Should jobseekers get discounts for leisure travel?

[insidetrack77]

Working in a ticket office, I must confess I am always suspicious of these JCP railcards. I know these suspicions are possibly unwarranted, but I am uneasy with the fact these can just be given out at Job Centres rather than through a TOC or other such appointed agent.

As such I always check out these railcards very closely.

 

[LowLevel]

Working in a ticket office, I must confess I am always suspicious of these JCP railcards. I know these suspicions are possibly unwarranted, but I am uneasy with the fact these can just be given out at Job Centres rather than through a TOC or other such appointed agent.

As such I always check out these railcards very closely.

They are pretty much unwarranted - only certain DWP officials can approve the issue of a JCP card and they are supervisor grade (executive officer) or above. There's an audit trail as with everything in the civil service, you can't just pick one up out of a rack in the office, it has to be offered and issued to you by said official.

 

[bnm]

Working in a ticket office, I must confess I am always suspicious of these JCP railcards. I know these suspicions are possibly unwarranted, but I am uneasy with the fact these can just be given out at Job Centres rather than through a TOC or other such appointed agent.

As such I always check out these railcards very closely.

On of those 'other such appointed agents' being the Department for Work and Pensions. Who have a pretty robust system in place for the issuing of the JCP Railcard. A system (including a Memorandum of Understanding) made in agreement with ATOC.

Details of policy, issuance, compliance, use of, auditing, and security for the JobCentre Plus Railcard can be read in the following .pdf document released following a Freedom of Information request:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...ach/3/Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card.pdf

They ain't handed out like sweets and scrutiny need only be the same as for any other railcard type. Being 'always suspicious' merely because the railcard being shown is the JCP one just smacks of unfounded prejudice. So yes, definitely unwarranted.

However, thanks to this topic it appears I could be eligible for one as I'm currently engaged with an ESA advisor, helping me return to employment. I already have a DSB Railcard, but the 50% discount will certainly help with my travel costs for the current Permitted Work I'm doing. Just a shame I'm not seeing my Advisor until the end of June.

 

[insidetrack77]

My suspicions arise chiefly from the fact these cards are often used at times and to destinations where jobseeking does not appear to be the reason for travel. I am uneasy about 'jobseekers' heading for stag weekends in the big cities and enquiring about weekend breaks to London (not valid from Scotland) most probably with 50% of any travel costs being met by the taxpayer.

 

[Squaddie]

I am uneasy about 'jobseekers' heading for stag weekends in the big cities and enquiring about weekend breaks to London (not valid from Scotland) most probably with 50% of any travel costs being met by the taxpayer.

The unemployed have just as much right to spend their money on weekends away as those in jobs, and goood luck to them if they can get a publicly-funded discount: being out of work is a miserable experience.

 

[34D]

Is this jobseekers railcard available across England then? I thought it was just London?

 

[Darandio]

My suspicions arise chiefly from the fact these cards are often used at times and to destinations where jobseeking does not appear to be the reason for travel.

Which I'm sorry to tell you, has nothing to do with you whatsoever. You work in a ticket office and sell them the ticket using a completely valid card, it's none of your concern.

 

[Emyr]

My suspicions arise chiefly from the fact these cards are often used at times and to destinations where jobseeking does not appear to be the reason for travel. I am uneasy about 'jobseekers' heading for stag weekends in the big cities and enquiring about weekend breaks to London (not valid from Scotland) most probably with 50% of any travel costs being met by the taxpayer.

Do you have any data to substantiate that assertion?

 

[LowLevel]

My suspicions arise chiefly from the fact these cards are often used at times and to destinations where jobseeking does not appear to be the reason for travel. I am uneasy about 'jobseekers' heading for stag weekends in the big cities and enquiring about weekend breaks to London (not valid from Scotland) most probably with 50% of any travel costs being met by the taxpayer.

