Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

[Tetchytyke]

Train? Not on my bus pass.

ENCTS is valid on Metro, although there is a small fee charged if you live outside Tyne and Wear.

 

[AM9]

... And I struggle to get a seat on the way home because the peak time Metros are full of OAPs coming home from the shops.

That's not the first time such a comment has been made in this thread. Just how is it that these geriatric citizens get all the seats before the younger and (presumably) fitter working age passengers. Do they jump the queue at the stop or just push past the tired and worn out millworkers who stagger up the gangway?

 

[Tetchytyke]

TJust how is it that these geriatric citizens get all the seats before the younger and (presumably) fitter working age passengers.

Because most people, regardless of how annoyed they are at having to pay for others to travel for free, are actually decent enough to stand up for an older person?

 

[HH]

Because most people, regardless of how annoyed they are at having to pay for others to travel for free, are actually decent enough to stand up for an older person?

Not in my experience; a minority offer seats even to clearly pregnant women or the disabled. Maybe it's different up your way.

TBH I think it would be fairer to offer these benefits to only those who need them; the reason this doesn't happen is that the money saved on benefits would instead go on running the mean's tests.

Also I think you're naive if you think that local government would spend money on different buses if they could get away with not funding some of the existing - services are being slashed all round; something else would get the money instead.

 

[urbophile]

I'm 65, don't live in, but do work in London, am still working; I've just received an Essex bus pass.

TBH I don't need it and will hardly use it, there being very few buses where I live.

But if you work in London you can use it there (or anywhere in England).

Free travel for the over 60s/65s/70s whatever is a bit illogical I agree, if we don't give the same entitlement to other groups arguably in more need, like job-seekers. But anything that entices people off crowded roads and out of polluting cars is a good thing as I see it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not in my experience; a minority offer seats even to clearly pregnant women or the disabled. Maybe it's different up your way.

I think we're a friendlier lot.

I wouldn't leave someone standing up just because I'd paid, anyway.

TBH I think it would be fairer to offer these benefits to only those who need them; the reason this doesn't happen is that the money saved on benefits would instead go on running the mean's tests.

Means testing the pass isn't really an option, unless you used a blunt means test like being eligible for certain benefits (e.g. pension credit). As you say, the money you'd save would just pay for the means test, not to mention the number of people who won't apply for means tested things.

I think the old system of heavily discounted travel worked fine. A child's all day ticket in Tyne and Wear (only available to children who live in Tyne and Wear) costs £1.10. Something similar to that for OAPs would take huge pressure off council budgets but wouldn't price people off public transport.

Also I think you're naive if you think that local government would spend money on different buses if they could get away with not funding some of the existing - services are being slashed all round; something else would get the money instead.

The ENCTS money might not get spent on socially necessary bus journeys, but it'd get spent on something (libraries, swimming pools, street cleaning) that would otherwise get cut. I don't see an issue with that.

 

[AM9]

I think we're a friendlier lot.

I wouldn't leave someone standing up just because I'd paid, anyway.



Means testing the pass isn't really an option, unless you used a blunt means test like being eligible for certain benefits (e.g. pension credit). As you say, the money you'd save would just pay for the means test, not to mention the number of people who won't apply for means tested things.

I think the old system of heavily discounted travel worked fine. A child's all day ticket in Tyne and Wear (only available to children who live in Tyne and Wear) costs £1.10. Something similar to that for OAPs would take huge pressure off council budgets but wouldn't price people off public transport.



The ENCTS money might not get spent on socially necessary bus journeys, but it'd get spent on something (libraries, swimming pools, street cleaning) that would otherwise get cut. I don't see an issue with that.

If councils were relieved of their obligation to fund ENCTS travel, the government (certainly this government) would reduce the local government finance settlement amount, so no opportunities to reallocated money not there then.

 

[HH]

But if you work in London you can use it there (or anywhere in England).

Buses are good in London, but they very rarely go where I do! I think I've caught 3 buses in the last 9 months and they already cost a small amount, as I use PAYG (my last journey was free, for example, as I'd reached the cap).

I'm sure some people get a lot of use out the passes though. Generally I'd think it was a good thing - routes are kept open and an active OAP is less likely to be a sick OAP, at much greater cost. It's a bit unfair that Philip Green gets one, but I somehow doubt that he uses it...

