Should Southern On Board Supervisors (OBS) be abolished?

[Sussex Ben]

Just travelled from Victoria to Burgess Hill, and the on board supervisor has spent the entirety of the journey in the back cab. As they therefore don’t appear to be required for the operation of the train, nor are they providing any ‘customer experience’ benefits, is there any point to their existence and should Southern therefore be a fully DOO railway such as Thameslink is?

 

[BJames]

It is a shame, as some are a lot better than others. Had a number of OBSs who have been very informative and friendly, checking on passengers and checking tickets throughout the whole journey, stepping out onto the platform at each station.

I like the presence even where they are not safety critical, but those who choose to do absolutely nothing do not help the case for OBS's in my view.

 

[TrainGeekUK]

On the Ashford Route from Eastbourne, I’ve never had a journey where I’ve not had my ticket checked…

However on the mainline, it’s a different story altogether.

 

[Sussex Ben]

It’s disappointing, as even though the OBS did step out of the cab at each station there was no other suggestion that there was a second member of staff onboard the train, other than a short announcement approaching Gatwick.

While there are some very good ones, it’s a shame, as any OBS who doesn’t spend time patrolling their train just gives the impression of a turkey voting for Christmas, who’s uppance will surely come someday when the DfT come looking for further industry efficiencies.

As an aside, I don’t travel on Southern very often but I have found that my ticket gets checked more often on Thameslink services, despite these being fully DOO.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Some on a late night don’t like venturing out of the rear cab due to prospective trouble. Even on guarded trains it’s not worth pestering drunks for fares if they are nasty drunk. It’s no excuse for doing away with them though as they’re there for more than just revenue collection.

 

[Sussex Ben]

Some on a late night don’t like venturing out of the rear cab due to prospective trouble. Even on guarded trains it’s not worth pestering drunks for fares if they are nasty drunk. It’s no excuse for doing away with them though as they’re there for more than just revenue collection.

Fine, but if they are staying in the cab, what are they actually doing? Walking through the train just proving their existence would be a start, even if they aren’t checking tickets.

 

[MrJeeves]

Just travelled from Victoria to Burgess Hill, and the on board supervisor has spent the entirety of the journey in the back cab. As they therefore don’t appear to be required for the operation of the train, nor are they providing any ‘customer experience’ benefits, is there any point to their existence and should Southern therefore be a fully DOO railway such as Thameslink is?

Sounds about normal. Usually they start doing more OBS-ey things when they hit the coastway if you're lucky.

All trains are DOO these days, and the OBS exists only for customer service (or lack of in some cases) and for dispatch assistance in degraded conditions if they are qualified to do so and permitted by control.

In my experience, probably 50% of my Southern journeys I never see the OBS walk through the train. Probably around 10-15% I never hear an announcement, except at Gatwick Airport. Around 5% chance I get my ticket checked, usually by more senior staff members who likely continued their conductor-like role after the ASLEF-GTR agreement rather than newer staff who do the minimum needed.

At unstaffed stations they should be stepping off the train to ensure noone requires passenger assistance, though, (and most I see will do it at every station stop, even if just briefly).

 

[Ashley Hill]

Fine, but if they are staying in the cab, what are they actually doing? Walking through the train just proving their existence would be a start, even if they aren’t checking tickets.

Agreed,they should at least provide a physical presence. Being seen is sometimes enough to prevent some unruly behaviour and if it’s too bad you can call for assistance. Seen to be doing something is better than doing nothing. At least it justifies you being there.

 

[dastocks]

Just travelled from Victoria to Burgess Hill, and the on board supervisor has spent the entirety of the journey in the back cab. As they therefore don’t appear to be required for the operation of the train, nor are they providing any ‘customer experience’ benefits, is there any point to their existence and should Southern therefore be a fully DOO railway such as Thameslink is?

I don't think DOO is allowed on the Coastway routes? If so it could be the OBS on your train was effectively travelling to work.

 

[MrJeeves]

I don't think DOO is allowed on the Coastway routes? If so it could be the OBS on your train was effectively travelling to work.

