Should Didcot to Oxford be electrified to release Turbos for work elsewhere?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't think the thread title is great, the benefits of electrifying the Didcot to Oxford line are far greater than just releasing a few turbos. I think most people are in the general agreement that it should happen asap (or perhaps once the works at Oxford are done, although imo since theyre gonna have to shut the line for those works anyway that's the ideal time to do the work) but sadly we don't get to make the decisions

Noting the recent line closure owing to the land instability in that area that has now been corrected, would thought have to be given to the matter of the entire line area in question that would need long-term stability of electrical infrastructure?

 

[Benjwri]

If it was 25 units they certainly would.

And how would electrifying Didcot to Oxford release 25 units?

 

[The Planner]

And how would electrifying Didcot to Oxford release 25 units?

I didnt say it would, it was in response that electrification schemes consider the amount of units released.

 

[30907]

I've made it clear that I know that, but plenty of people board in the centre where its just a 10 minute walk to the station.

Maybe because Megabus doesn't call anywhere else, unlike the Tube?

Oxford-London has been a significant express coach route for decades, and since the M40 was built is highly competitive on generalised journey time (time and frequency combined), even end to end, owing to the significantly shorter route and the inconvenient location of Paddington. The frequency speaks for itself - I make it 3 Megabus and 4 Tube per hour.

It is, however, very unusual in not primarily competing on price.

 

[mangyiscute]

Maybe because Megabus doesn't call anywhere else, unlike the Tube?

Oxford-London has been a significant express coach route for decades, and since the M40 was built is highly competitive on generalised journey time (time and frequency combined), even end to end, owing to the significantly shorter route and the inconvenient location of Paddington. The frequency speaks for itself - I make it 3 Megabus and 4 Tube per hour.

It is, however, very unusual in not primarily competing on price.

I'm pretty sure the Megabus service you're talking of is the same as the Oxford Tube - its the megabus service called the M40X but its actually just another place they sell Tube tickets. There definitely aren't megabus and oxford tube coaches both doing the same journey (considering they're both stagecoach)

 

[Benjwri]

I didnt say it would, it was in response that electrification schemes consider the amount of units released.

The phrasing implied there was a scheme that would release 25. You’d need to electrify all of the branch lines, Oxford to Didcot, Reading to Basingstoke, Newbury to Bedwyn and Reading to Gatwick somehow for that, which would be so expensive it would come out not worth it anyways.

 

[WAO]

Wiring to Oxford would do more than release the shuttling Turbo's; it would also release the terminating bi-modes, which are very expensive machines for a suburban service. Added to this is the saving in diesel miles and the sparks effect of greater capacity and quality of service, etc etc.

One should also add the benefit to the Provincial services of the great increase in service quality diesel networkers (aka Turbo's) would bring.

WAO

 

[TheWalrus]

Exactly most of the passengers that don’t get on in Oxford Bus station get on at Thornhill Park and Ride.

Different market serving different locations. Would fares be as cheap and would the journey time of someone from say east Oxford getting to the station and then getting to Paddington as it would to Victoria or west London?

Because for years the train service was utterly appalling and rather expensive. Old habits die hard, but there has certainly been a reduction in the coach service as the rail service has improved with both electrification to Didcot and the added Chiltern service, with the Oxford Bus Company withdrawing theirs entirely, and I recall the Tube isn't as frequent as it once was.

What about the fact that the Tube goes right past Brookes University Campus in Headington?

 

[jimm]

And XC...

IIRC Oxford electrification is waiting for the station rebuild to be complete.

For the umpteenth time, no it is not.

The current track layout (along with rebuilding of the stabling sidings to the north of the station) was designed in conjunction with the GWML electrification project - and allowed for electrification of any subsequent changes to the station as easy add-ons, be that a platform 5 at the west side, or a rebuild with the current main station building removed and platform 2 (and even potentially platform 1*) being turned into through platforms.

*The artist's impressions and descriptions of a projected future new station were all a bit vague about what might happen at the city side of the station, so bays and/or a through platform can be assumed to be options to be considered if the money for a shiny new building is ever found.

Split the Banbury and give the Oxford Banbury portion to Chiltern. You can service group your way out of these issues.

Always assuming Chiltern actually has rolling stock available to operate it... and GWR Turbos' 90mph top speed is helpful in keeping out of the way of all the other things running between Oxford and Banbury.

The uncertainly over whats happening with a total rebuild is also another reason electrification can’t happen, until it’s decided they could do electrification then have to tear it all down again and mobilise the contractors to put it back up.

See above. Demolition contractors could probably manage to do their work in the station area without needing overhead wires to be removed, if they were ever installed ahead of a rebuild.