 

[anti-pacer]

I don't agree with free travel for OAP's. I appreciate plenty only live in state pensions but plenty don't. Unemployed people have to pay!

 

[HH]

I don't agree with free travel for OAP's. I appreciate plenty only live in state pensions but plenty don't. Unemployed people have to pay!

That might seem to suggest that unemployed people shouldn't, rather than that OAPs should. P.S. Abellio were supposed to be handing out free tickets to unemployed in Scotland IIRC.

It perhaps makes more sense to give free discount cards to all these groups (and extend that to rail too maybe) rather than free passes.

 

[trainophile]

I'm 65, don't live in, but do work in London, am still working; I've just received an Essex bus pass.

TBH I don't need it and will hardly use it, there being very few buses where I live. I can see that people who live in London though are in a very different situation.

Having looked at the economics of bus companies though, be careful about wishing those free bus passes away - without them many bus routes would be removed; they're the only thing that makes them worth running!

Did you not have to apply for your bus pass? Did it just turn up? In my area you have to apply and supply a recent mugshot.

 

[HH]

Did you not have to apply for your bus pass? Did it just turn up? In my area you have to apply and supply a recent mugshot.

Yes; you can get it from when you reach female retirement age. My wife finally 'persuaded' me... (and the mugshot can now be uploaded online).

 

[trainophile]

Yes; you can get it from when you reach female retirement age. My wife finally 'persuaded' me... (and the mugshot can now be uploaded online).

I understand that, I've got one myself. I just wondered why you got one when you don't think you would use it, but if your wife encouraged you then that explains it. She probably wants someone to help her carry her shopping home!

 

[Busaholic]

This has nothing to do with concessionary travel - which, like Winter Fuel Payments, should be subject to a means test.

Winter Fuel Payments are sent automatically to all those who qualify, including many thousands who no longer live in the UK. Concessionary travel passes to those who qualify are not issued unless applied for: moreover, many who possess such passes hardly ever use them, in fact some may never do so. The age for qualification rises inexorably in line with female state pension age, such that fewer people actually hold passes on the basis of their age each year, as the average age of death has not increased to the same extent. If the bus pass were to be means tested, who would do this and, more important, how would it be paid for? I can't answer the first part of that question, but I can have an educated guess at the answer to the second question : it would come out of the same pot of money that provides reimbursement to bus operators for pass use, which in practice is ever-decreasing at national levels, and could actually subsume the whole of the disbursement. That is why it is a ludicrous idea, which Nick Clegg and his LibDem cohorts should be ashamed of for continually banging on about when they so briefly enjoyed the fruits of power.

By the way, and just in case there's a suspicion of special pleading, I use my bus pass on fewer than ten days per year on average, and my income is such that I pay no income tax.
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It's a bit unfair that Philip Green gets one, but I somehow doubt that he uses it...

I believe he is a 'non dom' and, so far as I am aware, they are not issued to citizens of Monaco. Perhaps he has a qualifying address in Hartlepool

 

[Llanigraham]

By the way, and just in case there's a suspicion of special pleading, I use my bus pass on fewer than ten days per year on average, and my income is such that I pay no income tax.

Join the Club!!
I find my Pass is used more to prove I'm a "coffin dodger" at other places that offer an age related discount!

Oh, I'll be using mine tomorrow to go to Aberystwyth.

 

[urbophile]

Surely the tax system acts as a 'means test' in itself? If some people have incomes which mean they don't need perks like the bus pass, they will, or should, be taxed sufficiently to pay for them. If people aren't receiving enough to be liable for income tax, then of course they need and deserve the bus pass and anything else going.

As of course do other people besides OAPs who are struggling financially. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man or politicians to do something about it.

 

[fowler9]

Surely the tax system acts as a 'means test' in itself? If some people have incomes which mean they don't need perks like the bus pass, they will, or should, be taxed sufficiently to pay for them. If people aren't receiving enough to be liable for income tax, then of course they need and deserve the bus pass and anything else going.

As of course do other people besides OAPs who are struggling financially. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man or politicians to do something about it.

It is of course beyond the wit of men and politicians because some don't like paying a penny that they don't perceive as benefiting them directly. It is of course beyond their wit that it may be benefiting them indirectly. There is no society (Or some such bo**ocks).

