Should Southbound XC services be pick up only at Wakefield?

[DanNCL]

Following on from this post:

A significant problem with southbound late afternoon/early evening XC services leaving Leeds is that Wakefield passengers will crowd out 4/5 coach xx.11 voyagers just to get home 4 minutes earlier than the (generally) more spacious LNER xx.15 departures. Ideally these XC services would be advertised "first stop Sheffield" at Leeds.

My idea to help with this would be for southbound XC services at Wakefield to be made pick up only. It would mean those travelling from York northwards would have to change trains at Leeds, but is there a significant enough number of passengers making such a journey for that to be an issue?

 

[Starmill]

A significant problem with southbound late afternoon/early evening XC services leaving Leeds is that Wakefield passengers will crowd out 4/5 coach xx.11 voyagers just to get home 4 minutes earlier than the (generally) more spacious LNER xx.15 departures. Ideally these XC services would be advertised "first stop Sheffield" at Leeds.

Is it really sensible to prevent journeys such as Newcastle to Wakefield Westgate on these trains?

You can't remove the stop from the screens and announcements without changing the schedule to be pick up only at Wakefield Westgate.

 

[Neptune]

The suggestion here is that people from Wakefield shouldn’t have a direct service to/from York and beyond because another thread is about a busy short formed XC service on a particular day (formed as a 9 car today btw). Seems rather unfair to me.

 

[JonathanH]

The suggestion here is that people from Wakefield shouldn’t have a direct service to/from York and beyond because another thread is about a busy short formed XC service on a particular day (formed as a 9 car today btw). Seems rather unfair to me.

I think the suggestion could be modified that CrossCountry trains shouldn't be advertised at Leeds as stopping at Wakefield, but would be from stations further north. I'm not sure whether that would make a difference though.

Not permitting short journeys on coaches works - for example, you can't book the 465 National Express late night coach between Leeds and Wakefield - but I don't think it would necessarily work on the railway. Presumably a way would need to be found that allows journey planners to offer itineraries from York to Wakefield but not Leeds to Wakefield.

 

[dk1]

Certainly not.

 

[tbtc]

As a former commuter from Sheffield to Leeds, I can sympathise with at attempt to try to manage demands, it was frustrating when you struggled to board a teatime Voyager home only to find half the passengers getting off after fifteen minutes

But XC tried a “pick up only” restriction on a couple of afternoon Wakefield stops before, and gave up

Practically, a conductor is going to struggle to get down a single carriage before Westgate, given how busy things were, so I don’t think it’d deter many passengers

Ordinarily I’d suggest that we improved capacity in other services but you can’t do anything about the two coach DMUs from Leeds to Kirkgate (due to the capacity of platform seventeen at Leeds), the Doncaster stoppers are at maximum length, the London trains are often 9x23m… And most Wakefield commuters will just want the first train home even if there’s more chance of a seat on one fifteen minutes later, it’s human nature

If someone can “solve” The problem then great, it’s definitely a problem, but the fact that XC abandoned the restriction a few years ago probably tells its own story about his difficult things are to enforce

 

[JonathanH]

And most Wakefield commuters will just want the first train home even if there’s more chance of a seat on one fifteen minutes later, it’s human nature

For every Wakefield commuter who travels on the first XC train there will be others who already catch the LNER one four minutes behind. A regular commuter knows which are the busy trains so makes an informed decision about catching the first train, and will stand if necessary.

 

[Krokodil]

All of the convoluted suggestions on how to deal with XC overcrowding, usually involving PUO/SDO station calls, ignore the most obvious solution. XC needs more rolling stock. The answer to insufficient capacity at the chronic levels experienced by XC shouldn't be to make passengers lives more difficult in an effort to discourage them, the answer should be to meet the level of demand with sufficient capacity. Obviously this will involve getting the tightwads in HM Treasury to open the nation's wallet but it would be long overdue.

 

[Crossover]

The suggestion here is that people from Wakefield shouldn’t have a direct service to/from York and beyond because another thread is about a busy short formed XC service on a particular day (formed as a 9 car today btw). Seems rather unfair to me.

Agreed. PU/SU restrictions work for stations where there is an intensive service a short distance from a terminus (extreme example, but the restrictions at the likes of Clapham Junction harm no-one), but to do it for XC at Wakefield Westgate would have huge consequences to those travelling from further north, or if attempted implementation was by some obscure rule, it would be fairly unenforcable and not worth the paper it is written on.

The only TOC for whom a PU/SD rule would work at Wakefield Westgate is LNER due to them only starting their journeys at Leeds

 

[DanNCL]

Without a shadow of a doubt what XC really needs is more stock but I think we all know realistically that won’t happen with the current government so another less ideal solution is needed, one that won’t cost the treasury money they aren’t willing to spend.

