Should the closed stations between Preston and Lancaster be reopened? ?

[Bald Rick]

I'd be very disappointed if you went to all the trouble of building stations, 4-tracking to provide extra capacity, and then didn't put in some extra services to take advantage of the new capacity. I'd go as far as to say it wouldn't be worth doing if you weren't going to provide some additional trains. As noted upthread, I'd hope you'd see something like a half-hourly Morecambe-Lancaster-Preston-somewhere replacing the existing Morecambe service to serve all the new stations. And maybe also have the somewhat irregular Northern Barrow/Windermere trains also call at Bailrigg.

Then we’re into building new platforms at Preston…

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Barrow/Windermere aren't "somewhat irregular", they're very regular, precisely once per hour in fact. The destination swaps from Barrow to Windermere 3-4 times a day (I forget how many it is at the moment) but the basic service is hourly clockface.

Then we’re into building new platforms at Preston…

Maybe. Unless there's something we can link them to. It'd need bi-modes, but you could get one hourly service by running through from Ormskirk and linking the Colne-Blackpool S back up as it was for years. The other one would be more difficult - if the Preston-Vic was reinstated and the paths worked you could link it to that, but I don't think anything else terminates at Preston from the south at the moment?

I don't know about whether you could shift Ormskirk around and still path it on the WCML, but could you get half hourly clockface between the Barrow/Windermere and an additional Ormskirk-Morecambe? If so that is a reasonable answer.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Barrow/Windermere aren't "somewhat irregular", they're very regular, precisely once per hour in fact. The destination swaps from Barrow to Windermere 3-4 times a day (I forget how many it is at the moment) but the basic service is hourly clockface.

Runs to check the timetable. Oh yes, my apologies. You're quite correct. My memory (from a couple of years ago) was of hourly between Barrow and Lancaster, with only some of the services carrying on south of Lancaster. I guess either my memory is faulty or the service has improved since then. I also see that basically every train stops everywhere between Lancaster and Barrow: I seem to remember at one point some of the trains ran semi-fast, missing some of the smaller stations between Lancaster and Barrow?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Runs to check the timetable. Oh yes, my apologies. You're quite correct. My memory (from a couple of years ago) was of hourly between Barrow and Lancaster, with only some of the services carrying on south of Lancaster. I guess either my memory is faulty or the service has improved since then. I also see that basically every train stops everywhere between Lancaster and Barrow: I seem to remember at one point some of the trains ran semi-fast, missing some of the smaller stations between Lancaster and Barrow?

In the latter days of TransPennine Express' operation it was indeed as you describe. It's much more sensible now, being integrated into the Manchester-Preston 4tph service (the two Blackpools, Barrow/Windermere and the TPE Scotland when they can be bothered to run it).

 

[AlastairFraser]

These two statements seem to have opposite arguments!

The A6 north of the motorway isn't very busy because people mostly go on the motorway. The A6 south of the motorway into Preston itself is VERY busy.

Bletchleyite neatly summarised what I meant. It's rammed south of the M55 on an average day. I don't know which time you've used it, but from about 7am to 10am each day and 2pm to 7pm, it's rammed.
Partly because there is no park and ride north of Preston and neither of the existing ones are easy to get to from that side.
Even a bus park and ride would still take 15-20 mins on the bus into Preston, while the train would take 5 mins, plus a few mins for getting down to the platform.
And you don't have to pay for Preston parking when you get there (which isn't horrifically expensive, but the fuel saving from not being stuck in traffic, plus parking would be more than a price of a train ticket.)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's a difficult one. Ideally you want direct access from that M55 roundabout, but if it's not possible, off Newsham Hall Lane near the actual village centre would be an idea.
Or you could build a Thanet Parkway style station.
At least the railway boundary looks like it's wide enough for loops,

I don't have better pictures than these. All taken from Newsham Hall Lane bridge. As the Barton loop is in these views it is already three track. This must be where you are referring to?

and you'd only have to replace one minor bridge further up to accommodate them.

