• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Should the NHS refuse treatment for people that haven’t had the vaccination?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Highlandspring

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2017
Messages
2,777
What about charging people after treatment if it turns out to be self-inflicted? E.g. refusing a vaccine but then getting ill because of it.

So you can’t actually prove your young son looked both ways before he crossed the road and was hit by the car? That’ll be £200,000 please, plus £3500 for the ride in the ambulance. Oh and VAT on top of that of course. Sorry we couldn’t save his leg by the way.”
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,389
Location
The White Rose County
I still don't get this idea that if you had a Vaccine you're not carrying the virus!

Those who have had the Vaccine are probably more likely to be carrying the virus than those who haven't as those who have had it probably don't care about catching it and will probably be less careful.

Why are we even having this discussion?
 

DelayRepay

Established Member
Joined
21 May 2011
Messages
2,929
So you can’t actually prove your young son looked both ways before he crossed the road and was hit by the car? That’ll be £200,000 please, plus £3500 for the ride in the ambulance. Oh and VAT on top of that of course. Sorry we couldn’t save his leg by the way.”

Or how about "It's a shame you didn't go to the Doctor when you found that lump because you were worried about the cost. Sadly, you left it too late, and there's nothing we can do now. Would you like to pay for this consultation by cash or credit card? I'm afraid we can't offer you an instalment plan as you might not live long enough to pay it back'
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
I still don't get this idea that if you had a Vaccine you're not carrying the virus!

Those who have had the Vaccine are probably more likely to be carrying the virus than those who haven't as those who have had it probably don't care about catching it and will probably be less careful.

Why are we even having this discussion?

The evidence suggests that vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Why are we even having this discussion?
Exactly. Refusing medical treatment to those deemed unworthy is the stuff of dystopian nightmares, and those who think it's a good idea need to be very sure they won't ever be on the receiving end of a refusal.

"I didn't think they'd eat my face," complains woman who voted for the Leopards Eating Faces Party.
 

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,916
Location
Leeds
Well by now hospital workers will have been offered both doses, so their risk is greatly reduced. The same is true of most of the vulnerable people, indeed I'm not vulnerable & 51 but am only 2 weeks away from dose two. So that really only leaves the under 50s at risk in the coming weeks, and currently 32+ are being offered their first dose. So really the risk is only really present in the least vulnerable groups, and that risk is tiny.

This is the danger of turning of people not taking up the vaccine. No matter what you feel on a personal level, they are not generating anything like the kind of risk being touted. In a few more weeks the UK will have way over half the adult population protected, we have been at the forefront in developing treatments and we have even had a hand in the vaccination development / testing. I think it might be time to accept that we are coming over the worst, and people not choosing to have it are not the demons they are made out to be.
This isn’t just about ‘risk’, it’s also about reducing the impact on the NHS. In the last wave, those between 25 and 50 made up a third of the inpatients across the country. Yes, their risk of dying is reduced but they still require hospitalisation due to the severity of the infection. This is why vaccination across the entire age range is so important.

Hmm thin edge of the Wedge.

Smokers with Lung cancer - Nope they chose to smoke.
Eating related disorders (such as obesity) - A lot of lifestyle issues here.
Broken bones - You chose to play sports that risk broken bones

We could start getting into arguments - you didn't exercise therefore no treatment.

Every day we have thousands of people that are in hospital for preventable treatments - it is a hard one on where to draw the line.
Well… Some transplant lists require a patient to have detoxed prior to being eligible for a donor organ…
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Well… Some transplant lists require a patient to have detoxed prior to being eligible for a donor organ…
George Best certainly tarnished his reputation by continuing to drink after his liver transplant, with fatal results.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,889
Location
Central Belt
Well… Some transplant lists require a patient to have detoxed prior to being eligible for a donor organ…
this is true. Along with some operations require weight loss before they will take place. But they don’t deny any form of treatment. They will try and stabilise the problem. Then have the we could give you a transplant but you need to help yourself first.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,775
Will these people receive a rebate on the taxation they pay to ensure the NHS treats everyone?
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,760
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Only those of us that actually do pay tax
Only those with very good accountants, or those who live off the grid have even a chance of not paying tax.

