Shortage of buses to replace trains

[Deepgreen]

NRE has a note about a lack of available buses to provide rail replacement services for Thameslink this weekend, leaving some periods uncovered. This appears to be becoming more frequent and I wonder whether engineering works are currently planned with bus availability in mind or, if not, will they have to be in future?

 

[Flying Snail]

That would very much be an example of tail-wagging-dog.

 

[philthetube]

It is but when the tail wags the dog it needs sorting.

 

[Deepgreen]

That would very much be an example of tail-wagging-dog.

I agree, but having increasing cases of no rail replacement is unacceptable, and needs to be taken into account, I suggest.

 

[Horizon22]

I agree, but having increasing cases of no rail replacement is unacceptable, and needs to be taken into account, I suggest.

What's the alternative? Stop all engineering works? Works are planned months if not years in advance, whilst unavailability of rail replacement transport is normally only communicated weeks in advance. One issue is the money that TOCs have been allowed to pay for this which is much more inflexible with the DfT having a tighter reign on things.

This has been going on for near 3 years now across the country.

 

[Flying Snail]

I agree, but having increasing cases of no rail replacement is unacceptable, and needs to be taken into account, I suggest.

If the engineering work is not done there will be a lot more periods with no trains running, except these will be occurring at very short notice with no chance of any RRBs being put in place.

The solution is simple; pay bus operators enough to make the RRB work worth signing up for.

 

[philthetube]

Although the practicality of Network rail running a bus fleet has been discussed and rejected, I wonder if the practicalities of running a driver team has been considered involving :-

Part time PCV drivers being provided accommodation using local spare buses at weekends, I feel confident the the likes of Arriva, first group etc would like the revenue.

 

[Roger1973]

It's drivers, not buses that is the shortage.

Most bus operators are struggling to run their regular services at the moment, and the drivers who want to do overtime / rest day work are working as many hours as they want to keep the regular services going, and don't have the need or the driving hours left to go and do rail replacement work at weekends.

As with most things in life, there's a variety of reasons behind this, including -

post-Brexit referendum, a proportion of drivers from EU countries have 'gone home';

the supply of new drivers was disrupted because training / tests more or less stopped during lockdown;

the time it takes to get a provisional PCV licence and test means that people who need to get a job (rather than people who want to change job) often give up during the wait and go off to take a job where they can start straight away;

the demand for delivery van drivers on similar sort of pay increased significantly during lockdown, and some existing PCV drivers - as well as potential PCV drivers who can do the job on a car licence (and therefore start immediately) - have gone in to that line of work;

a proportion of part time drivers have not kept their PCV licence up, again partly a product of lockdown and work stopping, which will have prompted some drivers to go from semi retired to fully retired (bearing in mind that drivers aged 45+ need to renew and do a medical every 5 years, and drivers over 60 (or may be 65?) need to renew with a medical every year - and then there's the annual CPC day. In theory that's tax deductible if your employer doesn't pay for it, but if you only work part time and don't quite earn enough to pay income tax, that doesn't help...)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's drivers, not buses that is the shortage.

I suspect there's a little bit of both factors at play, hence the use of coaches with extremely narrow 3+2 seats designed for primary-school children on Rail Replacement work.

 

[geoffk]

It's drivers, not buses that is the shortage.

Most bus operators are struggling to run their regular services at the moment, and the drivers who want to do overtime / rest day work are working as many hours as they want to keep the regular services going, and don't have the need or the driving hours left to go and do rail replacement work at weekends.

As with most things in life, there's a variety of reasons behind this, including -

post-Brexit referendum, a proportion of drivers from EU countries have 'gone home';

the supply of new drivers was disrupted because training / tests more or less stopped during lockdown;

the time it takes to get a provisional PCV licence and test means that people who need to get a job (rather than people who want to change job) often give up during the wait and go off to take a job where they can start straight away;

the demand for delivery van drivers on similar sort of pay increased significantly during lockdown, and some existing PCV drivers - as well as potential PCV drivers who can do the job on a car licence (and therefore start immediately) - have gone in to that line of work;

a proportion of part time drivers have not kept their PCV licence up, again partly a product of lockdown and work stopping, which will have prompted some drivers to go from semi retired to fully retired (bearing in mind that drivers aged 45+ need to renew and do a medical every 5 years, and drivers over 60 (or may be 65?) need to renew with a medical every year - and then there's the annual CPC day. In theory that's tax deductible if your employer doesn't pay for it, but if you only work part time and don't quite earn enough to pay income tax, that doesn't help...)

a good summary - plus bus drivers choosing to take advantage of the shortage of HGV drivers (but how many have stuck at it I've no idea, given the generally poor working conditions, especially for overnight stays).

 

[Roger1973]

I suspect there's a little bit of both factors at play, hence the use of coaches with extremely narrow 3+2 seats designed for primary-school children on Rail Replacement work.

That was a thing 10 years or so back when I worked part time as a rail replacement controller. They were disapproved of, but at that time, nobody seemed able to make a firm decision that they weren't acceptable.

