Should the UK still get involved with foreign affairs/military action etc?

[Reliablebeam]

mods note - split from the about conscription

Interesting reading some of the recent responses - I've been away in Europe with work.

I have to agree with a few others. The UK's glory days are behind us. It's time to politely bow out of world affairs. We are not valued or liked, that much comes out from my international network. I was very anti-Brexit, but Europe has France to protect them. Our idiotic government has helped countries like Sweden into NATO when they have kicked large numbers of Brits out post Brexit and take every opportunity to generate upset and aggravation at their border (as has been discussed on here) - what do I gain from any of this? I hate everything done in my name since 2001. No one in UK politics listens...

 

[najaB]

The UK's glory days are behind us. It's time to politely bow out of world affairs. We are not valued or liked, that much comes out from my international network.

I agree that the UK's zenith is behind us, but I disagree that we're neither valued nor liked.

We are still a top ten economy, and a leader on a lot of issues globally.

 

[Silenos]

I agree that the UK's zenith is behind us, but I disagree that we're neither valued nor liked.

We are still a top ten economy, and a leader on a lot of issues globally.

Our preference for short-term gains over long-term investment in infrastructure and new technologies is hurting us economically though, and is likely to see us drop out of the top ten in the medium term.

I agree that there is still some residual respect for British expertise - and affection for individual British experts on a personal basis - in a limited number of areas, but to be frank, the behaviour of our recent governments and the sheer incompetence displayed in international negotiations on a number of fronts has greatly diminished it.

 

[Gloster]

The opinion of those Europeans that I have kept in contact with, which may reflect the sort of people I tend to know, is more sadness that a country that they had a certain admiration and affection for has come so low. These attitudes still, or at least did until recently, hark back to World War II and the stand we took, and our later generosity in helping to rebuild Europe. Now we are seen as inward-looking country that thinks it should be indulged and given a free ride, and then sulks and behaves with childish spite when it doesn’t get what it wants. Nor do they feel that we can be trusted to ‘play the game’; or just trusted full stop.

More widely, on a world-wide basis economic power is far more important as a way of being seen as influential than willy-waving a couple of aircraft-carriers. We not a major economic power on our own and leaving the EU has further reduced our influence: we could have been one of the countries seen as a leader of one of the major economic blocks, but instead we are just a solitary offshore island.

 

[RT4038]

The opinion of those Europeans that I have kept in contact with, which may reflect the sort of people I tend to know, is more sadness that a country that they had a certain admiration and affection for has come so low. These attitudes still, or at least did until recently, hark back to World War II and the stand we took, and our later generosity in helping to rebuild Europe. Now we are seen as inward-looking country that thinks it should be indulged and given a free ride, and then sulks and behaves with childish spite when it doesn’t get what it wants. Nor do they feel that we can be trusted to ‘play the game’; or just trusted full stop.

Of course they are upset with us. A fairly major (if always a bit awkward) contributing member of a 'friendly' club/society/group decides voluntarily to leave - the other members are bound to have some feelings of rejection - much the same would happen at the cricket club or the railway preservation group or church or wherever. Not sure what the sulks or childish spite really are, but I suspect they may be the result of our perception of the club making things more difficult than perhaps necessary in order to discourage or prevent departure (or as a warning to any other members considering same).....? I think we are just as outward looking as ever, just don't want to be in their club because of some of the rules - nothing to do with the relationships between individuals.

Quite what all this has to do with conscription, mind......

Nor do they feel that we can be trusted to ‘play the game’; or just trusted full stop.

Whereas we have always known not to trust 'johnny foreigner', and they clearly have either forgotten or are ignorant of 'perfidious Albion'?

 

[DustyBin]

Interesting reading some of the recent responses - I've been away in Europe with work.

I have to agree with a few others. The UK's glory days are behind us. It's time to politely bow out of world affairs. We are not valued or liked, that much comes out from my international network. I was very anti-Brexit, but Europe has France to protect them. Our idiotic government has helped countries like Sweden into NATO when they have kicked large numbers of Brits out post Brexit and take every opportunity to generate upset and aggravation at their border (as has been discussed on here) - what do I gain from any of this? I hate everything done in my name since 2001. No one in UK politics listens...

I really can’t agree with you. My experience is entirely the opposite; the Europeans I know very much value and like the UK, and whilst they may have felt somewhat shunned by Brexit they’ve come to terms with it (and why it happened).

We may be led by idiots, but as a nation we’re there when it really matters.