I assume you mean Station Lane Bridge at Barton? Photo below is taken from Station Lane Bridge Barton - no room east because of all the houses- so west?

 

[eldomtom2]

I think this thread demonstrates British Exceptionalism in regards to Public Transport nicely. You have an idea which might have legs being dismissed out of hand by those who are known to be in the industry while it can be contrasted with what our European Neighbours do and it shows how differently our rail industry likes to think of itself.

Currently it feels like we are in an odd era of the railways as they have gone through cycles of growth and closure while currently they are in stagnation with only projects with massive business cases get built and then they outperform said business case quickly.

I think a good chunk of this is a refusal to immediately look at how can this be made viable through external factors but only looking at worst case scenarios and then dismissing without further thought.

I wouldn't call it British exceptionalism - I'd say it's a common problem for people within an industry to get stuck in a "that's the way things are" mindset. It's only really exceptionalism if it's a "other countries would do things better if they did it like we do" mindset, which I don't often see - normally it's a more fatalistic "they have different circumstances" mindset, which of course in some areas is true and in some areas is false.
But I do agree that a "can't be improved, it'll be too difficult" mindset is a bit too common, at least among people who post here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't call it British exceptionalism - I'd say it's a common problem for people within an industry to get stuck in a "that's the way things are" mindset. It's only really exceptionalism if it's a "other countries would do things better if they did it like we do" mindset, which I don't often see - normally it's a more fatalistic "they have different circumstances" mindset, which of course in some areas is true and in some areas is false.
But I do agree that a "can't be improved, it'll be too difficult" mindset is a bit too common, at least among people who post here.

Lack of integration would be part of that. In Switzerland, for instance, Garstang and Catteral would be viable because there'd be an integrated bus service to and around the village timed to meet an hourly train (it probably doesn't justify more than that).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Lack of integration would be part of that. In Switzerland, for instance, Garstang and Catteral would be viable because there'd be an integrated bus service to and around the village timed to meet an hourly train (it probably doesn't justify more than that).

Which at least Broughton does have in fairness (though not integrated of course!). My mother uses that bus all the time (free bus pass and all that!). I still would spend available money on things other than new stations on the WCML between Preston and Lancaster though. I dont think the Business case would be particularly strong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which at least Broughton does have in fairness (though not integrated of course!). My mother uses that bus all the time (free bus pass and all that!). I still would spend available money on things other than new stations on the WCML between Preston and Lancaster though. I dont think the Business case would be particularly strong.

Lancaster could certainly stand serious improvements to its public transport, being a very car-unfriendly city that people mostly nonetheless access by car (for those who haven't been there, it's kind of like a more working-class, hillier Oxford or Cambridge - quite high density, mostly terraced housing, old layout and poor parking and roads with severe congestion). However other than Bailrigg which might be well-used by university students plus as a "Lancaster South Parkway", enhancing the bus service would likely provide best for that local need at least. Though I potentially *could* be sold on a "Preston North Parkway" by the motorway as well.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Though I potentially *could* be sold on a "Preston North Parkway" by the motorway as well.

As I have alluded to and hopefully illustrated in previous posts, it would need to be on farming land i think after the Sandygate lane bridge -so would need Sandygate Lane extending to the car park and station and then close to M55 roundabout too. You cant do it at Lightfoot Lane as the embankments are ridiculously high and steep.

Next time I am home, I will take a few photographs to illustrate.

I am sure Cottam Parkway is getting built. There was a thread on it a while ago. That may weaken the business case as it would take some Broughton, Woodplumpton, Catforth, Bartle, Cottam potential customers away.

 

[The exile]

That stretch is far from .... (Correct that for you).

Thank you - I blame that on a bumpy turbo on the other route between Swindon and Bristol.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But I do agree that a "can't be improved, it'll be too difficult expensive" mindset is a bit too common, at least among people who post here.

Corrected that for you!

Reckon that the likely high cost is quite often the deciding factor, but otherwise, you make some valid points.

