.

One I did notice from 1972 was the 8 Sub on the 1740 via Cobham - I had thought that was a 100% EPB route, and back then they were all first stop Surbiton too.

I have just looked at the 1971, 1975 and 1981 public timetables and all confirm my recollection that the 42 via Cobham trains normally stopped at Wimbledon: it was Wimbledon, Surbiton and all stops.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Also in 1967 the 1720 Woking stopper was 12COR which might seem odd, except it then worked back to Waterloo empty and formed the 1840 semi-fast to Portsmouth

Not that unusual in diagramming sense, as Waterloo in the core peaks could be very complicated, and so to keep that aspect as smooth (operationally) as possible, various 'positioning' moves would take place before the start of (in this case) the evening peak.

However, the 1748 Woking stopper was 12CIG in 1972, while it was 12BIL in 1967. (Wonder what happened to this next? CIGs on peak Woking stoppers have been distinctly rare so I'd guess it then formed a fast later on)

The 1748 was a Woking finish (for the day), the 12 Cig shunting in to East End Sdg 1 at Woking at 18+33. It's next move was the 0715 Woking to Alton next SX day, thence 0807 Alton to Waterloo and then empty to Wimbledon depot. It remained spare at Woking over Sat & Sun, unless used STP of course for weekend engineering works, in which case it would have been replaced by another 12 Cig before start of service on Monday.

Returning to the subject of this thread, Shepperton appears to be mostly 8SUB as expected but an exception is the 1626, due 1711, forming the 1718 to Chessington, formed of 8VEP

Afraid not. That's a 'clerical error' on the Waterloo page. That diagram is actually 8 Sub!

 

[nw1]

I have just looked at the 1971, 1975 and 1981 public timetables and all confirm my recollection that the 42 via Cobham trains normally stopped at Wimbledon: it was Wimbledon, Surbiton and all stops.

Incidentally, regarding 1975, what was the Portsmouth Direct pattern that year?

Was it the early-70s pattern still, i.e. xx20 fast (Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, PSS, PH); xx50 semi-fast (also Woking, Godalming and Petersfield) and xx52 stopper (Wimbledon, Surbiton then all except Hilsea; overtaken at Guildford)?
Or had it become the late-70s pattern by then, i.e. xx50 the fast and the xx20 now stopping at all stations except Hilsea south of Guildford, and xx22 the overtaken stopper?

Thanks.

Not that unusual in diagramming sense, as Waterloo in the core peaks could be very complicated, and so to keep that aspect as smooth (operationally) as possible, various 'positioning' moves would take place before the start of (in this case) the evening peak.

The 1748 was a Woking finish (for the day), the 12 Cig shunting in to East End Sdg 1 at Woking at 18+33. It's next move was the 0715 Woking to Alton next SX day, thence 0807 Alton to Waterloo and then empty to Wimbledon depot. It remained spare at Woking over Sat & Sun, unless used STP of course for weekend engineering works, in which case it would have been replaced by another 12 Cig before start of service on Monday.

Afraid not. That's a 'clerical error' on the Waterloo page. That diagram is actually 8 Sub!

Thanks for the info!

Incidentally the 0715 Woking to Alton and (as was) 0804 Alton to Waterloo were 12COR in 1967 (mirroring the 12CIG in 1972) however the rest of the diagram was different, the stock coming out of Wimbledon sidings that morning and then going empty to Farnham.

 

[Gloster]

Incidentally, regarding 1975, what was the Portsmouth Direct pattern that year?

xx.20 Gui, Has, Hav, P&S, PH.
xx.50 Wo, Gui, God, Has, Hav, P&S, PH
xx.52 Wim, Sur and all stops except Hilsea to P&S; overtaken Gui (also an xx.22 same pattern to Gui).

 

[nw1]

xx.20 Gui, Has, Hav, P&S, PH.
xx.50 Wo, Gui, God, Has, Hav, P&S, PH
xx.52 Wim, Sur and all stops except Hilsea to P&S; overtaken Gui (also an xx.22 same pattern to Gui).

