Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

[cuccir]

In my view the arguments for dispensing with seat reservations are;
They can lead to an increase in passengers without seats due to uncertainty as to whether a seat is free or reserved (especially with electronic reservation system which do not give full details of any further reservations for a seat)
They lead to congestion when passengers board at stations as they are looking for specific seats rather than just the first available seat.
They can lead to conflict when people are not aware they are sat in a seat reserved by someone else.
They lead to passengers ending up sitting in seats they are not happy with (ie facing the wrong direction)

But these are minor irritations or brief problems: the only real recurrent problem listed here is the failure of electronic reservations on trains

The pro points for seat reservations are;

Groups are able to sit together

Those less able to stand can be guaranteed a seat (but as we know this is often not the case)

More often than not, seat reservations work: we remember the journeys when they don't because those are more memorable. On the majority of services, where people happily sit in their reserved seats, we barely notice their existence.

Anyway, the largest pro point for seat reservations is that they encourage people to use train. Without them, there are many journeys where people with luggage, babies, mobility problems, or in large groups, would chose other forms of transport.

There are clearly some problems with the current system and I'd support the idea of a small charge for reservations. But nothing anyone's said here is a real argument for their removal.

 

[Tetchytyke]

At the moment we are usually in the situation where passengers with cheaper advance tickets get seats but those passengers travelling on more expensive seats have to stand.

If you are not organised enough to reserve a seat, that is the price you pay.

Even on the most expensive flexible ticket you can reserve seats. If you don't, you're not guaranteed a seat.

And the advance ticket holders don't affect that. Even if we did away with reservations you wouldn't be any more guaranteed a seat. The advance ticket holders would still be sitting somewhere.

 

[bramling]

If you are not organised enough to reserve a seat, that is the price you pay.

Even on the most expensive flexible ticket you can reserve seats. If you don't, you're not guaranteed a seat.

And the advance ticket holders don't affect that. Even if we did away with reservations you wouldn't be any more guaranteed a seat. The advance ticket holders would still be sitting somewhere.

How about only reserving undesirable seats to the cheapest advance tickets?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I went to Edinburgh last weekend with my pregnant wife. The train was full and standing, and had been since London. I was on a walk-up ticket.

Reservations exist, so I reserved seats, boarded the train and took a lovely nice seat for the trip. If reservations didn't exist, I wouldn't have had a hope in hell of sitting down. Nor would my wife. The joy of my organisation is I got a seat. That is how it should be.

All this talk of abolishing reserved seats is just idiotic, quite frankly.

 

[al78]

How about only reserving undesirable seats to the cheapest advance tickets?

I can't see the logic in this, as there is no relationship between the price of a ticket and the entitlement to a seat. Advance ticket holders are already sacrificing flexibility for price.

Many years ago, Virgin acted like they were doing this to me, as I went through journey after journey after journey with advance tickets to find that every time I ended up with a window seat without a window. It is not like there are that many of them, but I used to get suckered regularly anyway.

 

[al78]

If you are not organised enough to reserve a seat, that is the price you pay.

Even on the most expensive flexible ticket you can reserve seats. If you don't, you're not guaranteed a seat.

And the advance ticket holders don't affect that. Even if we did away with reservations you wouldn't be any more guaranteed a seat. The advance ticket holders would still be sitting somewhere.

You might be more likely to get a seat in such a case if you turned up well before departure time and were starting from a terminus. It would be those who board early get a seat, whereas in the current situation advance ticket holders are not pressurised to get on board the train as early as possible, because the seat is allocated for them, like boarding an aircraft there is no rush, because everyone has a seat. If I am visiting family I like to board the train promptly so I can put my folding bike in the luggage rack before the world and his wife have filled them all with suitcases.

 

[bramling]

I went to Edinburgh last weekend with my pregnant wife. The train was full and standing, and had been since London. I was on a walk-up ticket.

Reservations exist, so I reserved seats, boarded the train and took a lovely nice seat for the trip. If reservations didn't exist, I wouldn't have had a hope in hell of sitting down. Nor would my wife. The joy of my organisation is I got a seat. That is how it should be.

All this talk of abolishing reserved seats is just idiotic, quite frankly.

The other side of the coin is that not everyone is able to plan what train they are going to catch. Having already paid extra (in many cases very considerably extra) for this flexibility, one then gets hit a second time by potentially having to scrape the barrel to find a seat, or involuntarily enter into a lottery of "will the cheap advance ticket holder for this seat actually turn up?"

