Should Oxford have a tramway?

[Bletchleyite]

The LTN thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/oxford-low-traffic-neighbourhood.247180/#post-6178606 discusses the issues of excessive car use for local journeys in Oxford, with the LTN concept being a stick with regard to that traffic.

But what about a carrot? While Oxford does have an excellent bus service by UK standards, could a tramway make sense? The layout of the city other than Blackbird Leys and its surrounds is oddly linear down only a few corridors, so it could be done with only a few routes which would be well-used.

 

[Nicholas43]

Trams are feasible only if they have dedicated tracks (including repurposed heavy rail lines), or the centre of enormous boulevards, or if they mix it with other vehicles on lightly-used roads.
None of that applies to Woodstock Road, Banbury Road, and Abingdon Road in Oxford.
(Alas - I'm just back from loving the trams in Bonn and Freiburg im Breisgau)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trams are feasible only if they have dedicated tracks (including repurposed heavy rail lines), or the centre of enormous boulevards, or if they mix it with other vehicles on lightly used roads.
None of that applies to Woodstock Road, Banbury Road, and Abingdon Road in Oxford.
(Alas - I'm just back from loving the trams in Bonn and Freiburg im Breisgau)

My thought is that with trams those roads would become less used. There's no reason for any through traffic to go through the centre of Oxford as it has a full ring road, so you'd be looking to transfer much of that traffic to the trams.

 

[edwin_m]

I hardly know Oxford, but the several issues typically arise when considering trams in a city of this type:

• Even if through and visiting traffic can be kept outside the ring road, there's a lot of housing within it that will generate car and delivery traffic.
• What are the parking restrictions on the roads in question? If it's tidal part time bus lanes with parking at other times then that probably won't work for trams.
• If premises on the routes don't have off-street delivery then there needs to be enough space for dedicated delivery bays.

And recalling discussions on Cambridge, a reminder that trams, narrow streets and hordes of cyclists don't mix.

 

[JamesT]

My thought is that with trams those roads would become less used. There's no reason for any through traffic to go through the centre of Oxford as it has a full ring road, so you'd be looking to transfer much of that traffic to the trams.

Hopefully the traffic filters if they're ever implemented will cut out the through traffic. But the major roads will still be needed for access, especially with the LTNs preventing running between the major roads.
Many of the bus routes run beyond the limits of Oxford, so would you have the trams in addition to the existing buses, or force changes at the extremities of the tram network?
Lastly, there will be a lot of resistance to putting up wiring on the historic city centre.

I would prefer to see if bus filters can cut out the congestion that the promised fleet of electric buses can then increase frequency at least back up to where it used to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And recalling discussions on Cambridge, a reminder that trams, narrow streets and hordes of cyclists don't mix.

Despite the two cities being economically similar, Oxford suffers far less from narrow streets than Cambridge, with some wide boulevards, particularly the pedestrianised bit where trams might go as they have in other cities.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Trams are feasible only if they have dedicated tracks (including repurposed heavy rail lines), or the centre of enormous boulevards, or if they mix it with other vehicles on lightly used roads.
None of that applies to Woodstock Road, Banbury Road, and Abingdon Road in Oxford.
(Alas - I'm just back from loving the trams in Bonn and Freiburg im Breisgau)

This is a bit of a myth. With a bit of thought you can use things like signal priority to minimise the impact of other traffic. Obviously if you have room to fully segregate then you should, but it isn't necessarily a deal-breaker if you can't.

Getting people out of their cars does need a bit of carrot and stick, but the stick without the carrot will just alienate people... and the stick won't work if the donkey can't see the carrot.

 

[Nicholas43]

Despite the two cities being economically similar, Oxford suffers far less from narrow streets than Cambridge, with some wide boulevards, particularly the pedestrianised bit where trams might go as they have in other cities.

The only pedestrian street is Cornmarket. It is, just, wide enough for two lanes of vehicles (and was horrendous when buses used it in both directions). St Giles is wide enough for trams, but is currently sacred to the parked car. St Aldates copes with buses in both directions, and lots of bus stops. It could not cope with trams and buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only pedestrian street is Cornmarket. It is, just, wide enough for two lanes of vehicles (and was horrendous when buses used it in both directions). St Giles is wide enough for trams, but is currently sacred to the parked car. St Aldates copes with buses in both directions, and lots of bus stops. It could not cope with trams and buses.

With trams, Oxford would mostly only require the regional buses and coaches from Gloucester Green - the shape of the city means only a couple of local bus routes would remain needed.

