Should buses be operated by private operators or in public hands?

[TheGrandWazoo]

Because, I guess, First get less than £18.90 per multi-operator ticket?

Oh absolutely! That much is evident.

Such tickets are advertised at stops but with the sort of dynamic marketing prowess that you'd expect of a public body.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With my robber baron hat on I would completely agree with you - carve up the areas that are profitable between a few of us, (giving us monopolies and integrated fare structures), gang up on any newcomers to the High Street [not letting them into our cartel] before going for Amazon, run rings round the rules regarding sharp practices as they would be fairly blunt because one size won't fit all. Sounds ideal. Sounds like high fares and poor service could get some short term profits before tackling Amazon.

But that is demonstrably not what happens. Most bus operations in the UK are monopolies - only a very small number of local bus corridors in the UK (probably single figures, maybe even fewer than 5 depending on how you work it out) have genuine, effective on-road competition. And yet fares aren't high, and service isn't generally unduly poor in those situations - indeed, some of the bus companies that are considered excellent have a near monopoly over their routes.

Stagecoach and First in Manchester, for example, have, other than the ticketing and Oxford/Wilmslow Road, basically already done what you suggest. And as a result, anyone making a cross Manchester journey pays over the odds.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Making a journey involving two different companies is, for an individual bus company, a different proposition to tickets which are interavailable on competing services. A problem being that your customers will not understand the difference! The only solutions acceptable to bus operators are likely to be called collusion and not acceptable to the competition authorities!

I've highlighted in bold something I mentioned further up the thread: that the cack-handed way provincial privatisation occurred means that any attempt to collaborate would look like collusion or a cartel.

I still don't understand how you reach the conclusion that cowboys would come crawling out of the woodwork if there was integrated ticketing. West Yorkshire, which has always had strong integrated ticketing, is a beacon of light with the all-operator WY DaySaver costing as little as £5.50 on a smartcard for one day and £8.50 for the whole weekend. Yet the only independents you see operating are on tenders. This is despite the ticket acting as a brake on operator-specific fares: the WY FirstDay is only 30p cheaper than the WY DaySaver and the Bradford FirstDay is only 80p cheaper. Arriva's day ticket is only 60p cheaper than the any-operator alternative.

As an aside, that weekender ticket is a great example of how good public-sector public transport bodies can develop really good and useful products and get leisure travellers out on spare capacity. The weekender is valid from 6pm Friday and is both well promoted and extremely good value. Compare a ticket like that with First, who without any sense of shame charge £3.60 for a single ticket from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about three miles.

With my robber baron hat on I would completely agree with you - carve up the areas that are profitable between a few of us, (giving us monopolies and integrated fare structures), gang up on any newcomers to the High Street [not letting them into our cartel] before going for Amazon, run rings round the rules regarding sharp practices as they would be fairly blunt because one size won't fit all. Sounds ideal. Sounds like high fares and poor service could get some short term profits before tackling Amazon. Maybe enough so I can retire first.

In reality this happened a long time ago, though. Most bus operators now exist in their own little bubbles, with little or no on-road competition. In areas with multiple operators, they all have patches. In Greater Manchester Stagecoach, Rotala, Transdev, (the remains of) First and Go have their own little kingdoms, and there is little or no interaction between the different patches. It's the same in West Yorkshire- Arriva/Yorkshire Tiger, First and Transdev all have their own little patches. And in Tyne and Wear between Go, Stagecoach and Arriva. And in Merseyside. And in Nottingham. And in Glasgow. You get my drift.

And the vast majority of areas will only have one dominant operator- Go in Brighton, Isle of Wight, Bournemouth/Poole. Arriva in south-west Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire. National Express in Birmingham and Coventry. Lothian in Edinburgh.

As I said, the real competitor is the private car and, sometimes, taxis. Monopoly operators could charge stupid money for a ticket but nobody would travel with them (see First Potteries for more information).

On-road competition has largely been a fallacy for 20 years or more. The "bus wars" in recent times- Preston, Manchester, Nottingham- are more notable for how unusual they were.

Here I will give a special mention to Arriva and Go, who after a succession of secret handshakes now only really directly compete on the Coast Road corridor (but not exactly- Arriva and Go take different routes) and, at a stretch, along the A69 to Hexham.

