Should I have been given an excess fare?

[u0824]

Last year, I was referred to Govia Thameslink’s prosecution team. I settled out of court due to the fear of getting a criminal record.

After reading online about the National Rail conditions, I was just wondering whether I was unfairly referred to the prosecution team.

Prior to this incident, I have never received a penalty fare nor been referred to a prosecution department.

Below is what happened with led to me being referred to the prosecution team:

I had an anytime open return ticket from Tottenham Hale to Cambridge North.

My ticket was a flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when I could travel.

My ticket was not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals. The ticket had no restrictions regarding TOCs.

On the date of my ticket, I travelled from Cambridge North to London Kings Cross using this ticket.

When I explained the guard the situation at London Kings Cross, I immediately offered to pay for a new ticket and apologised. Ultimately, he decided to refer me to the prosecution team.

As I was using my ticket for a route which wasn’t valid, shouldn’t I have been given an “excess fare” (as per 9.5 of the National Rail Terms and Conditions). Or am I incorrect?

 

[methecooldude]

How did you get to Kings Cross? Did you board a Great Northern Service rather than a Greater Anglia service?

As far as I can see, you over traveled on your ticket and 9.5 does not apply. Others may have different opinions.

 

[u0824]

I boarded a Greater Anglia service from Cambridge North to Cambridge and then a Great Northern Service from Cambridge to London Kings Cross.

How did you get to Kings Cross? Did you board a Great Northern Service rather than a Greater Anglia service?

As far as I can see, you over traveled on your ticket and 9.5 does not apply. Others may have different opinions.

 

[yorkie]

Last year, I was referred to Govia Thameslink’s prosecution team. I settled out of court due to the fear of getting a criminal record.

After reading online about the National Rail conditions, I was just wondering whether I was unfairly referred to the prosecution team.

Prior to this incident, I have never received a penalty fare nor been referred to a prosecution department.

Below is what happened with led to me being referred to the prosecution team:

I had an anytime open return ticket from Tottenham Hale to Cambridge North.

My ticket was a flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when I could travel.

My ticket was not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals. The ticket had no restrictions regarding TOCs.

On the date of my ticket, I travelled from Cambridge North to London Kings Cross using this ticket.

When I explained the guard the situation at London Kings Cross, I immediately offered to pay for a new ticket and apologised. Ultimately, he decided to refer me to the prosecution team.

As I was using my ticket for a route which wasn’t valid, shouldn’t I have been given an “excess fare” (as per 9.5 of the National Rail Terms and Conditions). Or am I incorrect?

You are entitled to pay half the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare (including any Railcard discount, if applicable).

Assuming you meant you had an undiscounted Anytime Day Return, the relevant fares are:

SDR not via London £38.50
SDR via London £44.90

Amount payable = £3.20

I am not surprised to hear that GTR staff are mistreating/overcharging customers; I've heard numerous other reports of incorrect actions by staff at this rotten company.

There are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that train company staff apply the rules correctly or behave appropriately.

GTR is the company that operate trains branded "Great Northern", "Thameslink", "Southern" and "Gatwick Express".

 

[u0824]

You are entitled to pay half the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare (including any Railcard discount, if applicable).

Thank you.

As mentioned above, I already settled out of court due to being referred to the prosecution team for this matter.

If I was entitled to pay an excess fare, should I mention this to the prosecution team?

 

[yorkie]

Absolutely.

I wouldn't trust the prosecution team to spot this, due to the lack of appropriate safeguards in place, but you would think that if you specifically mentioned this, they might look the rules up.

However, poor behaviour is so common among revenue officers and prosecution departments of companies such as GTR, there is no amount of poor behaviour that would surprise me any more.

Contrast that to this forum, where we have many knowledgeable experts on hand.

Companies like GTR could enlist experts to provide appropriate training and carry out mystery shopping and spot checks, however it's more profitable to incorrectly charge and threaten people instead.

I can't see this ever changing; there is no effective regulator, passenger watchdog or ombudsman with the required level of knowledge and powers to do anything about it.

 

[u0824]

Absolutely.

I wouldn't trust the prosecution team to spot this, due to the lack of appropriate safeguards in place, but you would think that if you specifically mentioned this, they might look the rules up.

However, poor behaviour is so common among revenue officers and prosecution departments of companies such as GTR, there is no amount of poor behaviour that would surprise me any more.

Contrast that to this forum, where we have many knowledgeable experts on hand.

Companies like GTR could enlist experts to provide appropriate training and carry out mystery shopping and spot checks, however it's more profitable to incorrectly charge and threaten people instead.