The card can be used for whatever the holder likes within the terms of it's use. Stop worrying about it (from a previous JSA claimant, previous benefit office supervisor and current train conductor ). Whether you agree with what it can be used for is a different matter entirely and it's a bit unfair to subject these people to addition scrutiny beyond what you'd diligently give to any other pass.

It is perfectly valid for leisure travel, just as rail staff travel isn't just for duty or residential travel.

 

[bicbasher]

Is this jobseekers railcard available across England then? I thought it was just London?

You're thinking of the Bus and Tram Photocard, which is a TfL subsidised product offering 50% off bus singles and season tickets for those in receipt of Income Support or Employment and Support Allowance or JSA after 12 weeks.

JSA claimants also need authorisation from a JCP adviser, where as IS and ESA claimants can obtain it from the first day of their claim.

 

[sutty]

I'm sure it feels great to sit in your comfy chair selling tickets asking questions such as these. If and when you ever need the welfare state, remind yourself of this thread. The long term deliberately jobless need clamping down on, but don't mistake somebody getting a break from constant rejections, the full time job of getting a job as somebody abusing the system.

 

[insidetrack77]

If you read my original post, I am not judging anybody. Its the railcard I disagree with, not the people using it. I am well aware how it feels to be unemployed for a considerable period, and I would've appreciated discounted rail travel greatly at that time in order to help find a job.

Perhaps suspicion was a strong term to use, what I meant to say is that when someone shows a JCP railcard I will always look at it and check validity closely, because it has been made up and allocated by a body separate to any TOC. I understand there are strict processes attached to the issue of the card, and that the persons using them most probably didn't ask for them.

However I won't deny that it grates on me when I see the card being used exclusively for leisure travel, as I do on a weekly basis. The mentions of stag weekends and the lady looking for a weekend in London weren't apocryphal. Last week I was asked about a discount on a ticket to Manchester for the One Direction gig. I understand and recognise everyone has a right to leisure time and enjoyment, but for me that is the point where this moves from being a Jobseeker's Railcard to being something else.

 

[tgsh2011]

My suspicions arise chiefly from the fact these cards are often used at times and to destinations where jobseeking does not appear to be the reason for travel. I am uneasy about 'jobseekers' heading for stag weekends in the big cities and enquiring about weekend breaks to London (not valid from Scotland) most probably with 50% of any travel costs being met by the taxpayer.

Can see that the IDS/Daily Mail "Let's bash a benefit claimant" propaganda nonsense is working very well with you!

 

[pennine]

If you read my original post, I am not judging anybody. Its the railcard I disagree with, not the people using it. I am well aware how it feels to be unemployed for a considerable period, and I would've appreciated discounted rail travel greatly at that time in order to help find a job.

Perhaps suspicion was a strong term to use, what I meant to say is that when someone shows a JCP railcard I will always look at it and check validity closely, because it has been made up and allocated by a body separate to any TOC. I understand there are strict processes attached to the issue of the card, and that the persons using them most probably didn't ask for them.

However I won't deny that it grates on me when I see the card being used exclusively for leisure travel, as I do on a weekly basis. The mentions of stag weekends and the lady looking for a weekend in London weren't apocryphal. Last week I was asked about a discount on a ticket to Manchester for the One Direction gig. I understand and recognise everyone has a right to leisure time and enjoyment, but for me that is the point where this moves from being a Jobseeker's Railcard to being something else.

How can you clarify that a person is using their card purely for leisure travel?

I'm sorry to learn you know what its like to be unemployed for a considerable time, and that no railcard was issued at that time; but if it did, can you honestly say you wouldn't have used it for leisure?

People have views, and quite rightly so, but I hope as someone who sells tickets you remain impartial.

Personally if there is a stigma, I can see why people book online.

 

[telstarbox]

Should jobseekers get discounts for leisure travel?

Yes, as long as they have the Railcard legitimately and the T&Cs allow it. It's extra revenue for the railway (even with the discount) and when the jobseeker finds a job they will be more likely to become a 'repeat customer' and use the railway for work or leisure travel.