The alternative is of course to take the car - a guaranteed seat, nowadays probably more comfortable than some recent designs of train seat, sadly nowadays probably a quicker and cheaper journey, and no danger of having a family from hell sitting nearby who have paid rock-bottom on a cheap advance. Of course if everyone did just that there would be no train, as the railway couldn't pay for itself solely on cheap advances.

Actually, I'd just solve the issue at root by getting rid of cheap advances.

 

[CeeJ]

The other side of the coin is that not everyone is able to plan what train they are going to catch. Having already paid extra (in many cases very considerably extra) for this flexibility, one then gets hit a second time by potentially having to scrape the barrel to find a seat, or involuntarily enter into a lottery of "will the cheap advance ticket holder for this seat actually turn up?"

The solution to this is making it easier to change/make reservations for those with flexible tickets, so long as the train hasn't started boarding at its starting point - which is hopefully the direction they move in with the Class 800.

Actually, I'd just solve the issue at root by getting rid of cheap advances.

Thus reducing the overall number of passengers and making rail a significantly less optimal way of travelling.

 

[Ianno87]

Thus reducing the overall number of passengers and making rail a significantly less optimal way of travelling.

And/or removing a very effective way of using price to match demand to where there is spare supply. So everyone just piles on the same conveniently timed train whilst other trains in the day run around empty.

 

[DarloRich]

In my view the arguments for dispensing with seat reservations are;

They can lead to an increase in passengers without seats due to uncertainty as to whether a seat is free or reserved (especially with electronic reservation system which do not give full details of any further reservations for a seat)

They lead to congestion when passengers board at stations as they are looking for specific seats rather than just the first available seat.

They can lead to conflict when people are not aware they are sat in a seat reserved by someone else.

They lead to passengers ending up sitting in seats they are not happy with (ie facing the wrong direction)

minor issues overblown to suggest problems. As said above the main issue is electronic systems either not working or not showing enough information to allow a passenger to understand when a seat is actually reserved to and from.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the confrontations i have seen over reserved seats and almost all of those were because one passenger involved in the argument was to stupid to understand their own seat booking!

All this talk of abolishing reserved seats is just idiotic, quite frankly.

is the correct answer!

 

[trainophile]

I can’t understand this view that people who travel on Advance tickets are unworthy of a pleasant journey on a par with people holding other types of ticket.

Even those who say they have no idea of what trains they will require to take (which I find a bit bewildering, given that those travelling at short notice for business reasons will be on expenses, and the occasional family emergency for others will be just that, occasional), if you are booking your holidays a few weeks or months ahead, who wouldn’t favour a £50 Advance to e.g. Scotland over a full price ticket costing a couple of hundred pounds? And you would still like a reserved seat no doubt!

Is there some sort of snobbery against people who like to travel as cheaply as possible, in my case so that I can afford more trips?

Anyway ATW Advances don’t issue seat reservations, just counted places, and it is unclear whether they can be obtained from a ticket office if you’re not doing the whole transaction there, which is risky if online shows “one ticket left at this price”.

Incidentally I remember travelling with my mum to Glasgow from Hereford about 30 years ago and being charged £1 each for our seat reservations. I suppose that would equate to at least a fiver now.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The other side of the coin is that not everyone is able to plan what train they are going to catch.

Everyone has a rough idea, really. I genuinely cannot remember a time when I've travelled without knowing the rough time in advance.

The solution to this is making it easier to change/make reservations for those with flexible tickets

Ironically XC do that, and everyone seems to hate it.

 

[edwin_m]

The solution to this is making it easier to change/make reservations for those with flexible tickets, so long as the train hasn't started boarding at its starting point - which is hopefully the direction they move in with the Class 800.

I think it would be OK to allow reservations to change en route as long as it was done in a better way than XC seem to do it. Designate certain seats as "may be reserved", show them amber on the traffic light indicators and taken on the reservation indicators on departure screens, and ensure there is a good number of unreserved seats elsewhere in the train (and that passengers know where this is). And under no circumstances should an unreserved seat become reserved during the journey - if someone wants to make a reservation en route and all the "may be reserved" seats have already been reserved then they should be told no seat is available.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You might be more likely to get a seat in such a case if you turned up well before departure time and were starting from a terminus. It would be those who board early get a seat

My experience with London Midland, and the Euston stampede, is that it's not the early bird who nabs the seat. It's the one with the longest stride and the sharpest elbows. Those who can't move quickly- older people, disabled people, families- don't stand a chance.

And if you're not on at the origin station, you can forget it.

Preventing the stampede at stations is the biggest bonus of reservations.

 

[bramling]

I can’t understand this view that people who travel on Advance tickets are unworthy of a pleasant journey on a par with people holding other types of ticket.

