Shotts line v Carstairs line: which is faster?

[adamedwards]

Today's Railways mentions the 100mph top speed on the Shotts line. So a question: For Inter City trains currently running via Carstairs, would they be faster via Shotts. I appreciate the local services would be a parting issue as would be missing Motherwell. But traded off against the very slow junction at Carstairs.

Edinburgh to Glasgow would Shotts be a faster route?

 

[d9009alycidon]

The only current comparison would be the 06:48 LNER service from Glasgow to Kings X which takes 58mins to Haymarket with a stop at Motherwell, then you have the 21:05 Voyager non stop via Shotts which takes 49 minutes to Haymarket, Shotts is about ten miles shorter so inevitably quicker. The Ayr to Edinburgh/North Berwick services take 69 minutes but that is with multiple stops. They also have a habit of getting delayed at Carstairs to allow WCML services to pass.

 

[Ianno87]

I have previously wondered whether the diversion of XC/LNER via Motherwell is worth it for the passenger demand that is picked up? I guess XC combined with Scotrail via Carstairs means that Motherwell-Edinburgh has roughly an hourly service as a result.... but is that worth the opportnity cost of (Say) faster Glasgow-Newcastle/York connectivity that might be possible via Shotts?

Motherwell might just be a bit of a hangover from the old ICEC Glasgow-King's Cross services, when the ECML had a relatively competitive journey time to the WCML, and could take advantage of the OLE via Carstairs.

 

[d9009alycidon]

I would agree that the standard of Glasgow to NE England could be improved but it is an area where the railway has very little competition, there are no air services from Glasgow to Newcastle and taking the car means either going via the A1 with it's blanket 50mph limit from the Border to Newcastle, or going via Carlisle and the atrocious A69. Even with the current service it is still faster than the alternatives

 

[dk1]

I would agree that the standard of Glasgow to NE England could be improved but it is an area where the railway has very little competition, there are no air services from Glasgow to Newcastle and taking the car means either going via the A1 with it's blanket 50mph limit from the Border to Newcastle, or going via Carlisle and the atrocious A69. Even with the current service it is still faster than the alternatives

Makes you wonder if extending the forthcoming hourly TPx Liverpool - Newcastle - Edinburgh through to Glasgow would be a better idea releasing the Voyager that's always West of Waverley but I suppose more 802s would be required & the likes of Derby, Sheffield & Wakefield would lose direct services.

 

[SeanG]

I would agree that the standard of Glasgow to NE England could be improved but it is an area where the railway has very little competition, there are no air services from Glasgow to Newcastle and taking the car means either going via the A1 with it's blanket 50mph limit from the Border to Newcastle, or going via Carlisle and the atrocious A69. Even with the current service it is still faster than the alternatives

The A1 isn't 50mph from Berwick to Newcastle. Its predominantly 60 with some 70mph dual carriageways. Admittedly, one can get stuck at slower speeds if its busy.

The quicker way from Newcastle to Edinburgh is the A696/A68 route.

Regardless, driving Newcastle to Glasgow I would always choose A69/A689/M6/A74(M)/M74. On a good day you can do A1 to M6 in 50mins to an hour so not too bad

 

[rg177]

The biggest issue with the A1 north of Morpeth is the single carriageway section between Mitford (where the A697 turns off) and Felton (south of Alnwick). Quite prone to accidents there too iirc.

 

[InOban]

What makes you think that the 21.05 XC runs via Shotts? On weekdays all services after the 19.16 are bustituted, while they finish off the platforms, lifts etc.

This train is essentially an ECS working and presumably has a clear run because there are fewer trains to cause conflict at junctions such as Haymarket.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

What makes you think that the 21.05 XC runs via Shotts? On weekdays all services after the 19.16 are bustituted, while they finish off the platforms, lifts etc.

This train is essentially an ECS working and presumably has a clear run because there are fewer trains to cause conflict at junctions such as Haymarket.

Doesn’t the 2105 ex Glasgow run round the Sub in Edinburgh? Calls at Motherwell anyway so can’t go via Shotts.