This isn’t just about ‘risk’, it’s also about reducing the impact on the NHS. In the last wave, those between 25 and 50 made up a third of the inpatients across the country. Yes, their risk of dying is reduced but they still require hospitalisation due to the severity of the infection. This is why vaccination across the entire age range is so important.
<bangs head repeatedly on desk>

Hospitalisation rates have fallen massively because:
  1. The most likely to fall ill and require hospital treatment have all been offered vaccinations.
  2. The ratio of 25-50 year olds needing treatment is way lower than those in the 50+. This is because it is understood that the older you are, the greater the risk. And those more at risk have all been offered vaccinations, as per #1.
You are offering a strawman argument above because the younger you get, the less statistical risk there is from becoming seriously ill. That doesn't mean people between 25-50 won't become ill, but the rate is way below that of say those between 65-90. All of which means the risk to the NHS is reduce greatly. I think its time you brought yourself up to speed.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,296
If they refuse the vaccine, for no 'good' reason, then they should waive the rights for Hospital treatment, harsh ? yes, but fair to everyone who have the well being of everyone else in mind

mods note, split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-return-of-local-restrictions-guidance.217830/
No, that would be ethically atrocious. What might (though I doubt it) be justified would be to put particular constraints on how the unvaccinated receive treatment if their lack of vaccination means that they represent a risk to staff and other patients.

The question confuses personal and public benefits from vaccination, failing to understand the proportionality of risk. There are arguments for limiting access to public services to the unvaccinated (as in laws like those in California on access to educational facilities), but specifically to protect the community as a whole.
 

Jonny

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,562
If they refuse the vaccine, for no 'good' reason, then they should waive the rights for Hospital treatment, harsh ? yes, but fair to everyone who have the well being of everyone else in mind

mods note, split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-return-of-local-restrictions-guidance.217830/

It's not refuse, it's decline for having the vaccine. The choice of words matters. If you want public sector-provided healthcare, it has to be near-unconditional.
 

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,916
Location
Leeds
s
Only those with very good accountants, or those who live off the grid have even a chance of not paying tax.


<bangs head repeatedly on desk>

Hospitalisation rates have fallen massively because:
  1. The most likely to fall ill and require hospital treatment have all been offered vaccinations.
  2. The ratio of 25-50 year olds needing treatment is way lower than those in the 50+. This is because it is understood that the older you are, the greater the risk. And those more at risk have all been offered vaccinations, as per #1.
You are offering a strawman argument above because the younger you get, the less statistical risk there is from becoming seriously ill. That doesn't mean people between 25-50 won't become ill, but the rate is way below that of say those between 65-90. All of which means the risk to the NHS is reduce greatly. I think its time you brought yourself up to speed.
At which point did I say that 25-50 made up a majority or was greater than those 50+? I didn't. I said in the last wave, those between 25 and 50 made up 1/3 of hospitalisations. Vaccination has to continue in this age group as much as other age groups to prevent them becoming seriously ill and ending up in hospital.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,760
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
s

At which point did I say that 25-50 made up a majority or was greater than those 50+? I didn't. I said in the last wave, those between 25 and 50 made up 1/3 of hospitalisations. Vaccination has to continue in this age group as much as other age groups to prevent them becoming seriously ill and ending up in hospital.
You were overplaying the severity of the hospitalisations, or at least that is how it comes over. The media did something similar when hospitalisations and deaths in older generations didn't suit the agenda.

Thankfully over 30s can now get theirs, and the 20s will soon follow. So its all a moot point.
 

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,916
Location
Leeds
You were overplaying the severity of the hospitalisations, or at least that is how it comes over. The media did something similar when hospitalisations and deaths in older generations didn't suit the agenda.