It would also be very difficult to enforce a 'work-related travel only' policy without making the scheme unworkable and ticket staff and guards shouldn't need to act as benefits police.

 

[bicbasher]

The JCP photocard is basically a rebranded New Deal photocard with the added bonus of allowing those on Employment and Support Allowance who are still technically unfit for work in helping them travel at a discount to help them prepare for work.

I had one of those when I was on the scheme. It came in very handy for job searches and attending interviews.

Yes, I took advantage of a couple of leisure trips and child rate Travelcards, but as I had little money, it wasn't like I was using it to take the mickey.

 

[bnm]

If you read my original post, I am not judging anybody. Its the railcard I disagree with, not the people using it. I am well aware how it feels to be unemployed for a considerable period, and I would've appreciated discounted rail travel greatly at that time in order to help find a job.

Perhaps suspicion was a strong term to use, what I meant to say is that when someone shows a JCP railcard I will always look at it and check validity closely, because it has been made up and allocated by a body separate to any TOC. I understand there are strict processes attached to the issue of the card, and that the persons using them most probably didn't ask for them.

However I won't deny that it grates on me when I see the card being used exclusively for leisure travel, as I do on a weekly basis. The mentions of stag weekends and the lady looking for a weekend in London weren't apocryphal. Last week I was asked about a discount on a ticket to Manchester for the One Direction gig. I understand and recognise everyone has a right to leisure time and enjoyment, but for me that is the point where this moves from being a Jobseeker's Railcard to being something else.

As with most other railcards, it is a product that brings extra revenue to the rail network. From people who would otherwise not use trains due to the cost. The other 50% of a fare is not made up by the taxpayer. Just as the 34% reduction for other Railcards is also not subsidised by Joe Public. And lest you come back by saying these incentives are subsidised by other fare payers, let me say again, it is almost always extra revenue. I don't begrudge you your Priv (soon to be extended to Off Peak fares) because I know, again, it is additional revenue.

How can you possibly know anyone's JCP Railcard is being used 'exclusively' for leisure travel? You've seen every ticket purchased by one individual during the 3 month validity of their card, and quizzed them as to the reasons for their journeys?

Get off the high horse, check the validity (in the same way as other Railcards - no need for extra scrutiny), sell the ticket and move on to the next punter. None of your business how, why, where and when a JCP Railcard is used.

You say you aren't 'judging'. But you're doing exactly that by highlighting examples where it 'grates' you that someone might be using their JCP Railcard to make a trip for leisure. Something they are perfectly entitled to do.

Some leisure attractions have reduced prices for the unwaged. Does that grate as well? I get the feeling that you'd rather Jobseekers did nothing but look for work every waking hour. At just a few hours a day it's pretty soul destroying. Some relief from that by being able to join friends for a weekend away, or going to see One Direction (if that's your thing), because the rail industry and the state allow a product such as the JCP Railcard, seems to me to be the mark of a decent society.

 

[IanD]

Working in a ticket office, I must confess I am always suspicious of these JCP railcards. I know these suspicions are possibly unwarranted, but I am uneasy with the fact these can just be given out at Job Centres rather than through a TOC or other such appointed agent.

As such I always check out these railcards very closely.

As if being unemployed is not bad enough without some self-appointed scrutineer pointing it out. Do you do the same when a disabled card holder turns up at your counter with no obvious disability, or a mature student presents a 16-24 railcard, or a forces railcard holder turns up in mufti or a young looking person presents a senior railcard?

If you are serious about your job then you should look at all railcards very closely but it seems you don't, which is just ridiculous, un-called for prejudice.

Get over yourself, no-one has put you in charge of how anyone (unemployed or otherwise) chooses to spend their money. What's worse is that you say you know how bad it feels to be unemployed but you're prepared to make someone in that situation feel worse.