 

[AM9]

Winter Fuel Payments are sent automatically to all those who qualify, including many thousands who no longer live in the UK. Concessionary travel passes to those who qualify are not issued unless applied for: moreover, many who possess such passes hardly ever use them, in fact some may never do so. The age for qualification rises inexorably in line with female state pension age, such that fewer people actually hold passes on the basis of their age each year, as the average age of death has not increased to the same extent. If the bus pass were to be means tested, who would do this and, more important, how would it be paid for? I can't answer the first part of that question, but I can have an educated guess at the answer to the second question : it would come out of the same pot of money that provides reimbursement to bus operators for pass use, which in practice is ever-decreasing at national levels, and could actually subsume the whole of the disbursement. That is why it is a ludicrous idea, which Nick Clegg and his LibDem cohorts should be ashamed of for continually banging on about when they so briefly enjoyed the fruits of power.

By the way, and just in case there's a suspicion of special pleading, I use my bus pass on fewer than ten days per year on average, and my income is such that I pay no income tax.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I believe he is a 'non dom' and, so far as I am aware, they are not issued to citizens of Monaco. Perhaps he has a qualifying address in Hartlepool

So if many bus passes that have been issued are rarely used, then other than the cost of producing and issuing them, there is no ongoing cost to the issuers. Why worry if millionaires have them if they don't use them?
Does anybody here know just how much it costs to issue a picture smart card in volume?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That might seem to suggest that unemployed people shouldn't, rather than that OAPs should. P.S. Abellio were supposed to be handing out free tickets to unemployed in Scotland IIRC.

It perhaps makes more sense to give free discount cards to all these groups (and extend that to rail too maybe) rather than free passes.

The problem with unemployed people having bus passes is that their employment status should be temporary whereas anybody who reaches retirement age is unlikely get younger again. So the card issuing and its use would need to be regularly checked against their joblessness.

 

[fowler9]

So if many bus passes that have been issued are rarely used, then other than the cost of producing and issuing them, there is no ongoing cost to the issuers. Why worry if millionaires have them if they don't use them?
Does anybody here know just how much it costs to issue a picture smart card in volume?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The problem with unemployed people having bus passes is that their employment status should be temporary whereas anybody who reaches retirement age is unlikely get younger again. So the card issuing and its use would need to be regularly checked against their joblessness.

Surely if done on a Smart card system it would be easy to turn it on or off?

 

[lobby ludd]

Winter Fuel Payments are sent automatically to all those who qualify, including many thousands who no longer live in the UK. Concessionary travel passes to those who qualify are not issued unless applied for: moreover, many who possess such passes hardly ever use them, in fact some may never do so. The age for qualification rises inexorably in line with female state pension age, such that fewer people actually hold passes on the basis of their age each year, as the average age of death has not increased to the same extent. If the bus pass were to be means tested, who would do this and, more important, how would it be paid for? I can't answer the first part of that question, but I can have an educated guess at the answer to the second question : it would come out of the same pot of money that provides reimbursement to bus operators for pass use, which in practice is ever-decreasing at national levels, and could actually subsume the whole of the disbursement. That is why it is a ludicrous idea, which Nick Clegg and his LibDem cohorts should be ashamed of for continually banging on about when they so briefly enjoyed the fruits of power.

By the way, and just in case there's a suspicion of special pleading, I use my bus pass on fewer than ten days per year on average, and my income is such that I pay no income tax.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I believe he is a 'non dom' and, so far as I am aware, they are not issued to citizens of Monaco. Perhaps he has a qualifying address in Hartlepool

'The age for qualification rises inexorably in line with female state pension age'. Er......NO it doesn't. The age is 60 in London, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and other places (Wales ?, Manchester ?, Liverpool ?).

We don't have a national system. Not only does the age vary, but also what is covered. Trains and some ferries (Northern Ireland), buses and some rail lines (Wales), trains, buses and ferries (Merseyside), trains, buses and trams (Manchester), trains (Metro), buses and ferries (Tyneside), trains, buses and trams (London), trams and buses (Blackpool), trams and buses (South Yorkshire), ferries and buses (some Scottish islands and peninsulas), trams and buses (Edinburgh).

I might have made an error or two in that list, but have no doubt left out other variations on the 'English National bus pass'.

Anyone care to compile a comprehensive national list ?