It's not quite beads on a string, but its shape is such that only a very few tram routes would get excellent coverage.

 

[PTR 444]

Woodstock Road and Banbury Road are pretty much parallel to each other from Oxford City Centre to the A40. Could an arrangement be made where these two roads are made into a one-way gyratory with 1-2 lanes for private vehicles and another for buses and trams?

 

[Nicholas43]

... you can use things like signal priority to minimise the impact of other traffic.

For example, where, now?

 

[edwin_m]

This is a bit of a myth. With a bit of thought you can use things like signal priority to minimise the impact of other traffic. Obviously if you have room to fully segregate then you should, but it isn't necessarily a deal-breaker if you can't.

Getting people out of their cars does need a bit of carrot and stick, but the stick without the carrot will just alienate people... and the stick won't work if the donkey can't see the carrot.

Signal priority helps at intersections where the tramway crosses a traffic route. But not so much if it has to share a lane with anything more than a few buses and vehicles accessing premises.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For example, where, now?

Plenty of cities across Europe. Even Prague, which isn't exactly Amsterdam when it comes to discouraging car use. Or if you want something closer to home, the Eccles line of Metrolink doesn't do too bad despite having a fair bit of shared use alignment.

At risk of overlap with the Low Traffic Neighbourhood thread, Oxford is the sort of city where I expect there would be a fair amount of support for a tram network... providing that the "carrot" of clean modern frequent transport is in place before you start with the "stick" of plonking bollards down under cover of darkness.

 

[Nottingham59]

could a tramway make sense?

In my book, whenever the question is trams, the answer is battery trolleybuses. All the advantages of trams, but much cheaper to install; more flexible; and much less susceptible to getting blocked in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my book, whenever the question is trams, the answer is battery trolleybuses. All the advantages of trams, but much cheaper to install; more flexible; and much less susceptible to getting blocked in.

Except capacity with one driver and quality of environment.

Even the best bus in the world that's had the full Best Impressions interior isn't going to be as nice to ride in, overall, as even the most basic old tram. The tram is just smoother and more pleasant overall. I have joked about the new Merseytravel buses being nicer inside than the 777 (and they probably are), but even with the lousy seats I'd still pick the train.

 

[Nottingham59]

Except capacity

Capacity looks fine to me.

The tram is just smoother and more pleasant overall.

It's a lot cheaper to smooth out the road surface than lay tram tracks.

The only benefit of installing a tram system, is that it brings in a huge amount of money into the local economy through central government funding being spent on local civil engineering projects. The experience in Nottingham is that the tram system, as a system, is much less reliable than the bus system. When a tram sits down in the Market Square, the whole network is gone for the day.

Failed NET tram 230 just outside Old Market Square

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't believe double artics are permitted in the UK. But even if they were, one of those has roughly half the capacity of an M5000 double set (for example), and a double M5000 isn't the longest permitted tram in the UK, the Edinburgh ones are longer.

Plus people love trams and most people hate buses. Part of that is because most UK buses are badly run (people don't hate buses in Edinburgh which has never been through that), but that's a hard nut to crack.

It's a lot cheaper to smooth out the road surface than lay tram tracks.

How are those Pacers going?

Rail vehicles are smoother than road vehicles because they have bogies*. OK, to be fair, a double-axled bus is smoother at the back than a single-axled one, but even the Cambridgeshire busway is getting a decidedly "nodding donkey" feel to it in places.

* Yes, I know, Talgo, but those would ride like a cart (or Pacer) on British track too.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

A tramway for Oxford sounds like a nice idea, however my opinion is that the city is too small to justify the costs and expenses of building a tram.

What would work best imo is the 400 bus route (Harcourt Hill - Seacourt P&R - Railway Station - City Centre - Oxford Brookes University - Headington - Thornhill P&R - Wheatley) being run by articulated or double articulated trolleybuses like the Van Hool Exquicity or the Solaris Trollino Metrostyle. And then if extra capacity is needed, upgrade to a full tramway.

Excellent bus service by UK standards

Excellent? Hahaha not a chance. Granted, the buses do have amazing liveries and the routes are frequent but the routes are inefficient using completely unsuitable single door buses which unnecessarily increase journey times on busy key city routes like the 1 / city5 (Rail Station - Blackbird Leys), 400 (Harcourt Hill - Wheatley), city 8 (Westgate - Barton) & city X3 (Barton - Abingdon via JR & City). Now before a certain someone who I won't name comes here, I'm not saying all routes in Oxford need dual door buses (the S routes like the S2 and S4 are perfectly fine being single door) but I'm a regular user of Oxford's busy city bus routes and they would certainly benefit from dual doors.

