Should rail fares prohibit break of journey?

[6Gman]

How about full demand based pricing down to the time of departure with compulsory reservations on InterCity flows then?

So not content with stopping me from breaking my journey you now want to stop me standing from Wigan to Warrington?

 

[tomuk]

So not content with stopping me from breaking my journey you now want to stop me standing from Wigan to Warrington?

Well it was Yorkie who said

if the prices don't differentiate between differing levels of demand, then it is inevitable that some trains will be overcrowded while others will be dead. That's just not sensible.

You could always take the 360/22a bus

 

[Trainbike46]

Well it was Yorkie who said


You could always take the 360/22a bus

But you are the one who suggested making reservations compulsory for IC flows, which just adds to the long list of suggestions you made to make train travel less convenient for no clear reason?

I know you say you want to simplify things, but I really fail to see how any of your suggestions come even remotely close to achieving that!

 

[David Goddard]

No, rail fares should not prohibit break of journey, and to add to this with an Advance the customer should be able to choose the services for each leg of their journey, so if they need a longer break in an interchange station en route (for personal needs or otherwise).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, rail fares should not prohibit break of journey, and to add to this with an Advance the customer should be able to choose the services for each leg of their journey, so if they need a longer break in an interchange station en route (for personal needs or otherwise).

Trainsplit will do that for you, though technically unless the ticket actually splits you can't leave the station. In the real world however nobody will stop you provided you use the booked trains.

 

[lyndhurst25]

My car doesn’t charge me extra to stop off as as many times as I want throughout the course of a journey. It doesn’t charge me extra to have the cheek to want to travel back after an overnight stay away. The railway needs to stop treating its customers as a captive market and look at the competition.

 

[miklcct]

My car doesn’t charge me extra to stop off as as many times as I want throughout the course of a journey. It doesn’t charge me extra to have the cheek to want to travel back after an overnight stay away. The railway needs to stop treating its customers as a captive market and look at the competition.

but it will charge extra every time you park.

 

[Dai Corner]

but it will charge extra every time you park.

The vast majority of parked cars do so free of charge.

The main exceptions are Town and city centres and busy commuter railway stations.

 

[lyndhurst25]

but it will charge extra every time you park.

I can’t remember the last time that I paid to park anywhere. Which a bit of planning, and if you are prepared to walk, then you really don’t have to, at least in the places that I travel by car to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

but it will charge extra every time you park.

Often not, outside London, and outside London even when it does the fee is usually quite small.

 

[AY1975]

I think that's too technical. To the layperson, it's just a case of "I've paid for A-B-C, I should just be able to do A-B, or B-C, or to stop off at B to grab some food".

And/or to do a bit of sightseeing!

Not sure if this has already been mentioned in another thread, but even if you have a type of ticket for which break of journey is technically allowed, if it is issued as an e-ticket or m-ticket and it gets checked and scanned on both legs of the journey the conductor's scanner on the second leg could reject it if it has already been scanned on the first leg and then the conductor might say your ticket is invalid as it has already been used. I suppose the most obvious way round that problem would be to tell the guard on the first train that you are breaking your journey so if they realise that this could be a problem they might not scan it, leaving the guard on the second train to do so.

Let us suppose, for example, that you have a return ticket from Leeds to Keighley, and on the return leg you decide to break your journey at Saltaire. If your ticket was issued as an e-ticket or m-ticket and it gets checked and scanned going from Keighley to Saltaire and again from Saltaire to Leeds, you could have a problem as described above.

 

[Wolfie]

And/or to do a bit of sightseeing!

Not sure if this has already been mentioned in another thread, but even if you have a type of ticket for which break of journey is technically allowed, if it is issued as an e-ticket or m-ticket and it gets checked and scanned on both legs of the journey the conductor's scanner on the second leg could reject it if it has already been scanned on the first leg and then the conductor might say your ticket is invalid as it has already been used. I suppose the most obvious way round that problem would be to tell the guard on the first train that you are breaking your journey so if they realise that this could be a problem they might not scan it, leaving the guard on the second train to do so.

Let us suppose, for example, that you have a return ticket from Leeds to Keighley, and on the return leg you decide to break your journey at Saltaire. If your ticket was issued as an e-ticket or m-ticket and it gets checked and scanned going from Keighley to Saltaire and again from Saltaire to Leeds, you could have a problem as described above.

I am increasingly cynical about the railway. I wouldn't be wholly surprised if this is a deliberate backdoor attempt at eroding another passenger right.

 

[jfollows]

And/or to do a bit of sightseeing!

Not sure if this has already been mentioned in another thread, but even if you have a type of ticket for which break of journey is technically allowed, if it is issued as an e-ticket or m-ticket and it gets checked and scanned on both legs of the journey the conductor's scanner on the second leg could reject it if it has already been scanned on the first leg and then the conductor might say your ticket is invalid as it has already been used. I suppose the most obvious way round that problem would be to tell the guard on the first train that you are breaking your journey so if they realise that this could be a problem they might not scan it, leaving the guard on the second train to do so.