Thankfully over 30s can now get theirs, and the 20s will soon follow. So its all a moot point.
25-50 year olds making up 1/3 of the hospitalisations isn’t severe?
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,760
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
25-50 year olds making up 1/3 of the hospitalisations isn’t severe?
The actual numbers were fractions of the older generations. This is because, as stated, the younger you are the less risk of hospitalisation there is. The only reason that this group made up a third was because the older generations were largely protected, and thus were not going to hospital. You're using the same tactics the media used to keep the panic going.
 

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,916
Location
Leeds
The actual numbers were fractions of the older generations. This is because, as stated, the younger you are the less risk of hospitalisation there is. The only reason that this group made up a third was because the older generations were largely protected, and thus were not going to hospital. You're using the same tactics the media used to keep the panic going.
So the data is wrong? 25-50 year olds didn’t make up 1/3 of the hospitalisations?
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,760
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
So the data is wrong? 25-50 year olds didn’t make up 1/3 of the hospitalisations?
For goodness sake, they made up a third of massively reducing hospitalisations only because vaccinations meant that older people were not going to hospital. You've got a sparkling career awaiting you in tabloid journalism.
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,296
The actual numbers were fractions of the older generations. This is because, as stated, the younger you are the less risk of hospitalisation there is. The only reason that this group made up a third was because the older generations were largely protected, and thus were not going to hospital. You're using the same tactics the media used to keep the panic going.

I'm inclined to agree with your general logic about the ratios by now, but if we're talking "over the 3rd wave", that logically includes both the period before vaccinations were starting to achieve a significant effect and addresses the numbers across the whole volume of hospitalisations in that wave. That in turn suggests that you're underplaying the risk levels. It would be useful if @Bayum could confirm the figures being used as the basis for the assertion.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,760
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I'm inclined to agree with your general logic about the ratios by now, but if we're talking "over the 3rd wave", that logically includes both the period before vaccinations were starting to achieve a significant effect and addresses the numbers across the whole volume of hospitalisations in that wave. That in turn suggests that you're underplaying the risk levels. It would be useful if @Bayum could confirm the figures being used as the basis for the assertion.
I did try to get the data from the gov.uk portal, but it wasn't allowing data being extracted for some reason. I'll try again later, but I do remember this debate previously as hospitalisations were going down from the turn of the year that some people tried to argue that the problem had shifted from older people to younger ones because the percentage of younger being seriously ill was increasing. But this was happening because fewer older people were being affected whilst younger generations numbers were largely static.
 

Bertie the bus

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
2,794
If they refuse the vaccine, for no 'good' reason, then they should waive the rights for Hospital treatment, harsh ? yes, but fair to everyone who have the well being of everyone else in mind

mods note, split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-return-of-local-restrictions-guidance.217830/
There is a bit of an ethical question here. A sizeable number of people contracted COVID after admission to hospital and will no doubt continue to in the future. If somebody goes into hospital COVID free and is infected there then whether they have declined the vaccine or not it would be immoral to refuse to treat them. It would also be a ridiculous waste of money if we continued to treat them for what might be a life threatening condition they were admitted for but then let them die anyway because we refused to treat them for COVID.
 
Joined
11 Dec 2018
Messages
54
This kind of issue has been covered in the Independent (link below) although it does go a bit further than just restricting NHS access:

This is what we do about anti-vaxxers: No job. No entry. No NHS access | The Independent
"What shall we do about the anti-vaxxers? A presumptuous question, I know, because they’re human beings, same as the majority of the population who choose to take the Covid-19 vaccines, and we’re all entitled to do what we will or won’t with our own bodies.
But the time has come when the hard choices are looming closer. If we don’t want this Covid crisis to last forever, we need some new simple, guidelines: No jab, no job; no jab, no access to NHS healthcare; no jab, no state education for your kids. No jab, no access to pubs, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, stadiums. No jab, no entry to the UK, and much else.

Who wants their grandma looked after by someone with coronavirus, or teaching in a school full of kids sneezing the Indian variant everywhere, or to watch a football game with someone coughing their viral load all over you? That’s not my idea of freedom.


