Should a Heathrow Airport Loop be part of HS2

[YourMum666]

Should there be a Heathrow - Bham rail link constructed for Hs2, it would run as a loop (Euston - OOC - A remodelled Heathrow Central - Join back with HS2). Is this practical and cost efficient and is it justifiable

 

[FlyingPotato]

Probably not as you could just have Heathrow express stop at ooc and people can change there instead

 

[jfollows]

Yes, Heathrow should always have been part of HS2, but it's not going to happen now, and the people who run flights from Heathrow to other UK airports such as Manchester are probably very happy about it.
It would be perfect for me to get to Heathrow, but I'll tolerate changing at Old Oak Common if I have to.

 

[stuu]

No

 

[zwk500]

Should there be a Heathrow - Bham rail link constructed for Hs2, it would run as a loop (Euston - OOC - A remodelled Heathrow Central - Join back with HS2). Is this practical and cost efficient and is it justifiable

It was part of the initial plans and found to fail all three tests. With the existing subterranean infrastructure at Heathrow it would have been a vastly expensive exercise with many sub-optimal design compromises even if a legally compliant route (for evacuation) could have been found.

 

[swt_passenger]

Should there be a Heathrow - Bham rail link constructed for Hs2, it would run as a loop (Euston - OOC - A remodelled Heathrow Central - Join back with HS2). Is this practical and cost efficient and is it justifiable

No. It was investigated and ruled out. There was not enough demand and obvious time penalties compared to direct trains. It’s been discussed numerous times before.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

It was part of the initial plans and found to fail all three tests. With the existing subterranean infrastructure at Heathrow it would have been a vastly expensive exercise with many sub-optimal design compromises even if a legally compliant route (for evacuation) could have been found.

Stop being so grown up

As mentioned, the need for new tunnellig ultimately kills the idea everytime, especially when considering the need to either go under or round several suburbs.

As also mentioned OOC provides enough of an interchange, although it may well kill the BA Shuttle longer term, despite it already being a shadow of it's former self

 

[zwk500]

Stop being so grown up

As mentioned, the need for new tunnellig ultimately kills the idea everytime, especially when considering the need to either go under or round several suburbs.

As also mentioned OOC provides enough of an interchange, although it may well kill the BA Shuttle longer term, despite it already being a shadow of it's former self

If you want my free-thinking idea it involves building a 4-runway airport to the North of London to avoid overflying, but connected to the M1, M40, WCML, HS2 and Chiltern lines. Closure of Luton and Heathrow with the new London Cotswolds international having a big low-cost terminal alongside it's main int'l stuff.
It would also be funded by building 1 million houses on the former Heathrow and Luton sites, with associated business and retail development for several new 15-minute cities. I often have fun imagining the screech of pearls being clutched by the great and good of Oxon & Bucks

 

[Bald Rick]

No, we looked at it, and there simply wasn’t enough traffic to justify it the (considerable) cost and additional time for London - Midlands / North passengers.

It would also be funded by building 1 million houses on the former Heathrow and Luton sites

If you doubled the typical maximum density of homes usually found in the densest parts of London, you might get 400,000 homes on Heathrow, and a quarter of that on Luton. But that would be without any other facilities - schools, healthcare, retail, or anywhere else where people might work.

 

[zwk500]

If you doubled the typical maximum density of homes usually found in the densest parts of London, you might get 400,000 homes on Heathrow, and a quarter of that on Luton. But that would be without any other facilities - schools, healthcare, retail, or anywhere else where people might work.

I think there may be bigger problems trying to find a site for 4 runways in the Cotswolds before you even start thinking about what you might do with Heathrow...

 

[MPW]

If you want my free-thinking idea it involves building a 4-runway airport to the North of London to avoid overflying, but connected to the M1, M40, WCML, HS2 and Chiltern lines. Closure of Luton and Heathrow with the new London Cotswolds international having a big low-cost terminal alongside it's main int'l stuff.
It would also be funded by building 1 million houses on the former Heathrow and Luton sites, with associated business and retail development for several new 15-minute cities. I often have fun imagining the screech of pearls being clutched by the great and good of Oxon & Bucks

This kind of airport would be best served by an underground station below the terminals. So it could just go above the under-construction Chiltern hs2 tunnel

 

[RobShipway]

If you want my free-thinking idea it involves building a 4-runway airport to the North of London to avoid overflying, but connected to the M1, M40, WCML, HS2 and Chiltern lines. Closure of Luton and Heathrow with the new London Cotswolds international having a big low-cost terminal alongside it's main int'l stuff.
It would also be funded by building 1 million houses on the former Heathrow and Luton sites, with associated business and retail development for several new 15-minute cities. I often have fun imagining the screech of pearls being clutched by the great and good of Oxon & Bucks

I know it may have been done as a joke, but I cannot see London Cotswold airport happening, as there is enough complaints about where HS2 is being built and how it is ruining the countryside.

This kind of airport would be best served by an underground station below the terminals. So it could just go above the under-construction Chiltern hs2 tunnel

I really doubt that people would be willing to travel on London Underground that far out to get to an airport! It takes a class 8xx about an hour and half to get from say Moreton-In-Marsh to London Paddington, how long would it take an Underground train from London do you think?

 

[zwk500]

I know it may have been done as a joke, but I cannot see London Cotswold airport happening, as there is enough complaints about where HS2 is being built and how it is ruining the countryside.