Let us suppose, for example, that you have a return ticket from Leeds to Keighley, and on the return leg you decide to break your journey at Saltaire. If your ticket was issued as an e-ticket or m-ticket and it gets checked and scanned going from Keighley to Saltaire and again from Saltaire to Leeds, you could have a problem as described above.

I don't think what you say is true; scanning a ticket just records it as being scanned at a time and possibly a place.
If my ticket is scanned by barriers at the station, it isn't then invalid to be scanned on the train. The same applies if it's scanned more than once, on different trains, or whatever. If I don't break my journey, but make a connection, and have two different scans on two different trains, the second one isn't rejected.
EDIT However I'll admit that if I'm wrong, then the system is seriously broken as you say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having broken my journey on etickets I can confirm this is not the case.

 

[miklcct]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/routeing-query-birmingham-to-southampton.233429/


Wouldn't it all be easier or everybody if it was all singles with no break of journey allowed?

It will definitely be easier in this case, both in terms of gateline programming and staff training.

I travelled with my partner yesterday with some breaks of journey for a dinner, after failing to find any suitable restaurants before the journey.

I used a London - Bletchley return ticket and she used a Reading - Bletchley via London return ticket. The "normal" way of route involves travelling on a direct Euston - Bletchley train for both tickets.

We had the dinner at Watford. We got out at Watford Junction where the barrier was left open, and entered the system back at Watford High Street where I would travel to North Wembley for a bus home, while she would continue to Queens Park for a direct Bakerloo line train to Paddington such that she wouldn't need to travel to Euston.

None of these tickets worked the barrier on the intermediate Overground stations. Worse, my ticket was an e-ticket and none of the intermediate Overground stations I used have scanner installed.

Although I was let out of the station without hassle after showing my e-ticket from Bletchley to Euston, telling the staff that I was stopping short (at North Wembley) when the staff told me here is not Euston, it was obvious that "breaking a journey" isn't something which regularly happens.

Therefore, my conclusion is that breaking journeys is just a minority pursuit (like using Travelcards in order to stay in the system for hours for train spotting), and this happens only as a result of non-single-leg pricing (if there is single leg pricing, I would be better off to buy the tickets leg by leg - I didn't use the North Wembley - London part of the return journey - I didn't know that I wouldn't return via Euston only until I finished my dinner and Google suggested that we take the Overground (or in case of me, use only buses to go home from Watford - with single leg pricing I could even save more as my return train journey would end at Watford Junction) rather than going back to Watford Junction to catch a fast train to Euston).

When single-leg pricing is implemented across the whole network, prohibiting break of journey can massively simply operation while giving minimal loss of flexibility.

 

[Dai Corner]

It will definitely be easier in this case, both in terms of gateline programming and staff training.

I travelled with my partner yesterday with some breaks of journey for a dinner, after failing to find any suitable restaurants before the journey.

I used a London - Bletchley return ticket and she used a Reading - Bletchley via London return ticket. The "normal" way of route involves travelling on a direct Euston - Bletchley train for both tickets.

We had the dinner at Watford. We got out at Watford Junction where the barrier was left open, and entered the system back at Watford High Street where I would travel to North Wembley for a bus home, while she would continue to Queens Park for a direct Bakerloo line train to Paddington such that she wouldn't need to travel to Euston.

None of these tickets worked the barrier on the intermediate Overground stations. Worse, my ticket was an e-ticket and none of the intermediate Overground stations I used have scanner installed.

Although I was let out of the station without hassle after showing my e-ticket from Bletchley to Euston, telling the staff that I was stopping short (at North Wembley) when the staff told me here is not Euston, it was obvious that "breaking a journey" isn't something which regularly happens.

Therefore, my conclusion is that breaking journeys is just a minority pursuit (like using Travelcards in order to stay in the system for hours for train spotting), and this happens only as a result of non-single-leg pricing (if there is single leg pricing, I would be better off to buy the tickets leg by leg - I didn't use the North Wembley - London part of the return journey - I didn't know that I wouldn't return via Euston only until I finished my dinner and Google suggested that we take the Overground (or in case of me, use only buses to go home from Watford - with single leg pricing I could even save more as my return train journey would end at Watford Junction) rather than going back to Watford Junction to catch a fast train to Euston).

When single-leg pricing is implemented across the whole network, prohibiting break of journey can massively simply operation while giving minimal loss of flexibility.

Is your partner as interested in public transport as you are? I don't think any of my ex's would have been at all impressed by the experience.