 

[plarailfan]

Some people on Jobseekers are genuinely hard up and hand to mouth, but a kindly friend or relative might have a decent amount of disposable income to spare on treating the Jobseeker to concert tickets or other "luxuries" that many of us take for granted.
My middle aged neighbour has been on JSA for a few years, despite applying for work and Job vacancies. Her mum very kindly funds car insurance, MOT test, Gym membership and some household items. If her mum wasn't around for her, she would be having a very basic lifestyle and probably living on a diet of corned beef and chips !

 

[Merseysider]

I'd be inclined to answer yes to this question. One must prove one is continually looking for work in order to receive JSA and consequentially, the railcard. (Yes, there are those that play the system but that's a different issue).

The amount of money a jobseeker receives per week is roughly equivalent to ten hours work at minimum wage.

a) I wouldn't be surprised if certain jobseekers were tempted to avoid paying the fare in order to 'save' money. The railcard quite possibly inclines them to buy a ticket as the risk/reward ratio of fare dodging is effectively halved.

b) The JCP railcard may encourage jobseekers to get the train rather than other forms of transport. In both of the areas I've lived in recently; Merseyside and Manchester; the bus can often be a whole lot cheaper than the train for single or return journeys. For example, Liverpool to Chester on the number 1 bus is half the price you'd pay on the train. But with the discount, they may take to using the train instead.

c) Who among us has the right to say what the unemployed are entitled to? I personally have encountered a fair number of unpleasant people congregating at the Jobcentre (SFD and BKQ stations are opposite and round the corner from JCPs, respectively) but that doesn't mean we can tar all unemployed persons with the "lazy, good-for-nothing scrounger" brush.

 

[jimbo99]

As with most other railcards, it is a product that brings extra revenue to the rail network. From people who would otherwise not use trains due to the cost. The other 50% of a fare is not made up by the taxpayer. Just as the 34% reduction for other Railcards is also not subsidised by Joe Public.

If this analysis is correct - it is simply something of commercial advantage to the railway industry, then I don't have a problem with it. Many businesses, if they can, find mechanisms to charge more to people that are prepared (or can) pay more, whilst discounting to others. Hence targetted advertising or discounts for "concessions".

But the website does say:
The Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card is a Government programme that aims to give many unemployed people the help and support they need to get back into work, including preparing for work and training.

This suggests that there is some sort of subsidy and that the card is designed to be used for a particular purpose - even if there is in fact no subsidy or such restriction. The wording is far from promotional in style (as with other railcards).

In the circumstances I think the OP's question is reasonable and I don't see a high-horse issue.

 

[IanD]

If this analysis is correct - it is simply something of commercial advantage to the railway industry, then I don't have a problem with it. Many businesses, if they can, find mechanisms to charge more to people that are prepared (or can) pay more, whilst discounting to others. Hence targetted advertising or discounts for "concessions".

But the website does say:
The Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card is a Government programme that aims to give many unemployed people the help and support they need to get back into work, including preparing for work and training.

This suggests that there is some sort of subsidy and that the card is designed to be used for a particular purpose - even if there is in fact no subsidy or such restriction. The wording is far from promotional in style (as with other railcards).

In the circumstances I think the OP's question is reasonable and I don't see a high-horse issue.

Well, they're hardly going to advertise it as something that gives you cheap days out are they? Otherwise people like you and the OP will get on THEIR high horse about it (or in the OPs case stay firmly mounted on his/hers). I suppose to make sure the unemployed don't have any fun, it could have a flashing beacon and repeatedly make announcements along the lines of "Stand clear, unemployed person approaching!" the we'd all know there's an unentitled scrounger on the train.

 

[insidetrack77]

Once again I will say I haven't judged anyone. Like anyone in the industry, I do not begrudge money being spent on rail travel at a time when many of us may be trying to justify our jobs.