I agree that the UK's zenith is behind us, but I disagree that we're neither valued nor liked.

We are still a top ten economy, and a leader on a lot of issues globally.

Top ten economy, top ten (probably five) military power, similarly placed in terms of soft power (more difficult to measure admittedly), and top twenty in terms of population… Not bad for an isolated, miserable little island off the coast of France!

Our preference for short-term gains over long-term investment in infrastructure and new technologies is hurting us economically though, and is likely to see us drop out of the top ten in the medium term.

Possibly; I certainly agree with you in regard to short-termism.

I agree that there is still some residual respect for British expertise - and affection for individual British experts on a personal basis - in a limited number of areas, but to be frank, the behaviour of our recent governments and the sheer incompetence displayed in international negotiations on a number of fronts has greatly diminished it.

Again, I don’t entirely disagree. As above, we’re led by idiots…

The opinion of those Europeans that I have kept in contact with, which may reflect the sort of people I tend to know, is more sadness that a country that they had a certain admiration and affection for has come so low. These attitudes still, or at least did until recently, hark back to World War II and the stand we took, and our later generosity in helping to rebuild Europe. Now we are seen as inward-looking country that thinks it should be indulged and given a free ride, and then sulks and behaves with childish spite when it doesn’t get what it wants. Nor do they feel that we can be trusted to ‘play the game’; or just trusted full stop.

More widely, on a world-wide basis economic power is far more important as a way of being seen as influential than willy-waving a couple of aircraft-carriers. We not a major economic power on our own and leaving the EU has further reduced our influence: we could have been one of the countries seen as a leader of one of the major economic blocks, but instead we are just a solitary offshore island.

My (equally anecdotal) experience is the opposite as per my reply above, so this is probably it. I’m not sure what the widely held consensus is, or if there even is one.

Of course they are upset with us. A fairly major (if always a bit awkward) contributing member of a 'friendly' club/society/group decides voluntarily to leave - the other members are bound to have some feelings of rejection - much the same would happen at the cricket club or the railway preservation group or church or wherever. Not sure what the sulks or childish spite really are, but I suspect they may be the result of the club making things more difficult than perhaps necessary in order to discourage or prevent departure (or as a warning to any other members considering same).....? I think we are just as outward looking as ever, just don't want to be in their club because of some of the rules - nothing to do with the relationships between individuals.

I’m inclined to agree.

Quite what all this has to do with conscription, mind......

Indeed, but there’s always time for a little self-denigration!

 

[najaB]

Top ten economy, top ten (probably five) military power

Given the dire state of recruitment and underfunding/procurement issues, possibly not any more.

 

[RT4038]

I really can’t agree with you. My experience is entirely the opposite; the Europeans I know very much value and like the UK, and whilst they may have felt somewhat shunned by Brexit they’ve come to terms with it (and why it happened).

We may be led by idiots, but as a nation we’re there when it really matters.

I have recently done two extensive trips of train riding and staying in Europe, and with that has come quite a bit of talking about Brexit with fellow travellers and others. Quite agree with you about the majority of feelings, perhaps a little less understanding of why, but quite an interest in hearing a UK citizens view rather than from their media. (And I always take care to emphasise they are my opinions rather than that of the whole population). A charming, if somewhat animated, shop assistant in Zagreb told me that Brexit had damaged his dream of coming to work in Luton. A Canadian tourist went off pop that it was shocking that the older generation in the UK had ruined the dreams of younger people to work in Europe - some deeper questioning of course elicited that one of her UK relatives was affected in this way. However, most people were polite and just interested in talking about the situation, several of the opinion that the UK was always a bit of an outlier in the EU and a couple expressing the view that only the UK would have the guts to go through with it.

The view of their own country being led by idiots is not confined solely to UK citizens though.........

 

[Silenos]

Indeed, but there’s always time for a little self-denigration!

I would suggest, in fact, that it comes from the same place as your comment that we are led by idiots but always there when it counts: a feeling that ‘I know we are better than this’. Of course, views may differ as to the specifics of where and how we could improve…

 

[Enthusiast]

I really can’t agree with you. My experience is entirely the opposite; the Europeans I know very much value and like the UK, and whilst they may have felt somewhat shunned by Brexit they’ve come to terms with it (and why it happened).

And hopefully many of them realise that it is not individual European countries or their people which caused Brexit. It is the EU which people in the UK voted to leave.