 

[Bald Rick]

But I do agree that a "can't be improved, it'll be too difficult" mindset is a bit too common, at least among people who post here.

Not sure if that’s aimed at me or not, fair enough if it is… but, for the avoidance of doubt…

I‘m absolutely not of the “sorry it’s all too difficult, go away” mindset.

I have been in this industry over 30 years, and had a hand in building new stations, upgraded existing lines (linespeed, capacity, loops, four tracking, you name it), building new lines, from the smallest projects to the largest. I’ve lost count how much cash I have got through the investment authority prices, but it’s certainly over £3bn. And then I’ve also spent time operating and maintaining the railway at the sharp end - learning (often the hard way) what works and what doesn’t.

Whilst I might lack tact at times, I do have the experience Of what makes a good railway project.

So, when I post on here explaining what will work and what won’t, and when it’s the latter - it’s not “too difficult” but it is based on my hard won experience of the reality of improving this railway that I love.

 

[AlastairFraser]

View attachment 138326View attachment 138327View attachment 138328

I don't have better pictures than these. All taken from Newsham Hall Lane bridge. As the Barton loop is in these views it is already three track. This must be where you are referring to?




I assume you mean Station Lane Bridge at Barton? Photo below is taken from Station Lane Bridge Barton - no room east because of all the houses- so west?

View attachment 138330

Newsham Hall Lane yes, and the station would need to be to the west. I was more thinking of 4 platforms on long loops (shorter on the northern side of Newsham Hall Lane) with a high speed turnouts at the southern end, so the minor bridge I'm talking about is the track section of Sandygate Lane down the line towards Preston.

As I have alluded to and hopefully illustrated in previous posts, it would need to be on farming land i think after the Sandygate lane bridge -so would need Sandygate Lane extending to the car park and station and then close to M55 roundabout too. You cant do it at Lightfoot Lane as the embankments are ridiculously high and steep.

Next time I am home, I will take a few photographs to illustrate.

I am sure Cottam Parkway is getting built. There was a thread on it a while ago. That may weaken the business case as it would take some Broughton, Woodplumpton, Catforth, Bartle, Cottam potential customers away.

Cottam Parkway will take some traffic away, but Fulwood is big enough to support a station nearer than Cottam on its own, without all the Garstang/Longridge/Wyre villages traffic, who won't want to trek further into Preston.
If it was proposed to be accessed off the new Preston Western distributor, then it would be more of contender for North Preston/North of Preston traffic, but the site is too far east for that.

 

[eldomtom2]

Not sure if that’s aimed at me or not, fair enough if it is… but, for the avoidance of doubt…

I‘m absolutely not of the “sorry it’s all too difficult, go away” mindset.

I have been in this industry over 30 years, and had a hand in building new stations, upgraded existing lines (linespeed, capacity, loops, four tracking, you name it), building new lines, from the smallest projects to the largest. I’ve lost count how much cash I have got through the investment authority prices, but it’s certainly over £3bn. And then I’ve also spent time operating and maintaining the railway at the sharp end - learning (often the hard way) what works and what doesn’t.

I didn't say that this attitude was opposed to all new projects...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Realistically, I don't think we can blame railway professionals for pointing out the immense costs and practical difficulties associated with these kinds of enhancement projects. At the same time, to me it seems obvious that partial 4-tracking and opening some local stations between Lancaster and Preston is a perfect example of the kind of thing we should be doing in so many places across the country if we want a decent sustainable transport network in which a sufficient proportion of journeys are made by public transport that we don't end up with horrendously clogged up, polluted, roads in places like Lancaster and Preston: Railways excel when you have large numbers of people making similar journeys along transport corridors. Here you have a transport corridor that amply meets that criteria, and yet we are apparently unable to provide a reasonable commuter service along that corridor. I think we do need to ask questions about how the UK has got itself into a state where providing this kind of improvement has become so expensive - but I guess that's getting off-topic for this thread.