As a comparison, the First weekly ticket in Bristol £18.90. The multi operator Bristol Rider ticket is £20.00 but then again, it's not well publicised (especially by First!)

Agreed, it's certainly not across the board that the any-operator ticket is eye-wateringly expensive. It isn't in West Yorkshire either, as above. Perhaps it's a north east thing. If you live in Teesside and only want a one-day any-operator ticket, your only choice is the Explorer North East at £10.90. A phenomenally good value ticket for bus bashing, but a bit pricey if you're only going from Ingleby Barwick to Billingham.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agreed, it's certainly not across the board that the any-operator ticket is eye-wateringly expensive. It isn't in West Yorkshire either, as above. Perhaps it's a north east thing. If you live in Teesside and only want a one-day any-operator ticket, your only choice is the Explorer North East at £10.90. A phenomenally good value ticket for bus bashing, but a bit pricey if you're only going from Ingleby Barwick to Billingham.

The Teesside Tripper has been around since the early 1980s and allows you to bash away in the Ingleby Barwick and Billingham (and indeed Stockton and Middlesbrough) on Arriva and Stagecoach vehicles for £4.60 a day.

 

[RT4038]

But that is demonstrably not what happens. Most bus operations in the UK are monopolies - only a very small number of local bus corridors in the UK (probably single figures, maybe even fewer than 5 depending on how you work it out) have genuine, effective on-road competition. And yet fares aren't high, and service isn't generally unduly poor in those situations - indeed, some of the bus companies that are considered excellent have a near monopoly over their routes.

Stagecoach and First in Manchester, for example, have, other than the ticketing and Oxford/Wilmslow Road, basically already done what you suggest. And as a result, anyone making a cross Manchester journey pays over the odds.

You are right, but how much is the fear of competition keeping these companies in line. If collusion between existing operators is permitted, the likelihood of any successful new competition will be even less, and may stifle innovation even amongst the incumbents. As you point out, in some areas/ with some companies this will make not one iota of difference. With others, it may not be so good. It seems unlikely to me that such collusion will be allowable in the future, without such bureaucracy that will be stifling.

I've highlighted in bold something I mentioned further up the thread: that the cack-handed way provincial privatisation occurred means that any attempt to collaborate would look like collusion or a cartel.

I still don't understand how you reach the conclusion that cowboys would come crawling out of the woodwork if there was integrated ticketing. West Yorkshire, which has always had strong integrated ticketing, is a beacon of light with the all-operator WY DaySaver costing as little as £5.50 on a smartcard for one day and £8.50 for the whole weekend. Yet the only independents you see operating are on tenders. This is despite the ticket acting as a brake on operator-specific fares: the WY FirstDay is only 30p cheaper than the WY DaySaver and the Bradford FirstDay is only 80p cheaper. Arriva's day ticket is only 60p cheaper than the any-operator alternative.

As an aside, that weekender ticket is a great example of how good public-sector public transport bodies can develop really good and useful products and get leisure travellers out on spare capacity. The weekender is valid from 6pm Friday and is both well promoted and extremely good value. Compare a ticket like that with First, who without any sense of shame charge £3.60 for a single ticket from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about three miles.



In reality this happened a long time ago, though. Most bus operators now exist in their own little bubbles, with little or no on-road competition. In areas with multiple operators, they all have patches. In Greater Manchester Stagecoach, Rotala, Transdev, (the remains of) First and Go have their own little kingdoms, and there is little or no interaction between the different patches. It's the same in West Yorkshire- Arriva/Yorkshire Tiger, First and Transdev all have their own little patches. And in Tyne and Wear between Go, Stagecoach and Arriva. And in Merseyside. And in Nottingham. And in Glasgow. You get my drift.

And the vast majority of areas will only have one dominant operator- Go in Brighton, Isle of Wight, Bournemouth/Poole. Arriva in south-west Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire. National Express in Birmingham and Coventry. Lothian in Edinburgh.

As I said, the real competitor is the private car and, sometimes, taxis. Monopoly operators could charge stupid money for a ticket but nobody would travel with them (see First Potteries for more information).

On-road competition has largely been a fallacy for 20 years or more. The "bus wars" in recent times- Preston, Manchester, Nottingham- are more notable for how unusual they were.

Here I will give a special mention to Arriva and Go, who after a succession of secret handshakes now only really directly compete on the Coast Road corridor (but not exactly- Arriva and Go take different routes) and, at a stretch, along the A69 to Hexham.