I do not disagree with jobseekers, or anyone else for that matter, taking all they are legally entitled to from the welfare state. I have not tarred jobseekers with any brush. All I have questioned is the name and purpose of the railcard, and the methods by which it is allocated.

I believe I have raised a legitimate concern in taking allocation of a railcard out of the hands of the TOCs, and by putting it under the control of a government department which has a sometimes patchy record on following due process.

And in relation to the leisure travel aspect, I understand the card does not restrict and if someone can get an enjoyable and cheap trip out of it, then good for them. But again I will say, this is the line where the card stops existing for the intended purpose of assisting in jobseeking and training.

I do not believe that the sole purpose of the card should be leisure journeys alone, and I will say categorically that I know someone who uses the card solely for this purpose - my brother, who has for the past five weeks shown more interest in exploring the West Highland line than looking for gainful employment.

Who am I to question this? Nobody of course, just the man who checks validity and issues the ticket. By the way have any of you actually seen the railcard, looked at it closely or held it? It is much the same as a season ticket photo identity card, fold-over plastic with validity stamped on it or written on by black biro.

But it does make me wonder why the opportunity for cheap leisure journeys is being afforded to jobseekers and not, say, minimum wage or zero hours contract workers who would surely benefit in a similar way.

 

[34D]

Okay then.

In mid July I plan to do Aberdeen-Penzance and back on flexible tickets.

I plan to resign from my job, get ESA, get this railcard, do my trip, then go back to work.

Does anyone see any issues with this? Is it more unethical than waiting until I'm 60, or more unethical than taking a friend with me?

 

[bnm]

But the website does say:
The Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card is a Government programme that aims to give many unemployed people the help and support they need to get back into work, including preparing for work and training.

This suggests that there is some sort of subsidy and that the card is designed to be used for a particular purpose - even if there is in fact no subsidy or such restriction. The wording is far from promotional in style (as with other railcards).

There is definitely no subsidy of fares. The FoI document I linked to in post #3 makes that clear.

13. No charge shall be levied against Jobcentre Plus in relation to the discounted fares provided by ATOC members.

JobcentrePlus just covers the costs of production and issue of JCP Railcards.

ATOC produce a leaflet as well, although I've never seen one. It is a little more promotional in style:

1/2 price travel for Jobseekers​

You can get 50% discount on selected fares on National Rail services in England and Wales and Transport for London services - if you qualify for help through Jobcentre Plus. All you need to do is check out details shown here and speak to your Personal Adviser. He/she will see if you are eligible and if you are, arrange for you to be issued with a Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card to get 1/2 price travel. That’s all there is to it.

Cardholders can get 50% discount on the following National Rail tickets:

 Standard Anytime & Anytime Day Singles & Returns
 Standard Off-Peak & Off-Peak Singles & Returns
 Standard Super Off-Peak & Super Off-Peak Day Singles & Returns
 Anytime Day and Off-Peak Day Travel Cards -when bought as part of a ticket to London from outside London Zones 1-9
 7 Day, monthly and longer period Season tickets (maximum 3 months)
 The Weekender

There is a separate scheme within Scotland. Please see your Personal Adviser for details.

Cardholders can also get discounts on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway London Buses and on Tramlink When travelling around London, you must get your discount set on an Oyster Card to get 50% discount on pay as you go adult rates,7 Day, monthly and longer period Travelcards and Bus & Tram season tickets (maximum 3 months).

Other Operators Discounts are also available on some local area special offers:

 Metro Rover- for bus and train journeys within West Yorkshire.
 Network One Ticket- for journeys within Tyne and Wear.

Your local jobcentre will provide details of additional operators who may recognise the photocard. Please ask your Personal Adviser for further information.

Season Tickets can save you more money

If you are regularly making the same journey a Season ticket may be the cheapest way of travelling. A Season ticket, Travelcard, Bus and Tram Pass or Zonal PTE ticket may be the cheapest way of travelling. These tickets are typically issued for one week (seven consecutive days) or any period from one month up to a maximum of 3 months. No ticket will be issued with an expiry date of later than that shown on the corresponding Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card. See Terms and Conditions for further details.