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn't say that this attitude was opposed to all new projects...

sorry I don’t understand what you mean.

 

[eldomtom2]

Realistically, I don't think we can blame railway professionals for pointing out the immense costs and practical difficulties associated with these kinds of enhancement projects. At the same time, to me it seems obvious that partial 4-tracking and opening some local stations between Lancaster and Preston is a perfect example of the kind of thing we should be doing in so many places across the country if we want a decent sustainable transport network in which a sufficient proportion of journeys are made by public transport that we don't end up with horrendously clogged up, polluted, roads in places like Lancaster and Preston: Railways excel when you have large numbers of people making similar journeys along transport corridors. Here you have a transport corridor that amply meets that criteria, and yet we are apparently unable to provide a reasonable commuter service along that corridor. I think we do need to ask questions about how the UK has got itself into a state where providing this kind of improvement has become so expensive - but I guess that's getting off-topic for this thread.

I don't object to people pointing out difficulties. I object to treating those difficulties as making it not worth doing (which is not the same as "not possible in the present political climate"), especially when it's usually tied to a complacency about the need to shift travel to rail.

sorry I don’t understand what you mean.

When I criticise people for their attitude towards potential improvements, I am not saying they have that attitude to all improvements.

 

[TheWalrus]

With clever modelling, using a variety of datasets.

Hundreds? be serious. Lancaster Uni isn't that big, and students can get 4 in a cab for a reasonable bill. Even well-served rail routes like Newcastle-Durham-York-Leeds don't see students apart from on a handful of trains. And students get discounts, so the revenue is less valuable.
On that part of the WCML the key revenue is Anglo-Scottish traffic principally between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester, Birmingham and London (I.e. the 2 largest cities in Scotland and the 3 largest cities in England and the UK). This traffic is rather time-sensitive and the line needs to press the capacity for all it's worth to work in the mix of Local trains to Windermere & Barrow and freight heading up to the central belt. If you did try and run a Preston-Lancaster service you'd need to send it further up the line to turn round or take a long time over the slow junctions reversing at Lancaster.
The only settlement of any size is Garstang, which is 7,000 people but 1.2miles from a potential station site.

The buses are very busy up there it’s not unheard of to fill deckers on uni runs during term time.

 

[randyrippley]

Lack of integration would be part of that. In Switzerland, for instance, Garstang and Catteral would be viable because there'd be an integrated bus service to and around the village timed to meet an hourly train (it probably doesn't justify more than that).

So you'd have a bus doing a circuit of Garstang and Caterall, taking the best of an hour around the housing estates, to a new station a mile away from the town (presumably next to the Kenlis Arms) down a winding narrow lane, to catch a train for ten miles to Preston, Lancaster or Morecambe stations, none of which are near the industrial areas where people need to get to. Meaning a second bus ride needed.........Far quicker to catch a bus

As for these new stations, where are you going to put them? There's no room at Bailrigg so it would have to be Oubeck, which floods, would need at least two new bridges both with problematic dagerous access to the A6, and a shuttle bus to the university. Galgate is only a mile from Oubeck - and the track is on a high narrow embankment/viaduct. Your only real option is a park and ride in the Hampson Green / Brockholes / Bay Horse area, but that would INCREASE A6 traffic. Garstang - only option is a mile out of town down a country lane. Room for a car park, but bad road access

 

[JamieL]

One can only imagine what the railway builders of the mid-nineteenth century would have thought if they were shown this picture and told, "we can't imagine how you could build a railway station in that location, there is simply no room".

 

[randyrippley]

That's the A6 on the left behind the hedge. There isn't room to put two new tracks plus platforms. You'd also have to replace the bridge with something spanning four tracks - its already dangerous due to the sharp turns
Looking from the same location in a different direction

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[zwk500]

One can only imagine what the railway builders of the mid-nineteenth century would have thought if they were shown this picture and told, "we can't imagine how you could build a railway station in that location, there is simply no room".

You have completely misrepresented what people have said.