The two are linked - if company A has got drivers available, but the only vehicles available are school buses, then is that better than using company B who has the right sort of coach but no drivers available?

a good summary - plus bus drivers choosing to take advantage of the shortage of HGV drivers (but how many have stuck at it I've no idea, given the generally poor working conditions, especially for overnight stays).

and of course shortage of bus drivers is cyclical with the economy / labour market in general. There's people out there who hold a PCV licence but have a 'trade' as well, and will do whichever pays better (or whichever jobs are available in) at any time.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's drivers, not buses that is the shortage.

Most bus operators are struggling to run their regular services at the moment, and the drivers who want to do overtime / rest day work are working as many hours as they want to keep the regular services going, and don't have the need or the driving hours left to go and do rail replacement work at weekends.

As with most things in life, there's a variety of reasons behind this, including -

post-Brexit referendum, a proportion of drivers from EU countries have 'gone home';

the supply of new drivers was disrupted because training / tests more or less stopped during lockdown;

the time it takes to get a provisional PCV licence and test means that people who need to get a job (rather than people who want to change job) often give up during the wait and go off to take a job where they can start straight away;

the demand for delivery van drivers on similar sort of pay increased significantly during lockdown, and some existing PCV drivers - as well as potential PCV drivers who can do the job on a car licence (and therefore start immediately) - have gone in to that line of work;

a proportion of part time drivers have not kept their PCV licence up, again partly a product of lockdown and work stopping, which will have prompted some drivers to go from semi retired to fully retired (bearing in mind that drivers aged 45+ need to renew and do a medical every 5 years, and drivers over 60 (or may be 65?) need to renew with a medical every year - and then there's the annual CPC day. In theory that's tax deductible if your employer doesn't pay for it, but if you only work part time and don't quite earn enough to pay income tax, that doesn't help...)

Yes, I meant buses in the wider sense - i.e. available road transport. I don't pretend to know what the solution is, but the situation seems to creeping into the 'acceptable/norm' category and can only worsen if not addressed.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, I meant buses in the wider sense - i.e. available road transport. I don't pretend to know what the solution is, but the situation seems to creeping into the 'acceptable/norm' category and can only worsen if not addressed.

The issue is that there is only so much the railway can do to "address" it, the issue appears to be more of a structrural problem. I started a thread about this 18 months ago.

Short of Network Rail funding a fleet of buses and drivers that can go anywhere in the country, it seems hard to resolve in the short-term.

 

[HSTEd]

In the long run it might become necessary to adopt more expensive infrastructure solutions that would reduce the amount of future disruption from maintenance work.

But that would take decades to have any real impact.

 

[Deepgreen]

The issue is that there is only so much the railway can do to "address" it, the issue appears to be more of a structrural problem. I started a thread about this 18 months ago.

Short of Network Rail funding a fleet of buses and drivers that can go anywhere in the country, it seems hard to resolve in the short-term.

I agree - it's beyond the railway's ability to solve alone but I do worry that, to use a mangled cliche, it's the thin end of the iceberg! Apologies if I've duplicated a thread.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Dont know if this has already been mentioned. I think someone said on another thread that the way the tendering or the contract is paid for RRB's has changed. So there are some bus operators who quite likely are thinking it's not worth going for any more

 

[Magdalia]

shortage of bus drivers is cyclical with the economy / labour market in general. There's people out there who hold a PCV licence but have a 'trade' as well, and will do whichever pays better (or whichever jobs are available in) at any time.

Shortage of workers, including bus drivers, is structural not cyclical. This mainly reflects changes in demography and, since COVID, lower workforce participation.

The government policy responses in the budget were on pensions and childcare. I doubt that either of those will increase the supply of bus drivers very much.

 

[Edsmith]

There is a particular shortage of part time drivers because the job is no longer worth doing if you've got to pay around £500 for the driver CPC and there are plenty of part time jobs available for home delivery drivers.

 

[Class 170101]

Probably particularly specific to Thameslink, I saw at least ten RR Coaches parked up (probably on a break but seemed a lot) in the last couple of hours.

 

[RJ]

NRE has a note about a lack of available buses to provide rail replacement services for Thameslink this weekend, leaving some periods uncovered. This appears to be becoming more frequent and I wonder whether engineering works are currently planned with bus availability in mind or, if not, will they have to be in future?

I travelled on Thameslink on the Luton route. Recognised some top agency rail replacement drivers driving on Metroline's behalf, the type who ensure their blinds are displayed correctly, that destination boards are on display, drive the right route and await departure time without needing to be supervised.

Some of the buses had been called in on an emergency basis, enabling drivers to be called in from far and wide to cover duties.

Looks like the rail replacement service was wound down from 7pm.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2023 ==

There is a particular shortage of part time drivers because the job is no longer worth doing if you've got to pay around £500 a year to do the driver CPC and there are plenty of part time jobs available for home delivery drivers.