I can't see this ever changing; there is no effective regulator, passenger watchdog or ombudsman with the required level of knowledge and powers to do anything about it.

Ok - thanks.

 

[u0824]

Absolutely.

I wouldn't trust the prosecution team to spot this, due to the lack of appropriate safeguards in place, but you would think that if you specifically mentioned this, they might look the rules up.

However, poor behaviour is so common among revenue officers and prosecution departments of companies such as GTR, there is no amount of poor behaviour that would surprise me any more.

Contrast that to this forum, where we have many knowledgeable experts on hand.

Companies like GTR could enlist experts to provide appropriate training and carry out mystery shopping and spot checks, however it's more profitable to incorrectly charge and threaten people instead.

I can't see this ever changing; there is no effective regulator, passenger watchdog or ombudsman with the required level of knowledge and powers to do anything about it.

When writing to the prosecutions department, should I be questioning why I was referred to the prosecutions team? Would there be any benefit of me writing to them, considering I have settled out of court already?

Thank you.

 

[yorkie]

The way you were treated was completely incorrect, but I am not sure of the best way to go about rectifying it.

If you'd like to come up with some draft wording, then I am sure at least one of us would be up for proofreading it for you.

 

[yorkie]

Draft letter received; I've made some adjustments as follows:

Dear Prosecutions Team,

I purchased an Anytime Day Return ticket from Cambridge North to Tottenham Hale.

Using this ticket, I travelled from Cambridge North to London Kings Cross Station; when I arrived at King's Cross, my ticket was rejected by the barriers. I spoke with an officer and showed him my ticket, which was routed "Not via London".

The officer reported the matter to the Prosecutions Team. This matter has now been settled out of court

I have since discovered the officer was incorrect to do this; I should have been charged an excess fare; as per the National Rail Conditions of Travel 9.5: "Where you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid... you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using".

Others employed within the rail industry have calculated the sum I should have been charged was £3.20.

I wasn’t informed by the officer at Kings Cross Station that an excess charge was payable – the difference between the fare I had paid (SDR not via London) and the lowest price ticket that was valid for the train I used (SDR via London); in my case that would be half the difference, as I was using a return ticket.

Instead, I was referred to the Prosecutions Department, in violation of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Therefore, I am requesting a refund of the money I paid in the form of an out of court settlement, less the £3.20 due, i.e. £xx.xx

Yours Sincerely,
XXX.

Someone else may feel the wording can be tweaked further (we normally request that members are not tagged in dispute conversations, and certainly not if the customer is in the wrong, but on this occasion I will tag @Watershed and @Hadders, as you are in the right with this matter, and this is the sort of case they may be interested in; also I would welcome any tweaks to my initial draft they may come up with!)

 

[WesternLancer]

Draft letter received; I've made some adjustments as follows:



Someone else may feel the wording can be tweaked further (we normally request that members are not tagged in dispute conversations, and certainly not if the customer is in the wrong, but on this occasion I will tag @Watershed and @Hadders, as you are in the right with this matter, and this is the sort of case they may be interested in; also I would welcome any tweaks to my initial draft they may come up with!)

Nothing much to say on what looks like a well worded draft but

- I would insert the ref numbers clearly under the 'Dear Prosecutions Team' if the OP has them still (ref numbers off the original case), and
- perhaps cite the date the offer to settle out of court was made (even enclose a copy of the offer letter etc if still have it ), and cite the date payment made by the OP - all simply in the interests of matching the case up their end.

- I might even be tempted to give it a title after the ref number ' eg: 'Request for refund of settlement payment' - again for clarity to the person who first reads this when received.

I think the OP may need to be prepared to go the Ombudsman if the request is ignored or rejected.

A shame the ORR (regulator's) call for evidence for their enquiry has now closed - it would have been a good example to have highlighted with them.

 

[Hadders]

I think the proposed wording is fine and explains the position clearly.

Have you still got the ticket you used on the day you were caught or, if you haven't and it was bought online, can you access a booking reference for what you purchased via your online account. I think it would be useful if you could include a copy referencing the exact ticket purchased.

While GTR are generally reasonable to deal with when it comes to out of court settlements (arguably they are sometimes too reasonable) they are not immune from howlers like this which anyone employed to check tickets shoudl be aware of.

Please do let us know how you get on.

 

[u0824]

Unfortunately I have not received a response from GTR.

Is it worth going to the Ombudsman or should I just move on?

Thanks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately I have not received a response from GTR.

Is it worth going to the Ombudsman or should I just move on?

Thanks.