Brighton/Three Bridges/Haywards Heath to/from coastway are DOO with an OBS, unless there's a good reason for the OBS not to be on board:

The following are circumstances when Control may require the service to run without the OBS. Before applying any of the following the Resource Manager/OBS Coordinator must try to provide a replacement OBS for the service, or part of the service, where reasonably practicable.
a) OBS absent/ late on duty, or unauthorised absence, at the start of or during the duty, and where there is no alternative cover available to run this service.
b) Late notice OBS sickness / emergency leave and where there is no alternative cover available to run this service.
c) OBS delayed whilst ‘passing’ to work.
d) OBS displaced by late running or service disruption. Should c) or d) occur, arrangements must be made to restore OBS presence as soon as is reasonably possible.
e) OBS unable to continue duty having commenced booked diagram (for example through sickness or assault).
f) Driver or OBS error (e.g. If the OBS is left behind by driver and/or OBS error, or OBS misreading roster/diagram)
g) OBS has to leave the service, to cope with a passenger incident or civil emergency.

Routes this particular agreement applies to:

a) All Services running on the Brighton Main Line (BML) which as at 21 August 2016 were operated with a conductor.
b) Services to East Grinstead.
c) Services between Reigate/Redhill and Tonbridge.
d) Services between Horsham and Dorking.
e) Services between Three Bridges/Horsham/Arun Valley.
f) Brighton/Haywards Heath to East Coastway.
g) Brighton/Haywards Heath to West Coastway.

 

[Horizon22]

Fine, but if they are staying in the cab, what are they actually doing? Walking through the train just proving their existence would be a start, even if they aren’t checking tickets.

As mentioned, it might be for safety reasons. They really should step out to check for assistance passengers but you can just about do that from the back cab, not ideal. Could also do PAs from there.

I doubt this is much difference for many on-board crew on late night Friday services where it isn’t worth the hassle.

“Walking through” wouldn’t achieve loads, although might be desirable for some to know there’s a presence.

 

[Russel]

Just travelled from Victoria to Burgess Hill, and the on board supervisor has spent the entirety of the journey in the back cab. As they therefore don’t appear to be required for the operation of the train, nor are they providing any ‘customer experience’ benefits, is there any point to their existence and should Southern therefore be a fully DOO railway such as Thameslink is?

Not just limited to southern OBS's though, is it, many guards don't really do a great deal between opening and closing the doors.

 

[GatwickDepress]

On the Ashford Route from Eastbourne, I’ve never had a journey where I’ve not had my ticket checked…

However on the mainline, it’s a different story altogether.

Always been impressed with the on-board supervivors on the Coastway routes. I used to get both early and late trains to/from Eastbourne and the staff always made announcements and had a presence in the saloon, even if they didn't check tickets.

 

[Robertj21a]

No problems with the Southern OBS as far as I'm concerned. Most good and helpful, a few rogues (as anywhere).
The alternative is full DOO - not sure that's got any further benefit.

 

[Chester1]

Sounds about normal. Usually they start doing more OBS-ey things when they hit the coastway if you're lucky.

All trains are DOO these days, and the OBS exists only for customer service (or lack of in some cases) and for dispatch assistance in degraded conditions if they are qualified to do so and permitted by control.

In my experience, probably 50% of my Southern journeys I never see the OBS walk through the train. Probably around 10-15% I never hear an announcement, except at Gatwick Airport. Around 5% chance I get my ticket checked, usually by more senior staff members who likely continued their conductor-like role after the ASLEF-GTR agreement rather than newer staff who do the minimum needed.

At unstaffed stations they should be stepping off the train to ensure noone requires passenger assistance, though, (and most I see will do it at every station stop, even if just briefly).

