Should the London Overground run fast services?

[GTR fail]

Would only work on the NLL and Watford DC
e.g. Stratford, Hackney Central, Highbury & Islington, Camden Road, Hampstead Heath, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction, then all stations to Richmond/Clapham

OR
Euston, Queens Park, Willesden Junction, Wembley Central, Harrow and Wealdstone then all stations


Could this work realistically?

 

[bengley]

For your DC line example I would say definitely not as it would reduce the capacity of the line and there are already fast trains to Harrow & Wealdstone in the way of LNWR services. The stations on the section you propose to skip stops aren't that far apart and the time saved would be negligible

For the first example, again, for the same reason, no - if people want faster journeys they are generally available by transferring on the Underground between main line termini

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Would only work on the NLL and Watford DC
e.g. Stratford, Hackney Central, Highbury & Islington, Camden Road, Hampstead Heath, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction, then all stations to Richmond/Clapham

OR
Euston, Queens Park, Willesden Junction, Wembley Central, Harrow and Wealdstone then all stations


Could this work realistically?

No its better with an all stopping service as frequency means that journey times dont matter. Fast services would reduce capacity

 

[Kite159]

The "fast" NLL service will soon catch up with the previous stopper, where there is a loop between Camden Road & Highbury, to allow the fast to loop a stopper when it calls at Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury that will remove the ability for freight trains to be held there.

Likewise on the DC line, there are no loops so a fast service will soon catch up with the previous stopper (be it London Overground or Bakerloo)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Post HS2 an all day Watford shuttle on the WCML deals with the "semifast" needs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would only work on the NLL and Watford DC
e.g. Stratford, Hackney Central, Highbury & Islington, Camden Road, Hampstead Heath, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction, then all stations to Richmond/Clapham

OR
Euston, Queens Park, Willesden Junction, Wembley Central, Harrow and Wealdstone then all stations


Could this work realistically?

No, it wouldn’t work. The NLL is essentially at capacity. Running trains fast will simply catch up the previous train, which is often not another Overground service.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

No, it wouldn’t work. The NLL is essentially at capacity. Running trains fast will simply catch up the previous train, which is often not another Overground service.

and in order to make it worth while will reduce capacity

 

[NSE]

One of the reasons LO works so well it’s the turn up and go nature. Whilst I don’t doubt there would be customers and a market for limited stops, you’d start having stations with irregular timed trains, catching up other services. Just not worth it.

 

[StephenHunter]

Would only work on the NLL and Watford DC
e.g. Stratford, Hackney Central, Highbury & Islington, Camden Road, Hampstead Heath, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction, then all stations to Richmond/Clapham

OR
Euston, Queens Park, Willesden Junction, Wembley Central, Harrow and Wealdstone then all stations


Could this work realistically?

The fast services on the DC Line already exist, operated by LNWR.

 

[Bald Rick]

and in order to make it worth while will reduce capacity

Well you could take the freight off, but then that would severely reduce the supply of wine, beer, non perishable foods, consumer products, aggregates, concrete, etc across half the country.

 

[cle]

The fast services on the DC Line already exist, operated by LNWR.

Maybe one day after HS2, both Queens Park and Willesden Junction could rejoin the semi-fasts - arguments for both (QP at 8 car limits though) - but then they'd be even less fast for the folks of Tring and Hemel that use them.

DC needs a more metro frequency to get usage up. It's very under-used. Maybe as part of the Bakerloo stock procurement, but the depot at Stonebridge is a little short of Wembley Central - where a high frequency service could gladly end, with lots of development in recent years - the WCML semis returned there after the Southern WLL blazed that trail back.

But the NLL has shown that 6tph is the tipping point for a real metro (Shenfield also taught us this), and going 3 -> 4tph is not as big an inflection as touted. Folks on the WLL still check times. Those on the NLL between Willesden and Stratford don't.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Maybe one day after HS2, both Queens Park and Willesden Junction could rejoin the semi-fasts - arguments for both (QP at 8 car limits though) - but then they'd be even less fast for the folks of Tring and Hemel that use them.

DC needs a more metro frequency to get usage up. It's very under-used. Maybe as part of the Bakerloo stock procurement, but the depot at Stonebridge is a little short of Wembley Central - where a high frequency service could gladly end, with lots of development in recent years - the WCML semis returned there after the Southern WLL blazed that trail back.

But the NLL has shown that 6tph is the tipping point for a real metro (Shenfield also taught us this), and going 3 -> 4tph is not as big an inflection as touted. Folks on the WLL still check times. Those on the NLL between Willesden and Stratford don't.

Are you saying tipping point as in, its the point at which people no longer bother checking a timetable.

 

[Whistler40145]

The fast services on the DC Line already exist, operated by LNWR.

Don't you mean on the WCML Slow Lines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe one day after HS2, both Queens Park and Willesden Junction could rejoin the semi-fasts - arguments for both (QP at 8 car limits though) - but then they'd be even less fast for the folks of Tring and Hemel that use them.

Post HS2 it is planned to have all day Watford shuttles.

 

[Wolfie]

Don't you mean on the WCML Slow Lines?

Absolutely.

 

[Mikey C]

The North London line is too busy for this to work

Very occasionally, when there have been problems causing a gap in service and bunching, they will run a train fast to try and recover the timetable. A real bonus if the train is going where you want to go!

 

[StephenHunter]

Don't you mean on the WCML Slow Lines?

That's still faster than the Overground, though.

 

[JKF]

The overground seems to work very well from my experience of it, at least the north London part, why fix what isn’t broken? As others have said, a good frequency saves people more time than limiting stops on a handful of services at the expense of keeping a steady regular pattern.

 

[cle]

Post HS2 it is planned to have all day Watford shuttles.

Back calling at Queens Park? Or the slows in general.

The Wembley Central platforms situation could need some attention, if there are 3-4tph each direction stopping.

And tipping point of being a metro above, yes - turn up and go/no timetable ‘mass transit’ mentality but also in terms of mass usage. But they are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back calling at Queens Park? Or the slows in general.

The Wembley Central platforms situation could need some attention, if there are 3-4tph each direction stopping.

And tipping point of being a metro above, yes - turn up and go/no timetable ‘mass transit’ mentality but also in terms of mass usage. But they are two sides of the same coin.

Don't know about Queens Park specifically, but 2tph of AC Watford shuttles are planned.

 

[HST43257]

could they have Willesden AC line platforms for these shuttles?

 

[Bald Rick]

could they have Willesden AC line platforms for these shuttles?

Could, yes, but for what benefit?

 

[JonathanH]

Could, yes, but for what benefit?

There is a strong incentive to avoid Central London in the fare structure for London and the South East. Therefore platforms on the WCML slow lines would facilitate passengers travelling from the London Overground routes to the WCML to be able to avoid London yet reach the northern destinations quicker (like they can at West Hampstead).

Of course, building infrastructure so that passengers can pay less isn't really in the interests of the people paying for it.

One for the 'not happening' list.