Society always needs to balance rights against obligations, and, with rare exceptions (on problem health grounds) those refusing a vaccine need to accept what everyone else does, or face the consequences.
It is a critical moment, a point where we can either win the war with the virus, and keep it down to endemic but minimal levels, or lose the struggle forever. So we either get the vaccination programme done, to borrow a phrase, or risk many more lives lost, and never-ending stop-go, on-off lockdowns every time some new variant appears and starts to “spread like wildfire”, as the health secretary graphically puts it.

They need to be taken by those individuals who need convincing about the safety of the vaccine – and millions of successful jabs should prove that point – but decisions have also to be taken by the community as a whole.
Fortunately, no one’s fundamental human rights need to be violated. No one should ever make vaccination compulsory, for that very reason. It would be a violation of their human rights. But those who decline to accept their societal obligations, as is their right, cannot expect life to be just the same as it ever was and they can just go around spreading the virus to other people, vulnerable or not. The rest of us have rights too, including the right to life.
We have to protect the wider population from ill-health, death and the lingering social impact of a fractured economy, stuttering month-to-month in and out of tiers and restrictions. Who wants that to go on forever? Of course, we could try to “learn to live with” the virus and the succession of more vicious variants, but it would cost many lives, and tear society apart and break the NHS – full-on waves of the plague, like in the old days.
As the Tory MP Mark Harper tweeted recently: “Concerning to hear Govt is entertaining the delay of the 21 June unlocking – causing massive problems for many people’s livelihoods – because some people won’t have a jab. Wider society’s fate can’t be sealed by the actions of a small group of people, whatever their reasoning.”



Quite right, which is why the doubtful need to be persuaded and encouraged to do the right thing. There should be far more mobile, drop-in vaccine centres, door-to-door outreach, public information, debunking campaigns, choice of types of vaccines and so on to reach individuals and communities who have missed out on this life-saving jab.
But, if they really are so insistent that the vaccine is dangerous or an instrument of mind control or whatever, then they are free to go vaccine-free, but not to go around infecting, hurting and maybe killing their fellow citizens with impunity. It is discriminatory, certainly, but it is fair discrimination, just as we only allow qualified drivers to be employed as train drivers.
If we discourage irresponsible people from drink-driving, as Andrew Lloyd-Webber argues, or from smoking indoors, or polluting the environment, then surely we can discourage them from spreading a potentially deadly disease? As I say, with rare exceptions of genuine medical justification, everyone who refuses a vaccine could be a killer on the loose, and should be judged accordingly. "
I couldn't get the whole article as I'm not signed up with them. From reading the comments it does appear that people aren't a fan of it so maybe there is hope for society.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,760
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
This kind of issue has been covered in the Independent (link below) although it does go a bit further than just restricting NHS access:

This is what we do about anti-vaxxers: No job. No entry. No NHS access | The Independent

I couldn't get the whole article as I'm not signed up with them. From reading the comments it does appear that people aren't a fan of it so maybe there is hope for society.
I haven't even read the full quote and I am struggling to stop myself from smashing my phone against the wall.

Quite honestly this kind of stupid reporting needs knocking on the head, and those peddling this "No vaccine, no normal life" bull@*£& sent back to the Jobcentre to be retrained as human beings.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
1,014
In answer to the original question. Yes, NHS care should be declined to people who refuse the Vaccination. I and Millions of others, have done our part, followed the rules, and took the Vaccination. Ask yourselves, what good has it done us? Why should we suffer even longer with no answer as to a solution for these refusers, other than delay everyone else's lives. Beyond rediculous now. Thoroughly fed up.

Sadly, I believe there are too many people happy to live the foreseeable future, doing nothing. Why would you want stuff back to normal, if the most exciting thing you ever did was effectively nothing.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,447
Location
The North
This kind of issue has been covered in the Independent (link below) although it does go a bit further than just restricting NHS access:

This is what we do about anti-vaxxers: No job. No entry. No NHS access | The Independent

I couldn't get the whole article as I'm not signed up with them. From reading the comments it does appear that people aren't a fan of it so maybe there is hope for society.
“because they’re human beings, same as the majority of the population who chose to take the Covid-19 vaccines”... I have to ask, who are the non-humans getting vaccinated?!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top