Are they paid a bonus per ticket scanned? It seems to have been successful with other ToCs. If OBS are not out and about then there are recruitment and management issues. When guards first became OBS there will have been staff who were annoyed with their job being downgraded but after seven years those people should have moved on or retired. Its a customer service role and people should have been recruited that actually like interacting with passengers. I would like to see OBS introduced on some DOO services e.g. Great Northern but that will be difficult to justify if GTR have OBS in the cab most of the time.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Some on a late night don’t like venturing out of the rear cab due to prospective trouble. Even on guarded trains it’s not worth pestering drunks for fares if they are nasty drunk. It’s no excuse for doing away with them though as they’re there for more than just revenue collection.

What more are they there for if they don’t appear from the rear cab? They aren’t involved at all in the operation of the train, just to provide customer service.

 

[Somewhere]

On the Ashford Route from Eastbourne, I’ve never had a journey where I’ve not had my ticket checked…

However on the mainline, it’s a different story altogether.

They're not OBSs. They are guards. They have to come out or the train doesn't go

 

[Ashley Hill]

What more are they there for if they don’t appear from the rear cab? They aren’t involved at all in the operation of the train, just to provide customer service.

I am aware that OBS has no operational duties but if they’re not doing revenue they should at least patrol the train now and again.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I am aware that OBS has no operational duties but if they’re not doing revenue they should at least patrol the train now and again.

This one according to the OP appeared to be doing neither, adding no value whatsoever!

Guards have other operational duties so it’s understandable that they have other things to do but when a role is purely customer service making yourself invisible bluntly means you aren’t doing your job!

 

[alf]

In my experience OBS range from being brilliant, equal to the very best guards at other companies, to being invisible. Most seem good.

When OBS operation as agreed by Aslef but imposed on RMT, the RMT refused to recognise the grade or represent them.
Is that still the case?

Secondly, as part of the OBS deal, it was agreed an Aslef/company committee would monitor OBS establishment levels to make sure there were enough OBS to cover every scheduled train.
A few years on does Aslef still control the OBS establishment level & by what method?

 

[Horizon22]

Are they paid a bonus per ticket scanned? It seems to have been successful with other ToCs. If OBS are not out and about then there are recruitment and management issues. When guards first became OBS there will have been staff who were annoyed with their job being downgraded but after seven years those people should have moved on or retired. Its a customer service role and people should have been recruited that actually like interacting with passengers. I would like to see OBS introduced on some DOO services e.g. Great Northern but that will be difficult to justify if GTR have OBS in the cab most of the time.

They recruited loads of customer service people, on top of the ex-guards and ex-revenue staff. Over time perhaps assessments & management has waned and staff know they can get away with behaviours maybe they couldn’t 5 years ago. Like many things in the railway, their performance has probably declined due to morale issues, pay etc.

 

[43066]

Just travelled from Victoria to Burgess Hill, and the on board supervisor has spent the entirety of the journey in the back cab. As they therefore don’t appear to be required for the operation of the train, nor are they providing any ‘customer experience’ benefits, is there any point to their existence and should Southern therefore be a fully DOO railway such as Thameslink is?

I’d turn that around and ask whether the Southern should have remained fully guarded. In my view, if you’re going to have a second person on board, it’s best that they’re a fully trained guard, actively involved in the running of the train. The OBS role is a step removed from this, and vulnerable to removal, so perhaps no surprise they aren’t particularly motivated/engaged (and the general industry malaise that @Horizon22 correctly alludes to above will also be a factor).

Clearly some OBS will be better than others, but having nobody aboard at all a la Southeastern metro and Thameslink guarantees no “customer experience” benefits, removes a deterrent to fare dodging and anti social behaviour, and makes things that much harder for wheelchair users. It also won’t make fares any cheaper, so it’s an odd thing for passengers to be calling for (albeit I seem to recall from the GTR dispute that most passengers do want to see a staff presence).

 

[moonarrow458]

On Southern services to/from Gatwick Airport and London Victoria, i have never seen ticket checks. About 50% of the time the OBS will make an announcement, but patrolling the train is very rare.

Seperately do the Southern services London Bridge to Epsom, Victoria to Dorking/Horsham via Epsom, and Victoria to Epsom Downs via Selhurst carry an OBS, or are they run completely DOO?