 

[Energy]

The current track layout (along with rebuilding of the stabling sidings to the north of the station) was designed in conjunction with the GWML electrification project - and allowed for electrification of any subsequent changes to the station as easy add-ons, be that a platform 5 at the west side, or a rebuild with the current main station building removed and platform 2 (and even potentially platform 1*) being turned into through platforms.

Not sure why my mind had the track layout change and resignalling as part of the station rebuild, hadn't realised that it had been done years ago.

 

[mangyiscute]

why are the gwr turbos faster than chilterns? could the chiltern ones be upgraded sometime in the forseeable future? I'd imagine it would help them improve the service having the rolling stock running at similar speeds

 

[Energy]

why are the gwr turbos faster than chilterns? could the chiltern ones be upgraded sometime in the forseeable future? I'd imagine it would help them improve the service having the rolling stock running at similar speeds

The Chiltern ones are limited to 75mph, they have a tripcock mounted where GWR have mounted a yaw dampener. The tripcock could probably be moved should they need to be upgraded.

 

[Mikey C]

The Chiltern ones are limited to 75mph, they have a tripcock mounted where GWR have mounted a yaw dampener. The tripcock could probably be moved should they need to be upgraded.

Aren't they also geared differently, so that the Chiltern ones accelerate more quickly. They have the same amount of power

 

[12LDA28C]

why are the gwr turbos faster than chilterns? could the chiltern ones be upgraded sometime in the forseeable future?

Because that's how they were built. Why would Chiltern (or Angel Trains) spend money on upgrading the 165s when the fleet is due to be replaced?

 

[800301]

Wonder if there is any spare HS2 money to get this completed now, as much as I can’t see it being likely

 

[Snow1964]

Wonder if there is any spare HS2 money to get this completed now, as much as I can’t see it being likely

Probably deemed too near London, its about 55 miles

They did find couple of schemes bit further away (Ely which is about 80 miles away, Chippenham-Bristol electrification, nearest is about 95 miles, some road schemes on south coast etc).

But I suspect the list was put together very fast from schemes previously considered and maybe just got missed or forgotten about or they had enough to fill list

 

[12LDA28C]

Wonder if there is any spare HS2 money to get this completed now, as much as I can’t see it being likely

The reason why it hasn't been done already is the planned upgrade to Oxford station including Platform 5 which has only just been commenced. The electrification project was delayed/postponed until the station and associated work has been completed, or at least that was the official reason given for the delay as I understand it.

 

[snowball]

The reason why it hasn't been done already is the planned upgrade to Oxford station including Platform 5 which has only just been commenced. The electrification project was delayed/postponed until the station and associated work has been completed, or at least that was the official reason given for the delay as I understand it.

I keep seeing claims to this effect but I've never seen it in any official document.

 

[anthony263]

I know gwr etc were pushing for more GWML electrification especially Acton Wells jct to Willesden Jct so gwr services could terminate at Ealing Broadway

 

[swt_passenger]

I know gwr etc were pushing for more GWML electrification especially Acton Wells jct to Willesden Jct so gwr services could terminate at Ealing Broadway

I don’t think you’ve explained that right. GWR services can already terminate at Ealing Broadway. The additional wiring would allow for EMU diversions elsewhere, eg to Euston, which they believe is preferable while the route is closed at Old Oak Common.

 

[Mag_seven]

The reason why it hasn't been done already is the planned upgrade to Oxford station including Platform 5 which has only just been commenced. The electrification project was delayed/postponed until the station and associated work has been completed, or at least that was the official reason given for the delay as I understand it.

I'm sure "waiting for Oxford remodelling" was used as an excuse as well. The fact is it should have been done years ago as part of GWEP but it was "paused" along with Chippenham - Bristol and no one seems to know if will ever happen!

 

[class ep-09]

I know gwr etc were pushing for more GWML electrification especially Acton Wells jct to Willesden Jct so gwr services could terminate at Ealing Broadway

I am not sure what Acton Wells to Willesden Jn electrification, has to do with Ealing Broadway .

Trains did indeed terminate at Ealing Broadway few years back , and shunted from Up Relieve / Up Main to Dn Relieve / Dn Main via point-work at Acton West .

To do so , trains do not get near Acton Wells or Willesden Jn ( nor these two are on GWR mainline ).

Perhaps , you are thinking about GWR services terminating at alternative London Termini (Euston was mentioned in other discussions) , where they would have to travel through Poplar Lines and Acton Wells .
For that there is no need for electrification as GWR 800’s are bio-mode .

I would not think that for 387’s ( or very unlikely Elizabeth Line ) electrification would be founded so they could go somewhere else off GWR lines just for duration of Old Oak Common blockade .

If anything I would’ve thought that the long distance services (800’s) could go to other termini and 387’s / Elizabeth Line could terminate at Ealing Broadway turning around at Acton West , staying entirely on GWR land .

