Should i appeal this penalty fair? Or will i get fined more?

[Jrail03]

Hello,

i was travelling on an East Midlands railway service with a ticket i bought on trainline. I boarded at nottingham station on a train to bedford, trainline automatically applied my railcard and I completely forgot to bring it with me. i was questioned by a ticket inspector and realised i had forgot it. He knew i was on the train for a while but did not fine me double my ticket, he fined me 20 and wrote on the penalty fine notice that i got on and got off at two stops next to eachother, then sold me a ticket for the rest of my journey that was was about 70 pounds, he told me to appeal. I am in process of doing so, but it is clear in the appeal process that i was fined incorrectly, as i have to show my original ticket and write out all the information. Should i still appeal? Or could it end with me getting fined even more? Or maybe getting the inspector into trouble? Im really not sure what to do here.
Thanks for any responses im very anxious about how to proceed

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

Assuming that this is the first time that has happened, the appeal should mean that you get your money back. This is what East Midlands Railway have to say on their website at https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/tickets-discounts/travelling-without-a-ticket:

Forgotten railcards​

If you've bought a discounted ticket with a railcard, you must be able to show the railcard when you travel. If you can't show a valid railcard you'll need to buy a new full-price ticket, otherwise you may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

If you forget your railcard or can't show your digital railcard for any reason, we'll refund your additional ticket costs or cancel the Penalty Fare notice, once in any 12-month period. To arrange this, contact our Customer Service Centre.

If you have a digital railcard and your phone runs out of battery or gets lost, you can swap your railcard onto another mobile device.

I think the form at https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/form/customer-relations is what you want - the 'Your reason for contacting us' box offers 'Enquiry - I forgot my railcard' as an option.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello,

i was travelling on an East Midlands railway service with a ticket i bought on trainline. I boarded at nottingham station on a train to bedford, trainline automatically applied my railcard and I completely forgot to bring it with me. i was questioned by a ticket inspector and realised i had forgot it. He knew i was on the train for a while but did not fine me double my ticket, he fined me 20 and wrote on the penalty fine notice that i got on and got off at two stops next to eachother, then sold me a ticket for the rest of my journey that was was about 70 pounds, he told me to appeal. I am in process of doing so, but it is clear in the appeal process that i was fined incorrectly, as i have to show my original ticket and write out all the information. Should i still appeal? Or could it end with me getting fined even more? Or maybe getting the inspector into trouble? Im really not sure what to do here.
Thanks for any responses im very anxious about how to proceed

sounds like the ticket inspector did a slightly unconventional thing to 'minimise' the financial penalty you had to pay him (ie a pentlty fare for the shortest bit of journey then a new ticket) which seems unconventional to me but maybe it happens and it was his way of doing you a favour.

However, if you have not already used the 'forgotten railcard process' @Fawkes Cat outlines you should follow that excellent advice If you have already done that once in last 12 months I fear an appeal is going to be dismissed - but maybe worth a try (I'd welcome other views on that point however).

EDIT - struck-through following info supplied by @furlong in post #4

 

[furlong]

Use the 'forgotten railcard' process if you can as that trumps everything else. There is no discretion in selecting the parameters for a Penalty Fare - it must be from the station you boarded (assuming the issuer knows that after speaking to you) to the next stop based on where the train is when it was issued. A separate ticket is then sold for the rest of the journey. If the Penalty Fare was not issued between those two stations then it's invalid and an appeal should automatically succeed. (Edit: The focus is on whether the amount of the Penalty Fare was correct: if the wrong station was used but the amount was still correct this might not on its own give rise to a valid appeal.)

 

[Watershed]

Yep, no matter what you should raise an appeal against the Penalty Fare as this provides you with valuable protection should they decide to try and take you to Court.

However if you have merely forgotten your Railcard (rather than not having one at all) you should be able to get a refund of any additional fare or Penalty Fare you've paid, less a £10 admin fee.

 

[RPI]

Use the 'forgotten railcard' process if you can as that trumps everything else. There is no discretion in selecting the parameters for a Penalty Fare - it must be from the station you boarded (assuming the issuer knows that after speaking to you) to the next stop based on where the train is when it was issued. A separate ticket is then sold for the rest of the journey. If the Penalty Fare was not issued between those two stations then it's invalid and an appeal should automatically succeed. (Edit: The focus is on whether the amount of the Penalty Fare was correct: if the wrong station was used but the amount was still correct this might not on its own give rise to a valid appeal.)

Not technically true, a penalty fare can be issued to another station but not to the detriment of the passenger, example, penalty fare for entire journey works out at £20.00 it can be for the whole journey, generally on very short commuter type journeys with stations close together.

However, if for example the penalty fare for the whole journey worked out at £70.00 (twice the single fare for the whole journey) but the Penalty fare to the next stop + the onward single fare worked out at £50.00 then you must be issued the latter.

Its why the wording (at least on our notices) state "to the next or other station stop".

But I'm digressing.

 

[Watershed]

Not technically true, a penalty fare can be issued to another station but not to the detriment of the passenger, example, penalty fare for entire journey works out at £20.00 it can be for the whole journey, generally on very short commuter type journeys with stations close together.

However, if for example the penalty fare for the whole journey worked out at £70.00 (twice the single fare for the whole journey) but the Penalty fare to the next stop + the onward single fare worked out at £50.00 then you must be issued the latter.

Its why the wording (at least on our notices) state "to the next or other station stop".

But I'm digressing.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. The Regulations state that the amount of a Penalty Fare is to be determined as follows:

the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

...

“the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to—

(a) the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call; or​

(b) the station at which the person leaves the train if, at the time the penalty fare is charged—​

(i) the person is leaving the train; or​

(ii) the train is stationary at a station and there is sufficient opportunity for the person charged to leave the train at that station.​

Obviously in some cases issuing the Penalty Fare for the entire journey would be to the passenger's benefit, but this would not comply with the Regulations if there is an intermediate stop where the passenger could get off. If the passenger raised an appeal on this basis, they ought to succeed.

 

[RPI]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. The Regulations state that the amount of a Penalty Fare is to be determined as follows:

Obviously in some cases issuing the Penalty Fare for the entire journey would be to the passenger's benefit, but this would not comply with the Regulations if there is an intermediate stop where the passenger could get off. If the passenger raised an appeal on this basis, they ought to succeed.

Apologies, brain fart moment, I somehow confused myself with that and the £160.00 PF cap that GWR have

 

[furlong]

Not technically true, a penalty fare can be issued to another station but not to the detriment of the passenger, example, penalty fare for entire journey works out at £20.00 it can be for the whole journey, generally on very short commuter type journeys with stations close together.

If the penalty fare would be £20 in both cases, you ought to be able to get away with that because any appeal would be primarily concerned about whether or not the correct amount of money was charged for the Penalty Fare. I doubt that an appeal would be upheld on the basis of an incorrect calculation methodology so long as it reached the correct figure.

Obviously in some cases issuing the Penalty Fare for the entire journey would be to the passenger's benefit, but this would not comply with the Regulations if there is an intermediate stop where the passenger could get off. If the passenger raised an appeal on this basis, they ought to succeed.

The station to which the Penalty Fare is issued is only incorporated indirectly to calculate the amount. While that Penalty Fare would explicitly not itself permit travel beyond the next station, I can't see anything preventing an authorised collector (independently of the PF regulations) authorising additional free travel to a later station and for convenience incorporating this into the documention issued. (The regulations don't specify that the destination of the Penalty Fare has to be documented, just that the passenger must be allowed to travel to and exit that station).