Wakefield is getting another direct York service from Kirkgate isn’t it? Or has that plan been scrapped?
If that’s still going ahead then it’s only stations from Darlington northwards that lose a direct link, are there really many people wanting Wakefield from those stations?

But XC tried a “pick up only” restriction on a couple of afternoon Wakefield stops before, and gave up

Didn’t know that, when was this?

 

[YorksLad12]

For every Wakefield commuter who travels on the first XC train there will be others who already catch the LNER one four minutes behind. A regular commuter knows which are the busy trains so makes an informed decision about catching the first train, and will stand if necessary.

You say that, but... the 0811 XC from Leeds has a lot of students who go to Wakefield College. I have often wondered why they don't wait for the 0815 LNER service (which left Leeds at 0812 yesterday and today!) as it's generally a 9-car set with consequently more seating. I mean, what are they teaching kids these days?

 

[Starmill]

I think the suggestion could be modified that CrossCountry trains shouldn't be advertised at Leeds as stopping at Wakefield, but would be from stations further north.

This would lead to complaints when people buy their ticket on their phone, and then the train doesn't exist. It's definitely not workable.

 

[JonathanH]

This would lead to complaints when people buy their ticket on their phone, and then the train doesn't exist. It's definitely not workable.

I think that the booking engines would have to be set up so they don't see the CrossCountry service for journeys between Leeds and Wakefield.

 

[Grecian 1998]

VXC also tried restrictions at Oxford around 20 years ago - pick-up only northbound and set down only southbound. These too were removed.

Very hard to enforce with a constant turnover of passengers. As said upthread, is it really fair or sensible to prevent Newcastle - Wakefield or Bournemouth - Oxford journeys on what is the only direct service?

Slightly different out of London terminals where there is invariably a frequent alternative direct service for shorter distance travellers.

 

[HSTEd]

What problem are we actually trying to solve here?

How big a problem is a train being more crowded for fifteen minutes?

 

[Krokodil]

How big a problem is a train being more crowded for fifteen minutes?

Quite big if long-distance passengers are left behind.

The only real solution is proper length trains on Crosscountry. Anyone got any bright ideas for how to get the Chancellor to undo his purse strings?

 

[Bevan Price]

Quite big if long-distance passengers are left behind.

The only real solution is proper length trains on Crosscountry. Anyone got any bright ideas for how to get the Chancellor to undo his purse strings?

Don't vote Tory at any future election ??

 

[Krokodil]

Don't vote Tory at any future election ??

I have little confidence that a Labour-run Treasury will result in longer trains on XC either. TfW is Labour-run and they've not learned from the mistakes of ordering 2-car units.

 

[MattRat]

I have little confidence that a Labour-run Treasury will result in longer trains on XC either. TfW is Labour-run and they've not learned from the mistakes of ordering 2-car units.

But they did order new trains. And new intercity trains do have more space, even the 5 car ones.

 

[30907]

Quite big if long-distance passengers are left behind.

The only real solution is proper length trains on Crosscountry. Anyone got any bright ideas for how to get the Chancellor to undo his purse strings?

While I agree they are needed, running 8 cars from Newcastle to Birmingham (or further) to cope with Leeds-Wakefield loadings isn't efficient.
It's a shame the XC and LNER paths can't be swapped back, which would merely involve rewriting the whole timetable.

 

[Krokodil]

While I agree they are needed, running 8 cars from Newcastle to Birmingham (or further) to cope with Leeds-Wakefield loadings isn't efficient.

Leeds-Wakefield was where passengers were being left behind, but it wouldn't surprise me if the train was full and standing for most of its journey from Edinburgh to Plymouth. A 220 only has 174 standard class seats.

 

[DanNCL]

Definitely Newcastle southwards needs more capacity. Some of the quieter services can manage a 5 car unit north of Newcastle without being too uncomfortable, a 4 car though isn’t great.

 

[Starmill]

I think that the booking engines would have to be set up so they don't see the CrossCountry service for journeys between Leeds and Wakefield.

This isn't really something the standards can really enforce. If there's an open call at Leeds and an open call at Wakefield Westgate you are obliged to retail that service.

I have little confidence that a Labour-run Treasury will result in longer trains on XC either. TfW is Labour-run and they've not learned from the mistakes of ordering 2-car units.

But TfW have ordered vastly more rolling stock for their network than they would have been permitted to if they were in England. Sure plenty of them are two car but they've stumped up a significant amount of money to use five car locomotive-hauled sets, while CrossCountry are being forced to give up some of their trains.

I don't believe a Labour-run government would be forcing XC to give up rolling stock while refusing outright to lease perfectly compatible replacement trains which are sitting in the sidings with no work. TfW and XC are like night and day.