A Canadian tourist went off pop that it was shocking that the older generation in the UK had ruined the dreams of younger people to work in Europe - some deeper questioning of course elicited that one of her UK relatives was affected in this way.

And I hope your Canadian acquaintance understood the constitutional position that membership of the EU means for its members. In my experience, many people from outside the EU - especially those from further afield such as Canada and the USA - have little or no idea what membership of the EU entails and are extremely surprised, if not astounded, when they find out. Many of them think it is just a friendly co-operative with committees which meet now and again to set the prices of things like beetroot and cooking oil.

 

[RT4038]

And hopefully many of them realise that it is not individual European countries or their people which caused Brexit. It is the EU which people in the UK voted to leave.

And I hope your Canadian acquaintance understood the constitutional position that membership of the EU means for its members. In my experience, many people from outside the EU - especially those from further afield such as Canada and the USA - have little or no idea what membership of the EU entails and are extremely surprised, if not astounded, when they find out. Many of them think it is just a friendly co-operative with committees which meet now and again to set the prices of things like beetroot and cooking oil.

I did try to point out that her niece working in Europe was probably not seen as the priority item on the Brexit agenda, and why, but I think she just wanted to have a rant! Maybe I should have taken a slant on your suggestion and spoken about the price of beetroot. Ended reasonably amicably, but miles apart. I couldn't help think that I wouldn't make such forceful comments about politics in another country to a citizen of that country unless I knew lots about it; but maybe as you point out, she thought she did!

Recently been to a poorer African country, where I heard several favourable comments about the increase in UK produce orders..... Presumably a newsworthy item there.

 

[hst43102]

Interesting reading some of the recent responses - I've been away in Europe with work.

I have to agree with a few others. The UK's glory days are behind us. It's time to politely bow out of world affairs. We are not valued or liked, that much comes out from my international network. I was very anti-Brexit, but Europe has France to protect them. Our idiotic government has helped countries like Sweden into NATO when they have kicked large numbers of Brits out post Brexit and take every opportunity to generate upset and aggravation at their border (as has been discussed on here) - what do I gain from any of this? I hate everything done in my name since 2001. No one in UK politics listens...

I very much disagree. While our country may be in a much weaker global position than it once was, why should this mean that we should "politely bow out of world affairs"? I see no reason why we cannot gain back some of our standing on the global stage, especially in a world which is much more volatile and facing a growing number of hostile powers.

 

[RT4038]

I very much disagree. While our country may be in a much weaker global position than it once was, why should this mean that we should "politely bow out of world affairs"? I see no reason why we cannot gain back some of our standing on the global stage, especially in a world which is much more volatile and facing a growing number of hostile powers.

Quite.

We are not valued or liked,

Have we ever been particularly liked, or valued, in continental Europe, except to help them fight each other????? Didn't stop us acquiring the largest Empire the world has ever seen! Perfidious Albion indeed. Not that I am suggesting we aim for that again, but hold our heads up high, adapt to the new circumstances and onwards and upwards (in spite of ourselves and whatever the Swedes dish up).

 

[DustyBin]

I would suggest, in fact, that it comes from the same place as your comment that we are led by idiots but always there when it counts: a feeling that ‘I know we are better than this’. Of course, views may differ as to the specifics of where and how we could improve…

In some cases I’m sure it does, and I understand that frustration, clearly. I think there’s a degree of self-denigration too though.

And hopefully many of them realise that it is not individual European countries or their people which caused Brexit. It is the EU which people in the UK voted to leave.

And I hope your Canadian acquaintance understood the constitutional position that membership of the EU means for its members. In my experience, many people from outside the EU - especially those from further afield such as Canada and the USA - have little or no idea what membership of the EU entails and are extremely surprised, if not astounded, when they find out. Many of them think it is just a friendly co-operative with committees which meet now and again to set the prices of things like beetroot and cooking oil.

I always make a point of emphasising this, as not everyone understands. I’m very fond of the continent of Europe, and it’s constituent countries. The EU less so…

I did try to point out that her niece working in Europe was probably not seen as the priority item on the Brexit agenda, and why, but I think she just wanted to have a rant! Maybe I should have taken a slant on your suggestion and spoken about the price of beetroot. Ended reasonably amicably, but miles apart. I couldn't help think that I wouldn't make such forceful comments about politics in another country to a citizen of that country unless I knew lots about it; but maybe as you point out, she thought she did!

Recently been to a poorer African country, where I heard several favourable comments about the increase in UK produce orders..... Presumably a newsworthy item there.