 

[mangyiscute]

I am not sure what Acton Wells to Willesden Jn electrification, has to do with Ealing Broadway .

Trains did indeed terminate at Ealing Broadway few years back , and shunted from Up Relieve / Up Main to Dn Relieve / Dn Main via point-work at Acton West .

To do so , trains do not get near Acton Wells or Willesden Jn ( nor these two are on GWR mainline ).

Perhaps , you are thinking about GWR services terminating at alternative London Termini (Euston was mentioned in other discussions) , where they would have to travel through Poplar Lines and Acton Wells .
For that there is no need for electrification as GWR 800’s are bio-mode .

I would not think that for 387’s ( or very unlikely Elizabeth Line ) electrification would be founded so they could go somewhere else off GWR lines just for duration of Old Oak Common blockade .

If anything I would’ve thought that the long distance services (800’s) could go to other termini and 387’s / Elizabeth Line could terminate at Ealing Broadway turning around at Acton West , staying entirely on GWR land .

I think it was suggested that what gwr might do when old oak common is shut is terminate all long distance trains at Reading, and then run 12 coach 387s as a shuttle from Reading to Ealing Broadway, as I guess these have the best capacity? Then these could be used to go to a proper London termini instead

 

[gallafent]

the Tube isn't as frequent as it once was

Hmm, I'm not sure about that (can't remember), but, as an aside, it's about to get more frequent (amongst other improvements, such as some services calling at High Wycombe, and also some Carterton / Witney / Eynsham services):

https://www.oxfordtube.com/OctoberServiceChange.aspx

(Long page, excerpt below):

Improved frequency​

Great news; we’ll be increasing service levels across the board.

Services will run up toevery 10minutes Monday to Friday, 12 minutes on Saturdays and up to every 15 on Sundays. Into the night, services improve to every 20 minutes (15 minutes on Saturdays).

This will provide more capacity at weekends and during the week, including lates and nights. We truly present a 24/7 service; offering a reliable option for those late-night socialites.

 

[Meerkat]

I am not sure what Acton Wells to Willesden Jn electrification, has to do with Ealing Broadway .

IIRC it was about getting Lizzie trains from side to side so they could get to OOC depot??

 

[class ep-09]

IIRC it was about getting Lizzie trains from side to side so they could get to OOC depot??

I would think dragging them would be cheaper than electrifying , and providing that there will be access to OOC from the East during blockade in the first place .

But in principle , I think the idea of putting wires up would be great .

 

[Meerkat]

I would think dragging them would be cheaper than electrifying , and providing that there will be access to OOC from the East during blockade in the first place .

But in principle , I think the idea of putting wires up would be great .

Dragging several Units every day would get pretty expensive and time consuming wouldn’t it?
whilst the electrification would have other, permanent, uses.
I don’t see why HS2 would affect access to the Lizzie depot, the eastern access is a fair way from where the station will be.

 

[class ep-09]

Dragging several Units every day would get pretty expensive and time consuming wouldn’t it?
whilst the electrification would have other, permanent, uses.
I don’t see why HS2 would affect access to the Lizzie depot, the eastern access is a fair way from where the station will be.

If trains terminate at Ealing Bdw for the duration of a blockade , there won’t be big number of the sets operating on the West side ( Reading - Ealing Bdw) .
Perhaps only 4tph in each direction ( people wiser than me can calculate how many trains would be required ).

In principle they would not need to go to OOC for night storage as there is some capacity in Maidenhead , Reading or West Ealing even if using platforms to do so .

If the access to OOC for Lizzy Line sets was for heavy maintenance , then they could be dragged ( likely at night ) or go to the one of the depots based in the East for a swap .

Of course I can be wrong and I wish for Acton Wells to Willesden Jn to be electrified but I think there is no be a business case just for Lizzy trains to go from one side to the other , and empty, on their own.

 

[Meerkat]

If trains terminate at Ealing Bdw for the duration of a blockade , there won’t be big number of the sets operating on the West side ( Reading - Ealing Bdw) .
Perhaps only 4tph in each direction ( people wiser than me can calculate how many trains would be required ).

In principle they would not need to go to OOC for night storage as there is some capacity in Maidenhead , Reading or West Ealing even if using platforms to do so .

If the access to OOC for Lizzy Line sets was for heavy maintenance , then they could be dragged ( likely at night ) or go to the one of the depots based in the East for a swap .

Of course I can be wrong and I wish for Acton Wells to Willesden Jn to be electrified but I think there is no be a business case just for Lizzy trains to go from one side to the other , and empty, on their own.

I’m afraid I can’t remember the details (anyone got a digital MR subscription they can search?) but it did sound like the Lizzie people were pretty keen on getting the electrification to get their trains round.
Where would you couple/uncouple a drag without getting in the way?