Agreed, it's certainly not across the board that the any-operator ticket is eye-wateringly expensive. It isn't in West Yorkshire either, as above. Perhaps it's a north east thing. If you live in Teesside and only want a one-day any-operator ticket, your only choice is the Explorer North East at £10.90. A phenomenally good value ticket for bus bashing, but a bit pricey if you're only going from Ingleby Barwick to Billingham.

I assume in West Yorkshire that those passengers who want/need an integrated ticket buy one, and those only travelling with one operator 'in their own bubble' buy a (cheaper) operator specific ticket. I really do not see what the problem is with this situation. In practice there are still plenty of operator specific tickets sold, as it is in the operators interest to do so, and that will mean plenty of passengers will 'stand back' and wait for their operator to arrive.

As I don't think there is anywhere in this country which is de-regulated and only integrated ticketing with no operator specific tickets, examples will have to be sought overseas, as I have already suggested. If there was plenty of available kerbside passengers, with integrated ticketing with no loyalty to a particular operator, competition by independents would soon start coming.

For every West Yorkshire or Newcastle, there is a Birmingham & Black Country, where independents abound but are effectively shut out of mainstream competing by the operator specific ticket products of the incumbent. And I suspect that this happens, possibly on a lesser scale, in West Yorkshire and Newcastle too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right, but how much is the fear of competition keeping these companies in line.

Not at all, I'd think, as there is no competition in most areas.

 

[RT4038]

Not at all, I'd think, as there is no competition in most areas.

But this is because the incumbent operators have 'got it right', by and large, and anyone contemplating competing would realise how difficult it will be to become established. Make no mistake though, there are numbers of operators who could, and would, take advantage if the incumbent takes their eye off the ball, or if the equilibrium was disturbed. There are plenty of examples of where this has happened, starting in King's Lynn. There is good reason why operators prioritise their own (single operator) return/day/weekly tickets.

Whilst I understand (and to a certain extent agree with) your sentiments of permitting collusion in order to give a better fare deal across the 'bubble boundaries', I can also quite understand why this could be seen as the slippery slope:
1. It raises the bar for any new entrant, as the incumbents can/would collude to disadvantage them. Those operators who haven't 'got it right' would be protected to a certain extent from new competition.
2. The collusion would, more than likely, stifle innovation across the 'bubble boundaries', exactly as it did with the agreements (which would now be totally illegal) between territorial operators in the 20s and 30s. i.e. Changing travel patterns across 'bubble boundaries' may not be catered for if one (or more) of the colluders demands through passengers change at the boundary.
3. Tendering authorities would be, rightfully, concerned that this collusion may reduce competition for tendered services, thereby increasing prices. I'll only tender for services in my bubble, if you only tender for services in yours.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Teesside Tripper has been around since the early 1980s

I didn't know about that- it isn't advertised as a multi-operator ticket on the Connect Tees Valley website, where I was looking. Sigh.

I assume in West Yorkshire that those passengers who want/need an integrated ticket buy one, and those only travelling with one operator 'in their own bubble' buy a (cheaper) operator specific ticket. I really do not see what the problem is with this situation. In practice there are still plenty of operator specific tickets sold, as it is in the operators interest to do so, and that will mean plenty of passengers will 'stand back' and wait for their operator to arrive.

In West Yorkshire the situation is agreeable and acceptable to everyone. My point isn't that it's unacceptable, it's that a sensibly-priced integrated ticket hasn't caused a bus war and clearly the operators are satisfied with the revenue generated.

In Tyne and Wear, on the other hand, the integrated ticket is eye-wateringly expensive.

There are plenty of examples of where this has happened, starting in King's Lynn.

Competition in Kings Lynn has more to do with retrenchment of the original incumbent, Norfolk Green coming in to fill the void, selling up to Stagecoach and then Stagecoach retrenching too.

There are examples where independents have come in due to poor incumbents. Reay's in Carlisle did for a while on the city network, using modern buses whilst Stagecoach were still using battered old Solos, but ultimately Carlisle couldn't support two operators once Stagecoach pulled their finger out. So Reay's stopped again.

Which is kind of my point- most bubbles can only support one main operator, and a specific route can only support a certain number of passengers. And the large national operators have significantly deeper pockets than independents. Put simply, an independent will run out of money first unless the incumbent doesn't really care and lets them have it.