And yes, before you start commenting, I am aware about the Euro 3 Mercedes Citaros (840-847). The problem is that they are single decker and won't work on busy city bus routes. They need to be dual door double deckers - ideally a Scania N280UD ADL Enviro400 City CNG like what Reading and Bristol Metrobus has.

The only pedestrian street is Cornmarket. It is, just, wide enough for two lanes of vehicles (and was horrendous when buses used it in both directions). St Giles is wide enough for trams, but is currently sacred to the parked car. St Aldates copes with buses in both directions, and lots of bus stops. It could not cope with trams and buses.

High Street around Queens Lane bus stops is wide enough to be able to accommodate trams, the problem about Oxford is that the city is too small to justify a network. In fact, by size, I wouldn't even call it a city - much more like a large town!

If anything, Bristol is a city in the UK that absolutely needs a tram network, and is big enough to justify one, seeing that Bristol's population is about roughly 470k unlike Oxford which is just about 150k. Put it simply, Bristol's population is 3 times the size of Oxford, and doesn't even have a tram network, which similar sized cities in the UK like Nottingham or Sheffield do.

 

[didcotdean]

The Oxford Civic Society a few years ago suggested a network of gondola lifts. If I remember correctly one was Seacourt Park and Ride to the upper floor of the Westgate Shopping Centre and the other was Thornhill Park and Ride to the Headington Hospitals. Actual details though were scant.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Oxford Civic Society a few years ago suggested a network of gondola lifts. If I remember correctly one was Seacourt Park and Ride to the upper floor of the Westgate Shopping Centre and the other was Thornhill Park and Ride to the Headington Hospitals. Actual details though were scant.

That smells suspiciously like a Gadgetbahn... and one even dafter than the "Autonomous Metro" that was proposed for the rival University city.

 

[Falcon1200]

A tramway for Oxford sounds like a nice idea, however my opinion is that the city is too small to justify the costs and expenses of building a tram.

Much as I would love to see trams in Oxford (and after all, we had them before!) I agree that the city, and therefore its traffic flows, are far too small to justify the cost.

 

[Nicholas43]

That smells suspiciously like a Gadgetbahn...

Not quite: a Dangelbahn ...

 

[fishwomp]

The Oxford Civic Society a few years ago suggested a network of gondola lifts.

Punt lifts surely?

A tramway for Oxford sounds like a nice idea, however my opinion is that the city is too small to justify the costs and expenses of building a tram.
[..]
High Street around Queens Lane bus stops is wide enough to be able to accommodate trams, the problem about Oxford is that the city is too small to justify a network. In fact, by size, I wouldn't even call it a city - much more like a large town!

Yup. There are cheaper ways to improve the traffic situation.
a) reopen Cowley branch - 4 tracks from Kennington Jt to Oxford
b) station at Redbridge park and ride off the Cowley branch.

Journey time plus walk to city from station would be pretty good compared to anything else for peak time.

Of course also:

c) open a station at Oxford Parkway. Already done!

 

[The Planner]

Punt lifts surely?


Yup. There are cheaper ways to improve the traffic situation.
a) reopen Cowley branch - 4 tracks from Kennington Jt to Oxford
b) station at Redbridge park and ride off the Cowley branch.

Journey time plus walk to city from station would be pretty good compared to anything else for peak time.

Of course also:

c) open a station at Oxford Parkway. Already done!

Redbridge is north of Kennington Jn, it would be on the main line.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Punt lifts surely?


Yup. There are cheaper ways to improve the traffic situation.
a) reopen Cowley branch - 4 tracks from Kennington Jt to Oxford
b) station at Redbridge park and ride off the Cowley branch.

Journey time plus walk to city from station would be pretty good compared to anything else for peak time.

Of course also:

c) open a station at Oxford Parkway. Already done!

With a) I agree except that if you are going to extend the current Chiltern Railways service from London Marylebone, you are going to need to completely rebuild Oxford Railway Station in order to allow platforms 1 & 2 to become through platforms.

b) Good idea, although I'm also of the opinion of having another station in the Cowley-Blackbird Leys area. Certainly useful for match days!

I also wonder what @BrianW and @Parebunks have to say seeing that the two of them also live in Oxford just like me!

 

[JamesT]

With a) I agree except that if you are going to extend the current Chiltern Railways service from London Marylebone, you are going to need to completely rebuild Oxford Railway Station in order to allow platforms 1 & 2 to become through platforms.

b) Good idea, although I'm also of the opinion of having another station in the Cowley-Blackbird Leys area. Certainly useful for match days!