 

[route101]

Doesn’t the 2105 ex Glasgow run round the Sub in Edinburgh? Calls at Motherwell anyway so can’t go via Shotts.

Can still go via Shotts and call at Motherwell if via Hamilton Circle . Had it the other way on XC . Dont think it happens anymore.

 

[route101]

Always thought the Motherwell calls on XC have been getting more popular . Had it standing on a Voyager .

Id thought maybe a 2nd fast service via Shotts would be a good idea

 

[InOban]

Doesn’t the 2105 ex Glasgow run round the Sub in Edinburgh? Calls at Motherwell anyway so can’t go via Shotts.

The 21.05 doesn't call at Motherwell, that's why a poster thought it ran via Shotts. However it does call at Haymarket, so it can't be using the Sub.

 

[Glenn1969]

Tonight it did call at Motherwell, dep 2128, didn't call at Haymarket and ran via Carstairs and Kirknewton acc to RTT

 

[InOban]

I was going by the published timetable! Silly me.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

XC services are very popular at Motherwell. Not only are they faster than the irregular ScotRail services to Edinburgh, but to both Glasgow and Edinburgh their fares are lower (if walk on XC only tickets are used). Motherwell only a couple of years ago was noted by a survey (from one of the major banks) to be the fastest growing Edinburgh commuter town, so removing its links probably wouldn’t be wise, and replacing them with ScotRail services (assuming XC continued running via Shotts) would only serve to place even more capacity problems on Haymarket to Waverley.

Also, I’ve got the new Shotts layout open in front of me (at least the end controlled by WSSC), and at no point do I see a 100mph section. It varies from 60-80mph for most of its length. Add to that it’s very hilly nature which would slow a Diesel Voyager, and any time savings would be minimal.

Slotting any express service into that line would be a nightmare. The current limited stop is often right on the tail of the stopper by the time it gets to Uddingston as there is nowhere to loop a delayed service. As a resident of the eastern end of Motherwell, I’d much rather see the current limited stop service replaced with one that calls at all the busier stations (essentially all the stops, excepting maybe Hartwood, Addiewell and Briech).

XC services should see some improvement from the planned realignment at Carstairs which will remove the horrendous 15mph restriction there.

 

[d9009alycidon]

The A1 isn't 50mph from Berwick to Newcastle. Its predominantly 60 with some 70mph dual carriageways. Admittedly, one can get stuck at slower speeds if its busy.

The quicker way from Newcastle to Edinburgh is the A696/A68 route.

Regardless, driving Newcastle to Glasgow I would always choose A69/A689/M6/A74(M)/M74. On a good day you can do A1 to M6 in 50mins to an hour so not too bad

They must have relaxed the A1 restrictions since the last time I was down that way (mid 1990s), it was known as the road where you could lose your license in one trip due tot he speed restrictions and speed cameras, I stand by my comments on the A69, a truly dreadful road for the 21st century. if I am travelling to somewhere like Durham I will take the long way round and go on south to the A66 at Scotch Corner then over to Penrith.

What makes you think that the 21.05 XC runs via Shotts? On weekdays all services after the 19.16 are bustituted, while they finish off the platforms, lifts etc.

This train is essentially an ECS working and presumably has a clear run because there are fewer trains to cause conflict at junctions such as Haymarket.

The train I am referring to is the 1Y99 SO Glasgow Central to Edinburgh, shown on RTT as a full service train running directly from Central to Edinburgh via Shotts, no Motherwell stop or round the sub, purely used as an example of what a direct train can achieve.

 

[DarloRich]

I would agree that the standard of Glasgow to NE England could be improved but it is an area where the railway has very little competition, there are no air services from Glasgow to Newcastle and taking the car means either going via the A1 with it's blanket 50mph limit from the Border to Newcastle, or going via Carlisle and the atrocious A69. Even with the current service it is still faster than the alternatives

Surely the point is to offer a Glasgow > Edinburgh service with a pick up at Motherwell. On the rare occasions i have used an early train out of Glasgow they pick up a decent number at Motherwell. Is it worth dropping those people?