Should I buy a season from Wokingham or Crowthorne?

[Crighton]

I will shortly need to begin travelling regularly between Crowthorne/Wokingham and London Paddington and my company will pay for an annual season ticket for this journey. For multiple reasons, I expect to use Crowthorne station 40% of the time and Wokingham 60%. I would be interested in your advice as to whether I should get a Crowthorne <> London Any Permitted or a Wokingham <> London Any Permitted as I think I might be overthinking this.

• I will occasionally want to travel to Gatwick and it would be useful if I could use the ticket between Wokingham and Guildford.
• Some of these trains do not stop at Crowthorne.
• AIUI a Wokingham to London Any Permitted ticket is valid via Guildford because the via Guildford ticket is cheaper than the Any Permitted despite Guildford not being on a Permitted route
• Crowthorne has routing points of Wokingham and Guildford
• The annual season Crowthorne to London is £4 cheaper than the annual season Wokingham to London. Does that mean Crowthorne to London via Wokingham fails the fare check for Wokingham as a valid routing point?
• My chances of hitting delay repay on a London to Crowthorne journey are higher than on a London to Wokingham one because of the lower frequency from Reading to Crowthorne. If the GWML train was delayed I would be more likely to miss the connection at Reading. For days when my car is at Crowthorne, would it be much harder to claim delay repay with a Wokingham to Reading ticket as I could be seen to be taking one journey Paddington to Wokingham and another Wokingham to Crowthorne?

Thanks for any advice or assurance

 

[30907]

The weekly Any Permitted seasons are the same price at £146.50 so the annuals should be identical.
There is no issue about non-stopping trains with a season.

 

[Bread & cheese]

The weekly Any Permitted seasons are the same price at £146.50 so the annuals should be identical.

In this case the annual season is not 40 times the weekly rate, but 40 times the 'base rate' (listed as PSS on brfares).
Wokingham to London £146.40
Crowthorne to London £146.30
Hence the £4 difference in the annual.

 

[Crighton]

Thanks. So does that 10p difference mean technically that if you want an annual from Crowthorne to Paddington you should buy it to start at Wokingham not Crowthorne? It seems absurd.

 

[Watershed]

• I will occasionally want to travel to Gatwick and it would be useful if I could use the ticket between Wokingham and Guildford.
• Some of these trains do not stop at Crowthorne.

This isn't a problem. The Crowthorne season ticket would be valid to travel non-stop from Wokingham through Crowthorne, since it allows unlimited travel so your ticket doesn't expire upon passing Crowthorne, as a single/return would. Even if one regarded it as using 'two' tickets by virtue of the two different permitted routes you are relying on, non-stop splits are permitted when using a season ticket, so this not a problem either.

• AIUI a Wokingham to London Any Permitted ticket is valid via Guildford because the via Guildford ticket is cheaper than the Any Permitted despite Guildford not being on a Permitted route
• Crowthorne has routing points of Wokingham and Guildford
• The annual season Crowthorne to London is £4 cheaper than the annual season Wokingham to London. Does that mean Crowthorne to London via Wokingham fails the fare check for Wokingham as a valid routing point?

A fair question but no, the slight difference in price (which is likely an oversight) does not prevent you from travelling via Wokingham. Fares checks are done using the Off-Peak Day Single (or the closest equivalent), rather than the season ticket fare. This is partly because not all journeys have season tickets.

Furthermore you use the fares that were in effect at the NFM64 fares setting round (i.e. September 1996). The intent behind this is to prevent differential post-privatisation increases across different journeys/operators from denying previously valid routes.

When you conduct the fares check using Off-Peak Day Singles in effect at NFM64, Crowthorne to London Terminals is more expensive than Wokingham to London Terminals, so Wokingham passes the fares check.

There is a handy Routeing Point Calculator tool you can use, which also shows any easements which may apply. In this case it surfaces easement 700371, which would permit Wokingham as a Routeing Point even if it were to fail the fares check.

My chances of hitting delay repay on a London to Crowthorne journey are higher than on a London to Wokingham one because of the lower frequency from Reading to Crowthorne. If the GWML train was delayed I would be more likely to miss the connection at Reading. For days when my car is at Crowthorne, would it be much harder to claim delay repay with a Wokingham to Reading ticket as I could be seen to be taking one journey Paddington to Wokingham and another Wokingham to Crowthorne?

I would concur. Legally speaking you could argue you are making one journey to Crowthorne using the validity of multiple routes, but in practical terms it will be easier to claim Delay Repay if you buy the Crowthorne season ticket.

 

[Crighton]

Thank you so much @Watershed you taught me a lot there.

 

[Nottingham59]

AIUI a Wokingham to London Any Permitted ticket is valid via Guildford because the via Guildford ticket is cheaper than the Any Permitted despite Guildford not being on a Permitted route

Though that depends on via Guildford remaining cheaper for the whole period of the annual season ticket.