The Ombudsman does not interfere in prosecution cases. You'd be best off sending a letter before action. I wouldn't let them get away with this.

 

[u0824]

The Ombudsman does not interfere in prosecution cases. You'd be best off sending a letter before action. I wouldn't let them get away with this.

When you say sending a letter, do you mean I should send a second letter to GTR?

 

[AlterEgo]

When you say sending a letter, do you mean I should send a second letter to GTR?

A letter to GTR threatening civil action to recover the amount improperly claimed by them in breach of their contract with you.

 

[Nottingham59]

When you say sending a letter, do you mean I should send a second letter to GTR?

What you might wish to do first is go through the original letter that GTR sent you and look for any statements that you can prove were false, and that you relied on to decide whether to make an offer of settlement. Such as any claim by GTR that the ticket you held was not valid at all, when in fact it qualified for payment of an excess fare and was therefore valid for that purpose.

As far as I understand the law (but I am not a lawyer), to knowingly make a false statement in writing in order to gain a pecuniary advantage, such as eliciting an offer to settle, is to commit the offence of fraud against you.

That might make your case stronger if you wish to later make a civil claim against GTR in the small claims court.

 

[u0824]

What you might wish to do first is go through the original letter that GTR sent you and look for any statements that you can prove were false, and that you relied on to decide whether to make an offer of settlement. Such as any claim by GTR that the ticket you held was not valid at all, when in fact it qualified for payment of an excess fare and was therefore valid for that purpose.

As far as I understand the law (but I am not a lawyer), to knowingly make a false statement in writing in order to gain a pecuniary advantage, such as eliciting an offer to settle, is to commit the offence of fraud against you.

That might make your case stronger if you wish to later make a civil claim against GTR in the small claims court.

I used a lawyer to help me get an out of court settlement so I didn’t receive a letter from GTR.

 

[Nottingham59]

I used a lawyer to help me get an out of court settlement so I didn’t receive a letter from GTR.

OK. Forget that then.

 

[furlong]

I used a lawyer to help me get an out of court settlement so I didn’t receive a letter from GTR.

Then you might also have a potential negligence complaint/claim against that lawyer: Why didn't the lawyer spot this? (In turn though, the lawyer might also attempt to claim against the rail company if it was for the same cause.)
You may also be inviting the rail company to reimburse any unnecessary legal costs.

(Under the contract, you should have been charged the fare difference on the spot - no need for any lawyer or out-of-court settlement.)

 

[Hadders]

In the first instance, I would send a polite reminder to GTR enquiring about when you can expect to receive a response.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In the first instance, I would send a polite reminder to GTR enquiring about when you can expect to receive a response.

I haven't brought myself up to speed with the whole thread, but practically speaking also enclose a copy of the letter that they seem to have ignored. It's not impossible that the original has gone astray, and giving them another copy will make it easier for them to respond to it.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I used a lawyer to help me get an out of court settlement so I didn’t receive a letter from GTR.

I am a little confused, how did you know to contact a lawyer? Was the first you heard about this when you received a Single Justice Procedure Notice?

 

[u0824]

I am a little confused, how did you know to contact a lawyer? Was the first you heard about this when you received a Single Justice Procedure Notice?

I only received a GTR witness statement at the train station.

As a result, I did some research online as to what the next steps were and I found that I could settle out of court using a lawyer.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Ok so you proactively contacted GTR after receiving the witness statement. Do you still have it? If you upload a redacted copy there may be something helpful to your case.

 

[u0824]

Ok so you proactively contacted GTR after receiving the witness statement. Do you still have it? If you upload a redacted copy there may be something helpful to your case.

** Witness statement removed. **

 

[AlterEgo]

I only received a GTR witness statement at the train station.

As a result, I did some research online as to what the next steps were and I found that I could settle out of court using a lawyer.

No offence but you have a terrible lawyer.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Thanks for the upload, nothing very helpful to be honest. As others have said you have been treated terribly. I think I would ask the lawyer for copies of the correspondence they had with GTR, and ask GTR for a copy of all the documentation they have. If GTR are difficult about it I believe a Subject Access Request should unearth it.

As others have mentioned, if you can find a clear example where GTR have misrepresented the validity of your ticket you will be in a much stronger position to make a claim against them.

 

[enyoueffsea]

I would send a complaint both to the law firm you used, as they should have known an excess fare should have applied, as well as GTR.

If you’ve emailed their prosecution inbox they’ll probably just ignore it, to be honest. Log it as a complaint.

Although I can’t say I have any confidence you will be treated properly with a sensible outcome achieved.