I'm clearly going to have to make it clear when I'm being more than slightly sarcastic, although it does raise an interesting question about the nature of some proposals we get on here.

I really doubt that people would be willing to travel on London Underground that far out to get to an airport! It takes a class 8xx about an hour and half to get from say Moreton-In-Marsh to London Paddington, how long would it take an Underground train from London do you think?

underground, not Underground. It would be a mainline station but just built in a massive concrete box/trench underneath the airport, as commonly seen at many (most?) major European airports including Heathrow.

 

[D365]

I'm clearly going to have to make it clear when I'm being more than slightly sarcastic, although it does raise an interesting question about the nature of some proposals we get on here.

It's just the nature of this particular subforum.

 

[Chester1]

If you doubled the typical maximum density of homes usually found in the densest parts of London, you might get 400,000 homes on Heathrow, and a quarter of that on Luton. But that would be without any other facilities - schools, healthcare, retail, or anywhere else where people might work.

I think I read around the time of "Boris Island" proposals that Heathrow and the land currently reserved for third runway could support a new borough of 200,000 homes.

The idea we should spend billions to connect Heathrow with HS2 comes from a very London centric world view. Manchester has flights to USA, Canada, Caribbean, multiple African countries, Beijing, Hong Kong, Singapore and all of the gulf hub airports. Birmingham Airport is heading that way too.

 

[Matt P]

Given all the pruning that is going on with HS2 I'd have to say no. Had this been proposed as part of the final plans for Phase 1, then in all likelihood it'd have been already been subjected to government secateurs and either scrapped entirely of deferred to some distant date in future.

I'd assume the reason why Birmingham still has an airport HS2 station (at time of writing!!) and Manchester was intended to and may still get one is to provide more airport capacity for London and the South East without having to make any difficult extra runway decisions rather than as an alternative for people flying into Heathrow and using BA's shuttle to fly to Manchester.

 

[zwk500]

I'd assume the reason why Birmingham still has an airport HS2 station (at time of writing!!) and Manchester was intended to and may still get one is to provide more airport capacity for London and the South East without having to make any difficult extra runway decisions rather than as an alternative for people flying into Heathrow and using BA's shuttle to fly to Manchester.

Birmingham gets it's station because it's part of the Birmingham Interchange complex, including the NEC, ability to function as a P&R site, and offering greater connections in and out of HS2 that allow passengers to avoid changing at New Street (to many passenger's relief no doubt). They've also dug most of the holes for Birmingham Interchange now so it's going to be built.
The Airport connections on HS2 are not for people going Airport-to-Airport, nor even really for people flying in to then go to a different town centre (although it's not impossible that flying into Manchester/Birmingham and then HS2 to Euston is quicker and cheaper overall than Heathrow). Rather the Airports are natural transport hubs for the surrounding area, with good links to the surrounding suburbs as well as good alternatives for city centre distribution so HS2 is tapping into that market. Lots of Cheshire/West Lancs people will be tempted by the faster trains and plentiful parking, and similarly with East Birmingham and Trent Valley towns. Birmingham Interchange is a quick motorway trip away and HS2 offers much quicker journeys to London.

 

[MarkyT]

Perhaps HS2 will provide people from the usual catchments of all three major airports served with more reasonable options for flights to use, so for example someone from the southeast may be able to pick up a more compelling price level/departure slot for a particular journey from Birmingham or Manchester airport that they might not have considered otherwise without the fast train journey to get there. This could also help airlines fill long-haul seats that might otherwise not be sold, which, for a flight that is going to take off anyway, could be considered an environmental as well as a commercial benefit for them.

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps HS2 will provide people from the usual catchments of all three major airports served with more reasonable options for flights to use, so for example someone from the southeast may be able to pick up a more compelling price level/departure slot for a particular journey from Birmingham or Manchester airport that they might not have considered otherwise without the fast train journey to get there. This could also help airlines fill long-haul seats that might otherwise not be sold, which, for a flight that is going to take off anyway, could be considered an environmental as well as a commercial benefit for them.

I doubt people will look much further than their normal airport unless airlines start aggressively pursuing codeshare agreements with the HS2 operator. The Airports are simply convenient hubs for people heading into a different city centre, they are going to have a negligible impact on air traveller patterns, I fear.

 

[Chester1]

I doubt people will look much further than their normal airport unless airlines start aggressively pursuing codeshare agreements with the HS2 operator. The Airports are simply convenient hubs for people heading into a different city centre, they are going to have a negligible impact on air traveller patterns, I fear.

That is exactly what they are designed to be. Both Manchester and Birmingham HS2 airport stations are likely (but not definitely) going to have tram extensions at some point. Altrincham area will be well connected to the station by buses. The car parks will be massive too.

I doubt HS2 interlining will take off (pun intended). Not many people are going to travel via train from London to Birmingham or Manchester Airports. A Heathrow link would have more up take but it would be completing against direct flights from Manchester and Birmingham. Direct long haul flights took a hit during the pandemic but the aviation market has been progressively moving in that direction for 20s years and still is. The effect of the introduction of A321 XLR on hub airports could be similar to the introduction of the 787. It should open up more medium haul routes for airports like Manchester and Birmingham. The only way to really encourage HS2 - plane tickets would be to limit capacity at the London airports causing a spillover. Building on land reserved for Heathrow third runway, building on all of London City Airport and London Southend Airport and banning additional runways at Gatwick, Stansted and Luton might do that.