My view isn't that competition should be banned, or that cartels are desirable. My view is that on-road competition is an irrelevance. It doesn't exist, most areas are a de facto monopoly, and hasn't existed for over 20 years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As an aside, that weekender ticket is a great example of how good public-sector public transport bodies can develop really good and useful products and get leisure travellers out on spare capacity. The weekender is valid from 6pm Friday and is both well promoted and extremely good value. Compare a ticket like that with First, who without any sense of shame charge £3.60 for a single ticket from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about three miles.

Sadly, we all know the reason why a single ticket is £3.60 and it's everything to do with ENCTS reimbursement that penalises the casual user.

That said, you do highlight a disparity in that the Halifax day ticket has a different boundary to the week ticket in that it takes in Queensbury for a day ticket but not for the week ticket which is perverse. Oh, that and the map declares it to be £10 and that it has risen to £12 in the 4+ years since the map was published!!

Public bodies DO create and broker some great deals but as I've said before, they are not well publicised in the main. That's partly a failing of public bodies and partly because of the vested interest in bus companies in wishing to retain revenue/protect market share by actively promoting their own tickets and benignly publicising other tickets where they don't retain the revenue.

I didn't know about that- it isn't advertised as a multi-operator ticket on the Connect Tees Valley website, where I was looking. Sigh.

TBF, it's only because I was a local (or near enough) and remembered it and then had a quick google. It isn't on the Connect Tees Valley site (the public body) but it is on the respective Arriva and Stagecoach sites https://www.stagecoachbus.com/regio...JSBrPCE0OwDxLW_rFJephembrWlPsYowTgPHgJApe4CPA


As I say, unless you happen to dredge something up from the memory banks, or you're Barry Doe, it's difficult to be aware of some of the tickets available but local authorities differ widely in their ability to communicate these things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My view is that on-road competition is an irrelevance. It doesn't exist, most areas are a de facto monopoly, and hasn't existed for over 20 years.

I would agree with that. I reckon there are fewer than 5 major corridors in the UK (Oxford/Wilmslow Road being the "big" one) where this is still happening on local bus services on an ongoing, long-term basis (rather than a short term occasional petty spat which usually goes away fairly quickly when Arrivafirstcoachahead flex their muscles and doesn't actually benefit anybody), and without UK North/Finglands/R Bullock it's decidedly less competitive on Oxford/Wilmslow Road than it was. It happens with coaches, but that market is very, very different.

Are there actually any others? Can anyone think of them? It seemed to die off in Liverpool when somewhat disreputable GTL was bought by rather better behaved Stagecoach.

 

[RT4038]

I would agree with that. I reckon there are fewer than 5 major corridors in the UK (Oxford/Wilmslow Road being the "big" one) where this is still happening on local bus services on an ongoing, long-term basis (rather than a short term occasional petty spat which usually goes away fairly quickly when Arrivafirstcoachahead flex their muscles and doesn't actually benefit anybody), and without UK North/Finglands/R Bullock it's decidedly less competitive on Oxford/Wilmslow Road than it was. It happens with coaches, but that market is very, very different.

Are there actually any others? Can anyone think of them? It seemed to die off in Liverpool when somewhat disreputable GTL was bought by rather better behaved Stagecoach.

You may well be right, but this is because Arrivafirstcoachaheadexpress have worked out how to keep it that way! It has not just happened by accident. There have been plenty of short term occasional spats. However, they will not be keen on changing any of the levers to keep it that way, such as universal integrated ticketing.
Which is the point I've been making all along.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As I say, unless you happen to dredge something up from the memory banks, or you're Barry Doe, it's difficult to be aware of some of the tickets available but local authorities differ widely in their ability to communicate these things.

Yep, and this is where I talk about the disconnect caused by the fact operators can't broker these deals. Everything gets left to the local authority to do, with the ongoing variable quality caused by variable money, talent and motivation.

West Yorkshire PTE largely get it right, and are better at it than the operators in their patch- Transdev excepted. It's why private vs public isn't easy to answer; for every Nexus there's a WY Metro, for every First there's a Transdev.

You may well be right, but this is because Arrivafirstcoachaheadexpress have worked out how to keep it that way! It has not just happened by accident.