I also wonder what @BrianW and @Parebunks have to say seeing that the two of them also live in Oxford just like me!

Making Platform 2 Through is part of the ‘master plan’. Though Network Rail claim the current works are sufficient for future services in the short term, which is just adding another through platform 5.

I believe the current proposals for the Cowley branch are a station for the science park and one for the business park behind Tesco. By the time any trains run then United would have left the Kassam.

 

[fishwomp]

Redbridge is north of Kennington Jn, it would be on the main line.

It is, but if you have 4-track at that point, it can be before crossovers - eg. west-most pair of lines for London, east-most for Cowley.

With a) I agree except that if you are going to extend the current Chiltern Railways service from London Marylebone, you are going to need to completely rebuild Oxford Railway Station in order to allow platforms 1 & 2 to become through platforms.

.. which would be helped by segregating the pair of tracks even further - all the way up to the Oxford station. A separate platform in the Becket St car park would be fine, and a shuttle back-n-forth all day - it doesn't have to go to Marylebone, lovely though through trains are!

 

[Parebunks]

I also wonder what @BrianW and @Parebunks have to say seeing that the two of them also live in Oxford just like me!

Oo, I've been summoned, how exciting. I do think trams could have a role to play in Oxford, but in very limited cases - namely the Cowley and London roads, where most/all of the bus traffic stays within the city, unlike other corridors where interurban routes also have local functions. I don't think the Cowley branch is particularly promising at all for reducing stress on the current transport system - it doesn't really do the same 'job' as any current bus routes, which mostly have Templars Square and Cowley Road as key traffic drivers, and I suspect the primary traffic flow would be to and from London. My proposal would be something like the attached - two tram lines (orange) on those corridors, with the current bus overcrowding problem in the city centre reduced by joining routes up across to give a 'tram-like' arrangement, where routes have a high-frequency central core and lower-frequency rural feeders. You'd definitely need multiple door buses to make this work at its maximum efficiency and (assuming it all stays electric), you could even put trolleybus wires up along the main routes in the city. This would then allow the near-total pedestrianization of several important corridors - trams only from the station to the Plain, the Plain to Manzil Way, and South Park to Brookes, with the London and airports coaches routed along Marston Ferry Road to Gloucester Green. Totally unrealistic, of course, but I can dream!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I don't think the Cowley branch is particularly promising at all for reducing stress on the current transport system - it doesn't really do the same 'job' as any current bus routes, which mostly have Templars Square and Cowley Road as key traffic drivers, and I suspect the primary traffic flow would be to and from London. My proposal would be something like the attached - two tram lines (orange) on those corridors, with the current bus overcrowding problem in the city centre reduced by joining routes up across to give a 'tram-like' arrangement, where routes have a high-frequency central core and lower-frequency rural feeders.

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you said, the branch can still be useful for the few days a year when there's a football match at Kassam Stadium! Whether you should spend all the money for let's say 10-15 trains a year is a completely different matter.

Also I like your proposal. Cowley Road and Headington Road certainly are busy corridors, absolutely, however, I think at the moment it's best to start with an electric bendy trolleybus (or even 24m double bendy trolleybus like what they have in some Swiss cities). Then when capacity has reached at its limit only then does the cost justify installing a tram network (think about it a bit like in London with the Central Line and Crossrail - initially only the Central Line was built, but as soon as capacity on the Central Line reached its limit necessitating an extra line, then Crossrail was built)

Also, pedestrianizing Cowley Road a bit can be a good idea imo - it's not an important corridor for car traffic unlike the Iffley Road (which ultimately is useful for driving to southern destinations on the A34 like Newbury or Winchester) or the Headington Road (which ultimately leads to London and other eastern destinations). I'd say The Plain to Manzil Way makes the most sense.

 

[Bartsimho]

The only benefit of installing a tram system, is that it brings in a huge amount of money into the local economy through central government funding being spent on local civil engineering projects. The experience in Nottingham is that the tram system, as a system, is much less reliable than the bus system. When a tram sits down in the Market Square, the whole network is gone for the day.

Failed NET tram 230 just outside Old Market Square

Ok as a thing it does not destroy the entire network for a day. Trams would run to the stop before the blockage and even here in the middle of the city that's fine as you don't have cross city bus routes as all are aimed at the centre. Here it is an 8 minute walk. The only time it causes real issues is if a branch is cut off from the central core but even then it isn't the whole traffic flow which is having the issue.