 

[Haywain]

AIUI a Wokingham to London Any Permitted ticket is valid via Guildford

That's not the case as there is not a mapped route via Guildford. A ticket from Crowthorne, however, has Guildford as a routeing point and is therefore valid that way, as well as having the same validity associated with a ticket from Wokingham.

Though that depends on via Guildford remaining cheaper for the whole period of the annual season ticket.

Current fares are not used to determine valid routes, and NFM64 fares are not used in isolation.

 

[greaterangrier]

That's not the case as there is not a mapped route via Guildford. A ticket from Crowthorne, however, has Guildford as a routeing point and is therefore valid that way, as well as having the same validity associated with a ticket from Wokingham.

Re. Wokingham validity via Guildford - is this necessarily true?

A Crowthorne ticket is undeniably valid via Guildford, but I'm not sure it's that clear for Wokingham. After all, journey planners are happy to sell the route ASCOT/GUILDFORD tickets that way. I'd be interested to know the logic behind why that's happening. Some digging reveals that some journey planners might be combining the permitted routes from the Wokingham to the via station (Guildford) then from there to the destination? Is this documented anywhere as a rule to establish permitted routes?

Of course in the context of the thread, a Crowthorne ticket is superior.

 

[Haywain]

Re. Wokingham validity via Guildford - is this necessarily true?

A Crowthorne ticket is undeniably valid via Guildford, but I'm not sure it's that clear for Wokingham. After all, journey planners are happy to sell the route ASCOT/GUILDFORD tickets that way. I'd be interested to know the logic behind why that's happening. Some digging reveals that some journey planners might be combining the permitted routes from the Wokingham to the via station (Guildford) then from there to the destination? Is this documented anywhere as a rule to establish permitted routes?

Of course in the context of the thread, a Crowthorne ticket is superior.

A ticket from Wokingham routed Ascot/Guildford is undoubtedly valid via Guildford, but that ticket would then lose the validity to London via Reading that an 'Any Permitted' ticket has.
Edit: The Any Permitted ticket is valid via Guildford because of the existence of the cheaper 'route Ascot/Guildford' season. Managing to thoroughly confuse myself, let alone anyone else!

journey planners might be combining the permitted routes from the Wokingham to the via station (Guildford) then from there to the destination? Is this documented anywhere as a rule to establish permitted routes?

The Routeing Guide sets out that as a legitimate way of finding a valid route for such a ticket where there is not a mapped route for the whole journey through the via point.

 

[Non Multi]

A lot of Wokingham commuters just drive to Twyford, Maidenhead or Taplow and take the EL or GWR service from there rather than doubling back.

 

[Crighton]

A ticket from Wokingham routed Ascot/Guildford is undoubtedly valid via Guildford, but that ticket would then lose the validity to London via Reading that an 'Any Permitted' ticket has.
Edit: The Any Permitted ticket is valid via Guildford because of the existence of the cheaper 'route Ascot/Guildford' season. Managing to thoroughly confuse myself, let alone anyone else!

The Routeing Guide sets out that as a legitimate way of finding a valid route for such a ticket where there is not a mapped route for the whole journey through the via point.

There’s an example on page F17 of an Any Permitted fare from Huddersfield to London having additional validity via Manchester

A lot of Wokingham commuters just drive to Twyford, Maidenhead or Taplow and take the EL or GWR service from there rather than doubling back.

Which makes sense if you can get there early enough to park, especially given the vast price differential. I gather Twyford and Taplow are often full by 7am and there seem to be big queues on the M4 to get off at Maidenhead

 

[MikeWh]

Which makes sense if you can get there early enough to park, especially given the vast price differential. I gather Twyford and Taplow are often full by 7am and there seem to be big queues on the M4 to get off at Maidenhead

Especially given that touching in before 0630 gives you off-peak fares.

 

[kieron]

This isn't a problem. The Crowthorne season ticket would be valid to travel non-stop from Wokingham through Crowthorne, since it allows unlimited travel so your ticket doesn't expire upon passing Crowthorne, as a single/return would. Even if one regarded it as using 'two' tickets by virtue of the two different permitted routes you are relying on, non-stop splits are permitted when using a season ticket, so this not a problem either.

Is that documented anywhere? There's a "Using a Combination of Tickets" section in the Conditions of Travel but 14.2 refers to "a commbination of two or more Tickets" and 14.3 to "a Season Ticket ... in conjunction with another Ticket". I can't see anything to suggest either applies when you make one journey using a season ticket and then make a second journey using the same ticket.

This is whiy, if I was in Crighton's situation, I would rather have a Wokingham-London season ticket. Having a train company which doesn't treat two journeys with the same season ticket as being a single journey isn't ideal with either ticket, but it isn't equally bad in each case.