Even those who say they have no idea of what trains they will require to take (which I find a bit bewildering, given that those travelling at short notice for business reasons will be on expenses, and the occasional family emergency for others will be just that, occasional), if you are booking your holidays a few weeks or months ahead, who wouldn’t favour a £50 Advance to e.g. Scotland over a full price ticket costing a couple of hundred pounds? And you would still like a reserved seat no doubt!

Is there some sort of snobbery against people who like to travel as cheaply as possible, in my case so that I can afford more trips?

Anyway ATW Advances don’t issue seat reservations, just counted places, and it is unclear whether they can be obtained from a ticket office if you’re not doing the whole transaction there, which is risky if online shows “one ticket left at this price”.

Incidentally I remember travelling with my mum to Glasgow from Hereford about 30 years ago and being charged £1 each for our seat reservations. I suppose that would equate to at least a fiver now.

The view is simple - if one pays considerably less for something then one should not be getting things over those who have paid a lot more.

It’s simply not always possible to plan. If I go for a day trip I’m often heavily influenced by weather whether I make the trip at all - try predicting weather! Likewise I simply don’t want to be tied down to a particular train. I’m more than happy to pay for this flexibility, but then don’t take kindly to the train being stuffed with cheap advance ticket holders.

 

[PeterC]

Everyone has a rough idea, really. I genuinely cannot remember a time when I've travelled without knowing the rough time in advance.

A rough time, yes but when I was working I could never count on being able to time departure for a specific train.

 

[bramling]

My experience with London Midland, and the Euston stampede, is that it's not the early bird who nabs the seat. It's the one with the longest stride and the sharpest elbows. Those who can't move quickly- older people, disabled people, families- don't stand a chance.

And if you're not on at the origin station, you can forget it.

Preventing the stampede at stations is the biggest bonus of reservations.

Instead there’s a whole load of fuss and bother while people find their seats, doubtless a few awkward moments with people in the wrong seats, followed by loads of no shows. That’s when it’s all working of course - the favourite mess is of course when the reservations don’t appear too the train is several minutes into its journey, which is not uncommon.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The view is simple - if one pays considerably less for something then one should not be getting things over those who have paid a lot more.

Anyone can reserve a seat. Nobody is getting anything you're not entitled to. Reserve seats if it bothers you so much.

You are, of course, paying for the ability to change your plans, something advance ticket holders cannot do.

A rough time, yes but when I was working I could never count on being able to time departure for a specific train.

My meeting should finish at 5. I'll book a train for 6. I'll reserve a seat on the train at 6. But if my meeting finishes at 4, I can get an earlier train, but if it's rammed I'll wait for a train I've guaranteed a seat on.

 

[Tetchytyke]

followed by loads of no shows

No shows caused by people on flexible tickets who have utilised that flexibility...

Advance ticket holders are either on the train or clutching an expensive sheet of orange cardboard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about only reserving undesirable seats to the cheapest advance tickets?

The problem with doing this (and I agree it very much looked like VTWC were doing it for a bit, though I'm unsure if the system is actually capable of assigning specific seats to a quota rather than just a quantity of them) is that there is no option to say "I want to pay a little more to get a decent seat but still want an Advance". So really the only fair way of doing that is following the airlines and charging for reservations but charging more for more desirable seats.

I wouldn't actually be opposed to a bit extra to guarantee an extra legroom seat, though priority seats are normally quite easy to get anyway as most people who don't need the legroom don't choose them anyway due to the risk of being "unseated" for someone who needs the seat more. (That actual risk in my experience is quite low; I find they are actually poorly suited to most people who find access difficult as the extra spacing means that they can't hold onto the seat in front to lower them into the seat).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Instead there’s a whole load of fuss and bother while people find their seats, doubtless a few awkward moments with people in the wrong seats, followed by loads of no shows. That’s when it’s all working of course - the favourite mess is of course when the reservations don’t appear too the train is several minutes into its journey, which is not uncommon.

Or worse Voyagers, where the system seems to turn on and off randomly due to load shedding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Preventing the stampede at stations is the biggest bonus of reservations.

Reducing the Euston scrum and the likes of it is probably one of the best arguments for compulsory (or semi-compulsory, i.e. unmarked and available at all times) reservations, TBH.

Though reservations on LNR would be difficult unless it was just reserved/unreserved areas (and that would hack off the regulars who are the bread and butter of any commuter operation). The trains aren't at Euston for long enough for them to be placed. It was tried by LM in their early days, and it caused havoc.