Online CPC day courses cost £40-£75 and you only have to do 5 days of training every 5 years. My operation runs a rewards scheme where every shift worked accrues points which drivers can use to redeem for a paid day attending a CPC course - or redeem for cash if they've had training elsewhere. I've worked for outfits who refuse to pay for CPC training despite a driver probably earning enough for the company in one day to cover the cost of a day course. And others who will cover the cost of the course but expect the driver to attend for 7 hours without being paid. I don't think this is the best way to promote loyalty hence why I do it the way I do.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Is there some reason train drivers can't drive buses like?

 

[hexagon789]

Is there some reason train drivers can't drive buses like?

While I'm sure there could be a few train drivers with PCV licences, I doubt they are a significant majority - there are certainly train drivers who don't even hold an ordinary driver's licence for instance

 

[danielcanning]

What's the alternative? Stop all engineering works? Works are planned months if not years in advance, whilst unavailability of rail replacement transport is normally only communicated weeks in advance. One issue is the money that TOCs have been allowed to pay for this which is much more inflexible with the DfT having a tighter reign on things.

This has been going on for near 3 years now across the country.

If no replacement buses can be sourced then yes, engineering works should, and in fact must be postponed. It is not acceptable to have no alternative transport whatsoever and frankly, why should a fare paying passenger care what problems cancelling works cause to Network Rail?

 

[Fleetmaster]

Is it even true that engineering works have been sped up with the use of modern technology and advanced working methods, or was that all just tossed out when Covid hit? I definitely recall there being a big noise about precast pointwork speeding up renewal and modification, plug and play style.

 

[Snow1964]

There is also a complete mismatch in timing.
Many of the engineering works that require full line closures are planned months (even year of two) in advance, but seems the buses are only contracted a few weeks in advance, and the drivers sometimes only few days in advance.

I know a bus driver that has done rail replacement work, and he says tends to be asked few days in advance, not months ahead, which proves there is a structural logjam in the booking of staff in timely way.


It also doesn't help when rail replacement buses are doing 50 mile round trips, because stupidly long section is closed, even though all the work is on less than a mile of track. If double bus journey time need double the buses and drivers (often more because breaks become harder to schedule).
There needs to be some serious discussion about why trains cannot reverse nearer the rail works when struggling to get enough buses. Or running a single train shuttle to a nearer station (even if main service reverses elsewhere) to minimise the non rail part.

Before anyone says people cannot swap trains, I had to do that yesterday when XC decided they would do set swap on very crowded 1S45 Plymouth-Aberdeen at Derby. So happens when it suits operating Dept.

 

[The Planner]

If no replacement buses can be sourced then yes, engineering works should, and in fact must be postponed. It is not acceptable to have no alternative transport whatsoever and frankly, why should a fare paying passenger care what problems cancelling works cause to Network Rail?

The same passengers that will care when NR put on punative TSRs or even close the line as the work doesnt get done. At a base level, its a TOC problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2023 ==

There is also a complete mismatch in timing.
Many of the engineering works that require full line closures are planned months (even year of two) in advance, but seems the buses are only contracted a few weeks in advance, and the drivers sometimes only few days in advance.

I know a bus driver that has done rail replacement work, and he says tends to be asked few days in advance, not months ahead, which proves there is a structural logjam in the booking of staff in timely way.


It also doesn't help when rail replacement buses are doing 50 mile round trips, because stupidly long section is closed, even though all the work is on less than a mile of track. If double bus journey time need double the buses and drivers (often more because breaks become harder to schedule).
There needs to be some serious discussion about why trains cannot reverse nearer the rail works when struggling to get enough buses. Or running a single train shuttle to a nearer station (even if main service reverses elsewhere) to minimise the non rail part.

Before anyone says people cannot swap trains, I had to do that yesterday when XC decided they would do set swap on very crowded 1S45 Plymouth-Aberdeen at Derby. So happens when it suits operating Dept.

How do you know all the work is in a small section?

 

[Mwanesh]

One thing most people may not realise is most of the big bus groups had rail replacement crews. It was actually planned. I know Arriva at Luton, Stagecoach at Basingstoke had dedicated staff for rail replacement. As mentioned with the driver shortage it's not worth the hassle. The added paper work is so much hassle.

 

[Horizon22]

If no replacement buses can be sourced then yes, engineering works should, and in fact must be postponed. It is not acceptable to have no alternative transport whatsoever and frankly, why should a fare paying passenger care what problems cancelling works cause to Network Rail?

Because the problems it causes Network Rail ultimately cause problems for passengers if lines can't be maintained and there's more delays / cancellations or worse, the line being shut.

 

[43066]

If no replacement buses can be sourced then yes, engineering works should, and in fact must be postponed. It is not acceptable to have no alternative transport whatsoever and frankly, why should a fare paying passenger care what problems cancelling works cause to Network Rail?

A rather silly comment.

The works aren’t being done for the fun of it and, if they aren’t done (as above), there will doubtless be TSRs or even closure! The fare paying passengers wouldn’t like that.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If no replacement buses can be sourced then yes, engineering works should, and in fact must be postponed. It is not acceptable to have no alternative transport whatsoever and frankly, why should a fare paying passenger care what problems cancelling works cause to Network Rail?

Would you rather cause limited, easily distinguishable disruption for a day or two or cause thousands of hours of delay through TSRs?