 

[Llanigraham]

Does anybody here know just how much it costs to issue a picture smart card in volume?

When we produced them for a Club, less than 10p, but that wasn't pricing in the time to sort out the pictures that had been sent in!!

 

[AlterEgo]

'The age for qualification rises inexorably in line with female state pension age'. Er......NO it doesn't. The age is 60 in London, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and other places (Wales ?, Manchester ?, Liverpool ?).

We don't have a national system. Not only does the age vary, but also what is covered. Trains and some ferries (Northern Ireland), buses and some rail lines (Wales), trains, buses and ferries (Merseyside), trains, buses and trams (Manchester), trains (Metro), buses and ferries (Tyneside), trains, buses and trams (London), trams and buses (Blackpool), trams and buses (South Yorkshire), ferries and buses (some Scottish islands and peninsulas), trams and buses (Edinburgh).

I might have made an error or two in that list, but have no doubt left out other variations on the 'English National bus pass'.

Anyone care to compile a comprehensive national list ?

In Surrey the limit is the female state pension age. It is the same in most places in England.

It only illustrates how fractured the system is!

 

[Deafdoggie]

When we produced them for a Club, less than 10p, but that wasn't pricing in the time to sort out the pictures that had been sent in!!

It does depend on the programming. At work, we issue them nationally, issued with a photo on, and fully programmed smart technology, they cost just over £5 each. Which is why most places charge £5 to replace a lost one.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

On the flip side, why should someone who has a disability get free travel?
Remember, not everyone who is disabled is wheelchair bound. I would go as far as saying the majority of people who are disabled aren't wheelchair bound.
Plus, let's face it, a lot of disabled people already get lots of benefits anyway!

to get an ENCTS disability pass you either

1. qualify for higher rate mobility in PIP or War pension

2. are medically disqualified from holding a driving licence

so yes a lot of disability pass holding travellers aren;t wheelcahir bound - they are partial sighted, have seizure disorders which aren;t well copntrolled to get a driving licence or are on other medication which medically disqualifies them

 

[Railops]

I never knew that being disabled automatically made you poor, why should my millionaire neighbour get free travel because he's supposedly disabled.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I never knew that being disabled automatically made you poor, why should my millionaire neighbour get free travel because he's supposedly disabled.

are you deliberately trolling ?

http://www.poverty.org.uk/40/index.shtml

 

[lobby ludd]

'It is the same (women's pension age) in most places in England'.
Yes, but not in London, Merseyside, or Greater Manchester (all 60).
Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland also all issue passes at 6O (who is paying for this generous treatment of the Celts ?).

 

[AlterEgo]

'It is the same (women's pension age) in most places in England'.
Yes, but not in London, Merseyside, or Greater Manchester (all 60).
Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland also all issue passes at 6O (who is paying for this generous treatment of the Celts ?).

Central government, but it comes from a much larger multi purpose fund and councils are able to choose how they use that funding. So while the money comes from all UK taxpayers, local councils must decide how to spend that block grant (meaning they have to decide on funding priorities).

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland also all issue passes at 6O (who is paying for this generous treatment of the Celts ?).

thanks to the unique way England funds Scotland ...

 

[Wolfie]

'The age for qualification rises inexorably in line with female state pension age'. Er......NO it doesn't. The age is 60 in London, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and other places (Wales ?, Manchester ?, Liverpool ?).

We don't have a national system. Not only does the age vary, but also what is covered. Trains and some ferries (Northern Ireland), buses and some rail lines (Wales), trains, buses and ferries (Merseyside), trains, buses and trams (Manchester), trains (Metro), buses and ferries (Tyneside), trains, buses and trams (London), trams and buses (Blackpool), trams and buses (South Yorkshire), ferries and buses (some Scottish islands and peninsulas), trams and buses (Edinburgh).

I might have made an error or two in that list, but have no doubt left out other variations on the 'English National bus pass'.

Anyone care to compile a comprehensive national list ?

My bold

With respect to London you are right and wrong...

The Freedom Pass, which constitutes an ENCTS pass, is issued to those at the qualifying age (ie female retirement age).

However, on a discretionary basis (ie it could be withdrawn), London residents over 60 are issued with a "60+ London Oyster photocard" which is valid only in London and subject to a £20 admin fee - see:
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/60-london-oyster?intcmp=1763