2 platforms can easily be fitted in, but what good are they if nobody can access them? If you told a C19 builder about things like disabled access requirements he'd have asked for whatever you'd been drinking.
Then there's the capacity issue. What good are platforms if trains cannot stop without delaying the expresses? If you'd told the management of the C19 railway company that the all-3rd class local stopping train had priority over the London-Glasgow Express you'd have been swiftly out on the cobbles, hard.
So loops need to be built, but loops on their own are no good as the local train will be sitting around waiting for the express to overtake, so you need a decent length of 4-track, which doesn't fit in your street view picture.

 

[JamieL]

You have completely misrepresented what people have said.

2 platforms can easily be fitted in, but what good are they if nobody can access them? If you told a C19 builder about things like disabled access requirements he'd have asked for whatever you'd been drinking.
Then there's the capacity issue. What good are platforms if trains cannot stop without delaying the expresses? If you'd told the management of the C19 railway company that the all-3rd class local stopping train had priority over the London-Glasgow Express you'd have been swiftly out on the cobbles, hard.
So loops need to be built, but loops on their own are no good as the local train will be sitting around waiting for the express to overtake, so you need a decent length of 4-track, which doesn't fit in your street view picture.

Don't the loops already exist?

I know, I know. The railway just can't help here and its all too difficult and everyone should just use buses or drive.

 

[Bald Rick]

When I criticise people for their attitude towards potential improvements, I am not saying they have that attitude to all improvements.

Do you mean that people have to support every railway project proposed, regardless of its utility and effectiveness?

 

[randyrippley]

Don't the loops already exist?
View attachment 138504
I know, I know. The railway just can't help here and its all too difficult and everyone should just use buses or drive.

That's one loop, it's half a mile further south than your first photo, too short anyway, there's another dangerous bridge just north which would need replacing (too narrow, corners too tight, dangerous junction with the A6). You have just got room to put a second loop and station there, but you'd have to cut back into the hill on the left, car parking would be an issue - and no-one would use it anyway because of the walk up the hill. On top of that the area is a flood risk and the earthworks would increase the flooding in Galgate.

 

[JamieL]

That's one loop, it's half a mile further south than your first photo, too short anyway, there's another dangerous bridge just north which would need replacing (too narrow, corners too tight, dangerous junction with the A6). You have just got room to put a second loop and station there, but you'd have to cut back into the hill on the left, car parking would be an issue - and no-one would use it anyway because of the walk up the hill. On top of that the area is a flood risk and the earthworks would increase the flooding in Galgate.

Its also directly opposite the University access so would seem ideal. A footbridge over the A6 to connect to the access road. Does the track flood now?

 

[randyrippley]

Its also directly opposite the University access so would seem ideal. A footbridge over the A6 to connect to the access road. Does the track flood now?

Yes, the Oubeck floods quite badly and the cutting is prone to slippage.

 

[Starmill]

Don't the loops already exist?
View attachment 138504
I know, I know. The railway just can't help here and its all too difficult and everyone should just use buses or drive.

That's not what the posts you're talking about are saying though, is it?

Consider it this way: a whole load of stations have been built where demand has been somewhere between 'disappointing' and 'laughable':

• Reston
• Bow Street
• Worcestershire Parkway
• Stow
• Bermuda Park
• East Midlands Parkway
• Conon Bridge
• Blackridge
• Aylesbury Vale Parkway
• Howwood
• Whitwell
• Creswell
• Corby

And that's just the recent ones, not including older examples in the later BR days.

Other cases involve stations which have opened in locations where demand could have been sufficient to justify stopping, but have been served so poorly they weren't remotely worth it, noting that some are now or will soon be fixed:

• Laurencekirk
• Fishguard & Goodwick
• Soham
• Inverness Airport
• James Cook
• Energlyn & Churchill Park
• Beauly
• Conon Bridge

Finally a number of other projects are certainly nice to have, but mainly just carry existing rail demand, including White Rose and Warrington West.