 

[PGAT]

On Southern services to/from Gatwick Airport and London Victoria, i have never seen ticket checks. About 50% of the time the OBS will make an announcement, but patrolling the train is very rare.

Seperately do the Southern services London Bridge to Epsom, Victoria to Dorking/Horsham via Epsom, and Victoria to Epsom Downs via Selhurst carry an OBS, or are they run completely DOO?

Never been ticket checked on any of these routes. It may be done on the Dorking - Horsham section as the intermediate stations are unstaffed, but I haven’t travelled on that bit long enough to confirm or deny it

 

[MrJeeves]

Seperately do the Southern services London Bridge to Epsom, Victoria to Dorking/Horsham via Epsom, and Victoria to Epsom Downs via Selhurst carry an OBS, or are they run completely DOO?

As per my earlier post (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-obss.260567/post-6572294), these services should all carry an OBS:

a) All Services running on the Brighton Main Line (BML) which as at 21 August 2016 were operated with a conductor.
b) Services to East Grinstead.
c) Services between Reigate/Redhill and Tonbridge.
d) Services between Horsham and Dorking.
e) Services between Three Bridges/Horsham/Arun Valley.
f) Brighton/Haywards Heath to East Coastway.
g) Brighton/Haywards Heath to West Coastway.

It may be done on the Dorking - Horsham section as the intermediate stations are unstaffed, but I haven’t travelled on that bit long enough to confirm or deny it

I've only taken it once and I don't remember being checked.

 

[Recessio]

Never even seen an OBS from London to Dorking.

Regularly see OBS (or Guards?) Lewes to Seaford and they're really good - especially holding the doors at Lewes to allow passengers with suitcase to get on a Seaford train via the lifts if the arriving train from London is late.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Are these former guards/conductors whose role has been downgraded to OBS? If so, probably no surprise that they have no motivation to do the job

 

[winks]

The OP was travelling early / late evening so perhaps the OBS made the decision to work from the back cab.

Also, given what’s happened with the pay dispute there is now very little goodwill amongst staff so why would they put themselves out? They’re not going to , especially when the management are also demoralised / not interested. Unfortunately I have witnessed this since travelling on Southern for 15 years.

Other parts of the public sector fair equally the same believe me.

 

[Facing Back]

The OP was travelling early / late evening so perhaps the OBS made the decision to work from the back cab.

Also, given what’s happened with the pay dispute there is now very little goodwill amongst staff so why would they put themselves out? They’re not going to , especially when the management are also demoralised / not interested. Unfortunately I have witnessed this since travelling on Southern for 15 years.

Other parts of the public sector fair equally the same believe me.

Is a person who's role is explicitly customer service "putting themselves out" by ensuring that they are visible to the public they are providing that service too? Whilst I can appreciate the safety aspects of late night trains at weekends or the practicalities on crush-loaded trains it does seem that the default location for an OBS is moving back and forth throughout the train. It should not require "good will" to do something that is a normal part of the role. Are you suggesting that they are unlikely to be caught or disciplined and therefore it is understandable or acceptable?

 

[43066]

Is a person who's role is explicitly customer service "putting themselves out" by ensuring that they are visible to the public they are providing that service too? Whilst I can appreciate the safety aspects of late night trains at weekends or the practicalities on crush-loaded trains it does seem that the default location for an OBS is moving back and forth throughout the train. It should not require "good will" to do something that is a normal part of the role. Are you suggesting that they are unlikely to be caught or disciplined and therefore it is understandable or acceptable?

The reality with this, and many other railway roles, is that they involve extensive lone working and supervision is difficult. Therefore, where motivation is low, performance will be affected and people will do as little as they can get away with.

Incentives such as payments for scanning tickets, reward vouchers for positive customer feedback, attendance bonuses etc. are good ways of driving positive behaviours (I’m not sure whether OBSs have these schemes, but if they don’t, they should). Fundamentally the OBS role is a bit of a fudge, and it comes as no surprise to me that people upthread report tickets being checked more thoroughly and more often on guarded trains, where the guard’s active role naturally translates to more motivation/involvement.