I spoke to quite a few Albanians (in Albania) who wanted to move to the UK and were upset that it’s become more difficult. They fully understood though that their hopes and dreams weren’t really the priority!

It was interesting talking to a couple of locals in Serbia last year, as they knew very little about the whole thing; it didn’t seem to be a big news story there. They were pretty Euro-sceptical (as is fairly common) so didn’t take much convincing of the merits of Brexit (as I see them of course).

 

[Silenos]

Have we ever been particularly liked, or valued, in continental Europe, except to help them fight each other?????

That was always the aim of British diplomacy - to keep the powers of continental Europe fighting one another so that none of them could combine to challenge us.

It was interesting talking to a couple of locals in Serbia last year, as they knew very little about the whole thing; it didn’t seem to be a big news story there. They were pretty Euro-sceptical (as is fairly common) so didn’t take much convincing of the merits of Brexit (as I see them of course).

Serbia has always looked more to Russia than the EU, which of course includes its great rivals the Croats and is seen as a supporter of the Kosovans.

 

[brad465]

We should not be starting or getting involved in military action for no reason other than self-defence or to support the defence of an important ally that in effect means we're defending ourselves. In relation to conflicts this century so far, this means that supporting Ukraine is justified, but everything we have done in the Middle East since the turn of the century, including blind support for the Israeli regime, should not have happened.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

We should not be starting or getting involved in military action for no reason other than self-defence or to support the defence of an important ally that in effect means we're defending ourselves. In relation to conflicts this century so far, this means that supporting Ukraine is justified, but everything we have done in the Middle East since the turn of the century, including blind support for the Israeli regime, should not have happened.

You don't think that defending human rights, or persecuted people against despotic rulers (particularly rulers who have just come to power perhaps in violent coups) is a good reason for getting involved in military action?

(I agree with you that the blind support for the Israeli regime should not have happened, but that's mainly because the Government we are supporting has to some extent turned into the oppressor)

 

[brad465]

You don't think that defending human rights, or persecuted people against despotic rulers (particularly rulers who have just come to power perhaps in violent coups) is a good reason for getting involved in military action?

(I agree with you that the blind support for the Israeli regime should not have happened, but that's mainly because the Government we are supporting has to some extent turned into the oppressor)

If there is no other alternative to stopping those despotic rulers then yes (in some cases this is covered with my point about defending key allies who are attacked), but there must be a key plan thought through that includes an exit strategy. Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan all had despotic rulers/regimes before our intervention, but the lack of thought into the campaigns and aftermath means all 3 are at best back to square one. To add insult to injury, the European migration crisis has been exacerbated by these ill-thought out interventions.

 

[DustyBin]

Serbia has always looked more to Russia than the EU, which of course includes its great rivals the Croats and is seen as a supporter of the Kosovans.

They have indeed, although I think it’s a relationship of convenience more than anything. The situation is rather complicated, and as a nation Serbia doesn’t seem to quite know what it wants. I got the impression that they’re happy to be left to their own devices, and ordinary people are more concerned with internal issues (although the war in Ukraine is affecting them apparently).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If there is no other alternative to stopping those despotic rulers then yes (in some cases this is covered with my point about defending key allies who are attacked), but there must be a key plan thought through that includes an exit strategy. Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan all had despotic rulers/regimes before our intervention, but the lack of thought into the campaigns and aftermath means all 3 are at best back to square one. To add insult to injury, the European migration crisis has been exacerbated by these ill-thought out interventions.

Yes I would broadly agree there. I don't think there was a problem in principle with our decision to intervene: In all three cases, the human rights situation justified our intervention, but the problem was those interventions were badly thought out, in particular with no good plans for what should happen after we'd intervened. On the other hand I'd argue that Syria was an obvious case where we should have intervened on humanitarian grounds, and things went horribly wrong precisely because we weren't willing to do so.

 

[oldman]

In all three cases, the human rights situation justified our intervention, but the problem was those interventions were badly thought out, in particular with no good plans for what should happen after we'd intervened.

The intervention in Afghanistan was justified by it being seen as a refuge for terrorists; in Iraq by it being seen as a threat to regional stability. Certainly the regimes we wished to change were brutal autocracies, but that was not the primary reason for overturning them. Libya and our early involvement in Syria may have been motivated by humanitarian concerns.

The problem with the 'no good plans' argument is that it implies that there could have been good plans if only we'd thought hard enough.