OK, thanks, so basically the early 70s pattern in 1975. I'm guessing that was the case in 1976 too (if anyone has the timetable for that year)?

No Petersfield on the xx50 incidentally?

 

[Gloster]

OK, thanks, so basically the early 70s pattern in 1975. I'm guessing that was the case in 1976 too (if anyone has the timetable for that year)?

No Petersfield on the xx50 incidentally?

You are correct: I missed the Petersfield stop in the xx.50, as it did call there. (Blasted spellcheck kept changing every abbreviation into something else.)

 

[Dr_Paul]

That would not have occurred had they finished off the line as originally intended, along to Chertsey.

 

[nw1]

You are correct: I missed the Petersfield stop in the xx.50, as it did call there. (Blasted spellcheck kept changing every abbreviation into something else.)

Ah ok, thanks. I thought as much.

EDIT:

A few comments on 1977: this was, I believe, the year in which the "80s" peak pattern was introduced.

It was a much simpler and more regular pattern on the fast lines than the somewhat irregular pattern that existed in 1972 (introduced 1967).

The main lines essentially had this pattern on a repeating 10-minutely basis, which was the pattern I was familiar with when I first observed the evening peak in 1983.

xxx0 Portsmouth Direct
xxx2 Guildford via Cobham (not in every 10-min slot)
xxx4 SWML semi-fast or stopping services, towards Basingstoke or beyond. The 1977 timetable showed a big uplift on this route, presumably due to hugely increased commuting in the 70s.
xxx6 stoppers to Woking (all beyond Surbiton) or beyond.
xxx8 Alton (every 20 mins only)

On the suburban routes, it's notable that there are many more EPBs on the main side compared to 1972 (and indeed 1967). Also of interest are the PEPs working the 1704 Shepperton.

In terms of mainline stock it's the same sort of mix as was present in the early 80s, but slightly more in the way of CIGs on stopping services. All HAPs appeared to be de-classified as SAPs in this era, and there were, ironically, less SAPs (HAPs) than in the early 80s on mainline peak services.

There was quite an impressive frequency on the slow lines in the peak in 1977. For example towards Epsom the frequency was higher than 10-minutely, with a few limited stop services calling only at Clapham Junction, Wimbledon then fast to Worcester Park, immediately followed by an all-stations stopper. Also 3tph to Hampton Court and Chessington in the height of the peak - this had gone by 1982. Wonder how they managed to fit in so many services on the slow lines at that time, as (AFAIK) the frequency in recent times, even before Covid, has been substantially less.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Also of interest are the PEPs working the 1704 Shepperton.

Don't suppose you have detail of the 8 Pep working that involved a late afternoon/ early evening (SX) Sheppy to Waterloo in late (November) 1976 by chance? I rode a train thus formed from Kingston to N.Malden for a week, but in the nearest CWN I have (May 77 to May 78) the nearest diagram the 8 Pep was on was the 1756 Sheppy to Waterloo, which strikes me (from a very misty memory) as being an hour or so later than I remember?

 

[nw1]

Don't suppose you have detail of the 8 Pep working that involved a late afternoon/ early evening (SX) Sheppy to Waterloo in late (November) 1976 by chance? I rode a train thus formed from Kingston to N.Malden for a week, but in the nearest CWN I have (May 77 to May 78) the nearest diagram the 8 Pep was on was the 1756 Sheppy to Waterloo, which strikes me (from a very misty memory) as being an hour or so later than I remember?

Sadly not, no: the 70s was very much before my time when it comes to the SWD, and all the info I have on the 70s is thanks to the generosity of other contributors (including yourself!)

In particular my comments above are a summary of @30907 's CWN scan of the 1977 evening peak.

1976 is a year I'd like to find out more about too, as I think it was the final year of the old 1967 peak pattern and the 1970 (introduction of CIGs/BIGs) Portsmouth Direct off-peak pattern - but I'm not sure.

 

[satisnek]

That would not have occurred had they finished off the line as originally intended, along to Chertsey.

Nah, if that had happened then they would have done the adhesion tests at the Chertsey Bridge terminus and the unit could possibly have ended up in the river.

Fascinating documentation, by the way.