 

[HSTEd]

How many diagrams does XC actually run with the Voyager fleet in a given day?
If we were looking at replacment stock, how much would we need?

 

[Starmill]

How many diagrams does XC actually run with the Voyager fleet in a given day?
If we were looking at replacment stock, how much would we need?

I believe there are 38 four car units and 20 five car units, with 53 from the 58 required on weekdays. Rarely, a Voyager might cover for a Turbostar, or for an HST. Though as we know the HST work will be covered permanently by Voyagers soon.

 

[WAB]

How many diagrams does XC actually run with the Voyager fleet in a given day?
If we were looking at replacment stock, how much would we need?

It would depend on:

• What sort of level of service you wanted to provide (do you want a full pre-Covid timetable, or are you going to reduce frequencies to compensate for higher capacity units)?
• Are you going for the 7+ cars option? Then you need to provide for the services which form off a double unit (e.g. the last up train from Edinburgh).
• Going for 4/5 cars? You will need fewer, but not many fewer if you want every passenger to be seated on all but the busiest services as excessive attaching and dividing introduces a performance risk
• Where will they be maintained?
• Running as 7+ cars? You will need more units to keep cancellations down as you can't reduce doubles to singles.
• Are you going to allow for the increase in passengers which will occur once XC stops being rammed all day every day?

 

[30907]

Leeds-Wakefield was where passengers were being left behind, but it wouldn't surprise me if the train was full and standing for most of its journey from Edinburgh to Plymouth. A 220 only has 174 standard class seats.

You haven't said, bur I assume this relates to the 1810 departure which is 4 cars and perhaps ought to be 5 - but in Leeds that's definitely shoulder-peak. If it's full and standing from Newcastle to Bristol (say) that's another matter.

 

[MCSHF007]

I think a lot of the problem is that the prominent "next train to" departure board will show the xx:11 Cross Country for Wakefield Westgate as people enter through the barriers after the departure of the xx:48 stopper (only Outwood as far as Wakefield is concerned).

So everyone (not just the clued up regulars) looking at that departure board ignores the generally longer (and usually available for boarding) LNER xx:15 trains at the adjacent platforms 6 and 8 to trek over the footbridge to Platform 12 and wait to crowd onto the Cross Country service. Only to find in many cases that the xx:15 LNER actually departs first!!

Note all the valid points about suppressing open stops but it's still a shame that the software boffins can't find a way of displaying the xx:15 LNER as the next Wakefield Westgate service on the "next departure" screens as opposed to the xx:11 Cross Country.

 

[HSTEd]

It would depend on:

• What sort of level of service you wanted to provide (do you want a full pre-Covid timetable, or are you going to reduce frequencies to compensate for higher capacity units)?
• Are you going for the 7+ cars option? Then you need to provide for the services which form off a double unit (e.g. the last up train from Edinburgh).
• Going for 4/5 cars? You will need fewer, but not many fewer if you want every passenger to be seated on all but the busiest services as excessive attaching and dividing introduces a performance risk
• Where will they be maintained?
• Running as 7+ cars? You will need more units to keep cancellations down as you can't reduce doubles to singles.
• Are you going to allow for the increase in passengers which will occur once XC stops being rammed all day every day?

Well right now the capacity of a double unit varies from 400 seats (2 4-car voyagers) through 524 seats (2 5-cars)

By comparison a 5-car Class 802/2 has 342 seats, so approaches the capacity of a Double (short) Voyager in a single unit configuration. Lumo's single-class configuration of the IEP even exceeds 400 seats

If, hypothetically, we got some more IEPs or took TPEs, how many double formations would actually be needed?

That's why I asked about number of diagrams rather than numbers of units.

A Class 802, even in two class configuration, supports 20% more passengers per unit length than a Class 220 or 4-car 221.

 

[YorksLad12]

I'm in the fortunate position of travelling Leeds to Sheffield, and having that journey as a RTT bookmark on my phone. When it shows as being four cars instead of the usual eight (at the moment) or nine (sometimes) I go for the 0804 semi-fast. Most people just pitch up and hope for the best.

So everyone (not just the clued up regulars) looking at that departure board ignores the generally longer (and usually available for boarding) LNER xx:15 trains at the adjacent platforms 6 and 8 to trek over the footbridge to Platform 12 and wait to crowd onto the Cross Country service. Only to find in many cases that the xx:15 LNER actually departs first!!

Point of order: in the last two months I've caught it it's always been ahead of the 0815 LNER, even when running late. And always on P15 southbound (P8 northbound). 5Z43 usually follows us on P16 (or precedes and delays us) running from Neville Hill to Derby. The LNER services seem to be departing early (three minutes yesterday, one minute today), but then get held at Leeds West End while the 0811 runs ahead of it.