With a Wokingham-London season ticket, they could refuse to take a missed connection into account when calculating delay repay. With a Crowthorne-London season ticket, they could treat me as not having had a valid ticket between Wokingham and Blackwater (or wherever the train stopped after Wokingham). As far as I know, this could mean a penalty fare or prosecution.

 

[The Ham]

Is that documented anywhere? There's a "Using a Combination of Tickets" section in the Conditions of Travel but 14.2 refers to "a commbination of two or more Tickets" and 14.3 to "a Season Ticket ... in conjunction with another Ticket". I can't see anything to suggest either applies when you make one journey using a season ticket and then make a second journey using the same ticket.

This is whiy, if I was in Crighton's situation, I would rather have a Wokingham-London season ticket. Having a train company which doesn't treat two journeys with the same season ticket as being a single journey isn't ideal with either ticket, but it isn't equally bad in each case.

With a Wokingham-London season ticket, they could refuse to take a missed connection into account when calculating delay repay. With a Crowthorne-London season ticket, they could treat me as not having had a valid ticket between Wokingham and Blackwater (or wherever the train stopped after Wokingham). As far as I know, this could mean a penalty fare or prosecution.

If there's any concern buying a single between (say) Crowthorn and Blackwater would solve the issue, as you've then got two tickets.

Given that travel was for when heading to Gatwick (i.e. I expect it's infrequent), the extra cost would be limited.

Of course others with better knowledge will be able to advise if that's not even an issue.

 

[Watershed]

Is that documented anywhere? There's a "Using a Combination of Tickets" section in the Conditions of Travel but 14.2 refers to "a commbination of two or more Tickets" and 14.3 to "a Season Ticket ... in conjunction with another Ticket". I can't see anything to suggest either applies when you make one journey using a season ticket and then make a second journey using the same ticket.

This is whiy, if I was in Crighton's situation, I would rather have a Wokingham-London season ticket. Having a train company which doesn't treat two journeys with the same season ticket as being a single journey isn't ideal with either ticket, but it isn't equally bad in each case.

With a Wokingham-London season ticket, they could refuse to take a missed connection into account when calculating delay repay. With a Crowthorne-London season ticket, they could treat me as not having had a valid ticket between Wokingham and Blackwater (or wherever the train stopped after Wokingham). As far as I know, this could mean a penalty fare or prosecution.

I think it would be an argument verging on the absurd if any guard or RPI were to suggest that this season ticket isn't valid to pass through Crowthorne non-stop. The season ticket covers the entire journey in terms of the route; it permits unlimited travel and break of journey; and it's permissible to undertake non-stop splits. I think if you look at it in that context, no reasonable judge (in the event any such dispute reached court) would interpret the contract as meaning that non-stop trains through Crowthorne are barred.

Obviously that's not to say it's impossible the argument could be made, but it seems highly unlikely to me. Of course, if @Crighton wanted to avoid any accusations of possible irregularities they could buy an additional ticket to the next stop after Crowthorne as outlined by @The Ham

 

[FenMan]

A Blackwater - London ANY PERMITTED season ticket costing £5852 (same as Crowthorne) would overcome this. Valid via Crowthorne, Wokingham, Reading and Guildford.

All NDL services call at Blackwater.

 

[Watershed]

A Blackwater - London ANY PERMITTED season ticket costing £5852 (same as Crowthorne) would overcome this. Valid via Crowthorne, Wokingham, Reading and Guildford.

All NDL services call at Blackwater.

I think the only potential downside is that, much there same as a season ticket to Wokingham, the OP may get a hard time claiming Delay Repay if they're say they're travelling to Crowthorne.

They may be told they need to enter the "full journey" they're making. But if they say they're travelling to Blackwater (the "full" journey) then the increased NDL frequency there would potentially reduce the amount of Delay Repay paid.

Of course there is no rule requiring you to claim for the entire journey covered by your season ticket, but I've had Delay Repay claims rejected on that basis before and had to appeal them. It's a pain.

 

[Crighton]

Especially given that touching in before 0630 gives you off-peak fares.

Thank you. That’s an angle I hadn’t thought of. Especially if you have to start early to get parking anyhow. The price difference between early Twyford returning with a network railcard and day return from Wokingham is stunning for a few minutes extra driving.

If there's any concern buying a single between (say) Crowthorn and Blackwater would solve the issue, as you've then got two tickets.

Given that travel was for when heading to Gatwick (i.e. I expect it's infrequent), the extra cost would be limited.

Of course others with better knowledge will be able to advise if that's not even an issue.

You’re right, Gatwick would be infrequent (say once a quarter) but nice to have. Definitely would prefer to buy the occasional single rather than lose the delay repay.

A Blackwater - London ANY PERMITTED season ticket costing £5852 (same as Crowthorne) would overcome this. Valid via Crowthorne, Wokingham, Reading and Guildford.

All NDL services call at Blackwater.

Brilliant call. Thank you. It comes to something when the correct answer to Wokingham or Crowthorne is Blackwater !

thanks everyone for your help on this post.