Whilst trainspotters/enthusiasts are in the minority, they can act as ambassadors for the railway and making things more difficult for them would be counter-productive. 'Normals' can have very legitimate reasons for breaking a journey too; remember the railway is competing with the most flexible means if transport ever invented, the car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When single-leg pricing is implemented across the whole network, prohibiting break of journey can massively simply operation while giving minimal loss of flexibility.

You would need mileage based pricing, not single leg pricing, for that to be the case, and you're ignoring people deciding to stop off after the journey had started.

It is interesting that TfL staff were involved in this; they are notoriously clueless about their National Rail obligations and always have been.

And there are plenty of places to eat near Bletchley! Maybe you should have posted on here asking for a recommendation Though if stopping off on the way I'd have suggested Berko, as it is quite nice and the station is not gated, and there's not a lot near WFJ station itself bar a fairly average pub and a few takeaways.

 

[miklcct]

remember the railway is competing with the most flexible means if transport ever invented, the car.

And the flexibility comes with a price as well.

The railway, like all forms of public transport, costs a fraction to the passenger compared to using a private car. The exception is when multiple people share a full car.

 

[Dai Corner]

And the flexibility comes with a price as well.

The railway, like all forms of public transport, costs a fraction to the passenger compared to using a private car. The exception is when multiple people share a full car.

Only if you limit your travel to times and destinations served by public transport. If you have to pay for taxis from origin to station and station to destination to achieve flexibility closer to that of the private car any cost advantage can soon disappear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railway, like all forms of public transport, costs a fraction to the passenger compared to using a private car.

This statement is mostly false. Driving, on a marginal basis*, is almost always cheaper than rail, unless a particularly large, inefficient car is driven, or a very cheap Advance is available. Even with fuel at nearly £2/l (and it's come down a bit).

* Don't bring in "but a car costs about 45p/mile to run" because it doesn't represent how car owners account their purchase.

 

[RT4038]

You don't, however, get penalised if you throw some of them in the composting bin. But really that's more like a season ticket than break of journey. And you don't get a prosecution letter if you buy a season and only use one day of it for whatever reason (though you do waste your money).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2022 ==



I think that's too technical. To the layperson, it's just a case of "I've paid for A-B-C, I should just be able to do A-B, or B-C, or to stop off at B to grab some food". And it's totally logical.

No, you can't do it when flying (though with a long layover nobody will stop you popping out of the airport, I have done it more than once). But airlines are hardly revered as the ambassadors of quality customer service, quite the opposite.

You usually can when flying - provided you've set the reservations up in that way. (My last long distance trip was London-Cape Town, with a four day outward stopover at Addis Ababa on the same ticket, at no extra cost). The conceptual difference is that our rail tickets are not with compulsory reservation, so break of journey potentially permits fraud which would simply not be possible on airlines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You usually can when flying - provided you've set the reservations up in that way. (My last long distance trip was London-Cape Town, with a four day outward stopover at Addis Ababa on the same ticket, at no extra cost). The conceptual difference is that our rail tickets are not with compulsory reservation, so break of journey potentially permits fraud which would simply not be possible on airlines.

Generally speaking the railway only prohibits break of journey to protect revenue, i.e. where a longer distance ticket is cheaper than a shorter distance one. Without the prohibition it isn't "fraud", just using loopholes to save money.

 

[miklcct]

This statement is mostly false. Driving, on a marginal basis*, is almost always cheaper than rail, unless a particularly large, inefficient car is driven, or a very cheap Advance is available. Even with fuel at nearly £2/l (and it's come down a bit).

This is because our public transport is too expensive. It isn't true in countries where public transport is half the price of us.

* Don't bring in "but a car costs about 45p/mile to run" because it doesn't represent how car owners account their purchase.

45p / mile is a close approximation of the total cost of car ownership, why don't bring in that? This figure is a decision if I want to buy a car or not.

 

[etr221]

Generally speaking the railway only prohibits break of journey to protect revenue, i.e. where a longer distance ticket is cheaper than a shorter distance one. Without the prohibition it isn't "fraud", just using loopholes to save money.

And that - having longer distance tickets cheaper than shorter distance ones - which is essentially a pretty massive failure of the fares system - is the root of this issue.

And - as a perhaps simple but fundamental point - break of journey is the converse of split ticketing: both are having ticket(s) which cover the journey being made, but are not for the journey being made.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that - having longer distance tickets cheaper than shorter distance ones - which is essentially a pretty massive failure of the fares system - is the root of this issue.

Indeed. And it is mostly rooted in the avarice of setting Anytime fares from Manchester/Preston/Liverpool to London at utterly outrageous levels.

If, say, a London-Manchester Anytime Return was at a more reasonable level, say £150, then it wouldn't be an issue, because an Off Peak from Glasgow would be higher so the dodge wouldn't work. (For Lancaster you'd just charge the same £150 - yes, a fare increase for some, but not swingeing).