I'd say regulation has played a huge role, actually. The financial barrier to entry is high. Gone are the days where you can buy a clapped out decker for peanuts off Ensign and run a predatory service. PSVAR and emissions regulations have seen to that. West Yorkshire, which largely has what I'd like to see across the country, doesn't have predatory overbussing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yep, and this is where I talk about the disconnect caused by the fact operators can't broker these deals. Everything gets left to the local authority to do, with the ongoing variable quality caused by variable money, talent and motivation.

West Yorkshire PTE largely get it right, and are better at it than the operators in their patch- Transdev excepted. It's why private vs public isn't easy to answer; for every Nexus there's a WY Metro, for every First there's a Transdev.

You're right.... I just don't know how we ensure that consistency of approach.

If I look at my native patch.... you have North Yorkshire CC, Darlington unitary (who don't actually support anything other than administering s106 funds IIRC), the Teesside unitaries (of whom Stockton and Middlesbrough do a bit, R&C did little but are slightly better than they were, and Hartlepool who do nothing) and Durham CC (who are fairly ok). I don't know if I trust them with much!!

I know of a number of bus company managers who would like to have a better relationship with LAs but they (the LA) just aren't interested.

 

[Robertj21a]

I would agree with that. I reckon there are fewer than 5 major corridors in the UK (Oxford/Wilmslow Road being the "big" one) where this is still happening on local bus services on an ongoing, long-term basis (rather than a short term occasional petty spat which usually goes away fairly quickly when Arrivafirstcoachahead flex their muscles and doesn't actually benefit anybody), and without UK North/Finglands/R Bullock it's decidedly less competitive on Oxford/Wilmslow Road than it was. It happens with coaches, but that market is very, very different.

Are there actually any others? Can anyone think of them? It seemed to die off in Liverpool when somewhat disreputable GTL was bought by rather better behaved Stagecoach.

When you say are there any others, I thought you'd only mentioned one of the five?

 

[Tetchytyke]

You're right.... I just don't know how we ensure that consistency of approach.

I'm not sure either.

The issue with public ownership is the politicians, who are by their nature short-termist and aggrandising. I see the rumours that Middlesbrough Council want to flatten the bus station and build a "media village" just won't go away, and Ben Houchen bounces from toy to toy like a toddler with ADHD.

But the issue with private ownership is there's no leverage to create improvement if the incumbent is happy to rest on their laurels, like Arriva are in Teesside.

 

[madannie77]

There are examples where independents have come in due to poor incumbents. Reay's in Carlisle did for a while on the city network, using modern buses whilst Stagecoach were still using battered old Solos, but ultimately Carlisle couldn't support two operators once Stagecoach pulled their finger out. So Reay's stopped again.

When Reays began their commercial operation in Carlisle in October 2010 almost all of Stagecoach's city services were operated by 05 plate Darts kept in good condition supplemented by a few older Darts and on an occasional basis by AD Enviro 300s and Volvo B10Ms and Olympians. Carlisle had very few Optare Solos at that time, which were only likely to turn up on one low frequency service in the city and some of the more rural services.

Reays competitive services started with 9 Plaxton Primos (8 brand new & 1 second-hand) and they built up a collection of new AD Enviro 200s and MCV Evolution bodied VDLs with some second hand Darts as well. All very smarty turned out. Towards the end standards slipped a bit: my local route was usually allocated two Primos, a Solo and an Olympian in the last few weeks of operation.

I really don't think that the Stagecoach operation in Carlisle in 2010 could be described as poor. During the two and a half years of competition with Reays Stagecoach did very little to change their operation apart from employing a couple of "inspectors" in the city centre to regulate the service when disruption occurred. There were no significant changes to the timetables over this period, although some fares (notably day, weekly and monthly tickets) were reduced.

Regardless of whether Stagecoach was good or poor, there was never going to be enough trade in Carlisle for two operators, which is clearly the same as in many towns and cities of similar size all over the country. It was good while it lasted as fares were reduced and there were more buses to choose from, but the inevitable outcome was that Reays withdrew all of their competing services (apart from one city service which did not really duplicate any Stagecoach route). They tried again on a much smaller scale in 2014 and from late 2015 to early 2017, but the outcome was the same.

Perhaps if the incumbent operator had been one of the other large bus groups Reays might have had more chance, but I don't think they were ever going to beat Stagecoach.