Really, with LNR, there are relatively few "vulnerable" people travelling in the peaks, and on the rare occasion that there are commuters tend to let them sit down. The issue is off-peak, where it would be completely solved by running 8 cars on everything (and 12 on Saturday evenings after about 2200, which they already do), as that would give everyone a seat. It's 4-car formations which are the main problem, they really should not be running any of those at all, and it is purely a cost cutting thing (due to expensive 350/2 leases) which means they do.

 

[Ianno87]

The view is simple - if one pays considerably less for something then one should not be getting things over those who have paid a lot more.

It’s simply not always possible to plan. If I go for a day trip I’m often heavily influenced by weather whether I make the trip at all - try predicting weather! Likewise I simply don’t want to be tied down to a particular train. I’m more than happy to pay for this flexibility, but then don’t take kindly to the train being stuffed with cheap advance ticket holders.

Arguably, 'budget' Advance Travellers are actually inadvertently doing people on flexible tickets a favour; choosing to tie down their travel plans and fix on a less busy train, freeing up space on a busier train for those on more expensive tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arguably, 'budget' Advance Travellers are actually inadvertently doing people on flexible tickets a favour; choosing to tie down their travel plans and fix on a less busy train, freeing up space on a busier train for those on more expensive tickets.

Indeed. Some TOCs however royally take the mick on this and offer Advances on trains that normally load full and standing, and they need to pack it in[1]. Yes, you, WMT and I believe ATW. Essentially, if that seat being taken up is an issue, they shouldn't be sold at all.

[1] Other than that I'd concede to an Advance being offered in near unlimited quantities at half the price of the Off Peak Return during the times of its validity, to avoid the "ripping people off for buying singles" issue.

 

[trainophile]

The view is simple - if one pays considerably less for something then one should not be getting things over those who have paid a lot more.

It’s simply not always possible to plan. If I go for a day trip I’m often heavily influenced by weather whether I make the trip at all - try predicting weather! Likewise I simply don’t want to be tied down to a particular train. I’m more than happy to pay for this flexibility, but then don’t take kindly to the train being stuffed with cheap advance ticket holders.

You admit yourself that you like the flexibility of not travelling if the weather is bad. That’s your prerogative but comes at a price. I have had several trips already this year either plodging around in the rain, or being scrapped altogether when we had the heavy snow in Feb. That’s MY prerogative, and I am quite prepared to lose money if my plans change so that I can’t use my tickets.

Currently waiting for a date for my other half to have a leg operation, but rather than putting everything on hold I’m continuing to book my trips, in the knowledge that there’s a high possibility that one of them will be wasted money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW, even if you changed nothing else, a very useful thing would be to allow one to make a reservation for a walk-up ticket online/by mobile app after purchase, entering the ticket number to avoid someone just making a load for trains they might use. You can do it at a ticket office, but that is a bit inconvenient.

DB offer that on their site.

 

[Master29]

How about only reserving undesirable seats to the cheapest advance tickets?

Yeah, great idea that. Why not put straw and mulch down for them as well. Reserve a seat at no extra price or turn up earlier to get a seat. Simple. End of argument. I reserve my own seat all the time and never get problems. If not I sit in reserved seats and if the individuals who has reserved the seat turns up I give it up. Yes I know there are unfortunate times when we can be late or having to make emergency journeys but even here reservations are sometimes available. Why should the system change to accommodate an entitled attitude of `I deserve a seat on an overcrowded rail network and let the advance ticket holders eat cake`.

 

[crosscity]

Everyone has a rough idea, really. I genuinely cannot remember a time when I've travelled without knowing the rough time in advance.

Not me! Many is the time I have met friends in cities with trains every 20 or 30 minutes back to Birmingham. We will get holed up in a pub or restaurant and I will head for home when I am ready, turning up at the station and catching the next available train. The only limiting factor is the time of the last train.

Why are people so precious about having reserved seats? In my experience not finding a seat is very rare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I tend to find as I said above that I know the outward time but not the return of most journeys. This is also true of car journeys.

 

[Bensonby]

Something I’ve not thought about before today is when flexibility is needed but the ticket “comes with a reservation”. I’ve got to go on a work trip from London to Birmingham in a couple of weeks and put in a request for a ticket to our travel department: going there I said I didn’t mind an advance ticket as I know what time my appointment is. On the return o have no idea what time I will need a train so I said I wanted flexibility.

I have been given an inflexible advanced ticket but have been nominally booked on a train (with a seat reservation that I may not use) but no idea if I’ll acrially be on it (probably not, as I’ll probably stop off for a drink with a friend once I’ve finished for the day). Surely a way to reliquish my reservation would be a good idea? Or ensure that reservations don’t come as standard?