What fare reductions don’t you get? The Travel Discount Card does not give any discount on the following National Rail tickets:

 First Class tickets and accommodation, Advance tickets and special offer tickets, unless otherwise stated.
 Rover and Ranger Tickets.
 ScotRail Services, ScotRail Caledonian and First Great Western Sleeper services.
 Eurostar; Special Excursions and Charters.
 Rail Air Links (except between Heathrow and Reading).
 Most connecting Ship Ferry Links and Special Excursions & Charters.

About your Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card and how to get it- Cards are issued by Jobcentre Plus on behalf of the transport operators. You cannot obtain Travel Discount Cards from any station or travel agency. Your Personal Adviser will guide you through the process - offer you an application form and arrange the issue of the card.

How long is it valid for? - Up to 3 months at any one time. They may be issued for less time and there is no minimum time threshold. Subsequent cards may be issued, subject to not more than one card being held at one time. The period for which your card is valid will be decided by your Personal Adviser.

What if I lose it? - Replacement of a lost, stolen, defaced, illegible card is not available except in special circumstances. You should consult your Personal Adviser for more information.

For additional information always see your Personal Adviser.

Quite clear from that, that ATOC are not saying the tickets purchased with the JCP Railcard have to be used for a specific purpose.

 

[bnm]

Okay then.

In mid July I plan to do Aberdeen-Penzance and back on flexible tickets.

I plan to resign from my job, get ESA, get this railcard, do my trip, then go back to work.

Does anyone see any issues with this? Is it more unethical than waiting until I'm 60, or more unethical than taking a friend with me?

Plenty of issues with this.

First of all, you will not be eligible for Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) unless you are ill or disabled. You'd have to make a claim for Jobseekers Allowance (JSA).

Second, if you do somehow manage to get ESA, you need to be actively engaged with a Personal Adviser before you can ask for a JCP Railcard. This engagement won't begin until you've had your Work Capability Assessment (WCA) sometime during the first 13 weeks of your claim. My first Adviser appointment was some two months after my WCA, which was a further two months after I made my claim.

Third, if you resign from a job you will not be eligible for Jobseekers Allowance (JSA) for up to 26 weeks unless you can prove constructive dismissal.

Fourth, if you do somehow manage to get JSA from day one after quitting a job, you will not be eligible for a JCP Railcard until you have been unemployed for six months.

Still want to hand in your notice?

 

[plarailfan]

Okay then.

In mid July I plan to do Aberdeen-Penzance and back on flexible tickets.

I plan to resign from my job, get ESA, get this railcard, do my trip, then go back to work.

Does anyone see any issues with this? Is it more unethical than waiting until I'm 60, or more unethical than taking a friend with me?

I don't doubt that this type of scenario does happen from time to time.
I should think it is probably a risky strategy and a lot of effort to obtain the railcard by this means.
I was made redundant a few years ago, from a quite well paid Job and my local Jobcentre gave me a bus pass that enabled me to pay half fare, for bus and rail travel, but it was only valid in West Yorkshire.
After a while, I did manage to find a job, but the money isn't all that great and I do wish I was still entitled to this half fare pass as it would help my hard earned cash go a bit further

 

[bnm]

I don't doubt that this type of scenario does happen from time to time.

It can't happen for all the reasons outlined in my previous post.

 

[harry42]

After a while, I did manage to find a job, but the money isn't all that great and I do wish I was still entitled to this half fare pass as it would help my hard earned cash go a bit further

A lot of people are better off not working, unfortunately.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You have a railcard you get the discount applied I am not a judge, jury or executioner. Yes people play the system, thats life! But the vast Majority don't I am lucky I am in a very good job I have no disibilaties and feel that I am fortunate that I haven't long may that continue