Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

[Honest Ross]

Have you ever seen anyone so upset about a domain name?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TFL model is the same as this model, MTR operates TFL Rail on behalf on TFL whilst KeolisAmey operates TFWrail on behalf of TFW, KeolisAmey is just the operator.

TfW Rail is not the same model as TfL Rail (LO/Crossrail) or Merseyrail, which are concessions where the operator does not take the same risks as a normal franchisee.
I think WG intended for that to happen with TfW Rail, but at the last minute awarded a risk-based contract to Keolis Amey, more like a standard franchise.
For instance, TfL has specified and procured the trains which LO/Crossrail operate, and Merseytravel is procuring the Stadlers for ME to operate.
But Keolis Amey have procured the CAF/Stadler fleet for TfW.
TfW Rail is therefore a hybrid franchise unlike any other so far.
Until the franchise agreement is published we won't know the full detail (and maybe not even then!).
Keolis Amey is officially described as TfW's "Operations and Development Partner", not a franchisee or a concession holder.

 

[PR1Berske]

The closest similarity to the confusion over the name that I can think of is the West Midlands/London Northwestern problem in the early days of their takeover period. I wonder if the issue over the use of the name Transport For Wales vs. Wales and Borders/Trafnidiaeth Cymru vs. Cymru a'r Gororau will be calmed down in a few months when things have had a chance to settle in. There's certainly less consternation over WMT on these forums nowadays!

 

[transmanche]

MTL used Mersey in some of their brand names but only the ones operating in Merseyside, which is a point you seem to be struggling to understand.

Oh I understand it perfectly well. I just think that the point you are trying to make is ridiculous.

It seems that it's more important to you to be 'right' and 'win' than to actually make a sensible point...

 

[transmanche]

I hadn't thought about sub-brands, but there's no sign of one for stations outside Wales or for trains that call at them so far.

I remind you again that it's less than a week since the TfW Rail operation started and they have up to five years to complete a full re-brand of stations.

 

[transmanche]

The closest similarity to the confusion over the name [...]

There isn't any 'confusion over the name'. Just some Daily Mail-style made-up fury from a few people who seem to have a specific agenda...

 

[Dai Corner]

I remind you again that it's less than a week since the TfW Rail operation started and they have up to five years to complete a full re-brand of stations.

Yes, I suppose they might re-rebrand the ones they've already rebranded. It would be better to get it right first time though.

 

[pemma]

There isn't any 'confusion over the name'. Just some Daily Mail-style made-up fury from a few people who seem to have a specific agenda...

If there's no confusion over the name why are so many people tweeting Transport for Wales when they should be tweeting Transport for Wales Rail?

 

[transmanche]

TfW Rail is not the same model as TfL Rail (LO/Crossrail) or Merseyrail, which are concessions where the operator does not take the same risks as a normal franchisee.

As far as the customer is concerned, it is.

Do you think customers care who carries the revenue risk?

All they see are the customer-facing brands and sub-brands and many transport authorities seem now to be following the TfL model of branding: with an overarching 'Transport for...' main brand and various sub-brands which support that.

• Transport for London
• Transport for Greater Manchester
• Transport for West Midlands
• Transport for Edinburgh

Even transport authorities overseas are getting in on the act:

• Transport for Ireland
• Transport for New South Wales
• Transport for Victoria

 

[Llanigraham]

If there's no confusion over the name why are so many people tweeting Transport for Wales when they should be tweeting Transport for Wales Rail?

And you have evidence of how many are doing this?

 

[transmanche]

If there's no confusion over the name why are so many people tweeting Transport for Wales when they should be tweeting Transport for Wales Rail?

Why do people tweet some American computing teacher called John Lewis, rather than the UK-based department store chain? Or why do people tweet Natalie Westerman when they want to contact a certain high street bank? Or why did thousands of cricket fans end up following Ashley Kerekes on Twitter?

 

[transmanche]

Yes, I suppose they might re-rebrand the ones they've already rebranded.

How many stations have been completely re-branded thus far? How many of those are in England, or likely feature a specific sub-brand in the future?

 

[Parallel]

How many stations have been completely re-branded thus far? How many of those are in England, or likely feature a specific sub-brand in the future?

Shrewsbury and Chester have had the sticker treatment. Not sure about the others.

 

[Cardiff123]

How many stations have been completely re-branded thus far? How many of those are in England, or likely feature a specific sub-brand in the future?

Pontypridd has been done in full TfW colours and branding, that's likely to become a 'Metro' branded station in future. Llandaf and Radyr were painted into new colours last year, although no stations have had those colours applied since.
Wrexham General will be re-branded with new signs soon as a trial to gauge customer reaction. Everywhere else has just had the TfW sticker treatment as a means to simply cover over and erase the Arriva logo and wording from the network. Yet that has sent this forum absolutely apoplectic.

 

[pemma]

Why do people tweet some American computing teacher called John Lewis, rather than the UK-based department store chain? Or why do people tweet Natalie Westerman when they want to contact a certain high street bank? Or why did thousands of cricket fans end up following Ashley Kerekes on Twitter?

Well John Lewis or NatWest can't tell personal users of Twitter with no connection to their businesses what handle they should have. TfW have directly caused the problem they are experiencing.

 

[Born Acorn]

Can confirm the permanent Wrexham General signs are in. No sub-brand - just the T. - Here's the tweet.

 

[transmanche]

Well John Lewis or NatWest can't tell personal users of Twitter with no connection to their businesses what handle they should have. TfW have directly caused the problem they are experiencing.

I can see this is a massive problem for you, which is clearly keeping you awake at night.

Meanwhile, the rest of us have got some perspective and don't see any issue.

 

[PR1Berske]

Can confirm the permanent Wrexham General signs are in. No sub-brand - just the T. - Here's the tweet.

That looks very smart.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Doesn't seem that the branding is the main concern with the traveling public.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45889776

5bn rail franchise of failing to improve services after more disruption.

Passengers have complained of trains being delayed and cancelled, packed services with too few carriages and trains not stopping to pick up.

Transport for Wales (TfW) took from Arriva Trains Wales at the weekend, but one commuter said: "I see nothing has changed with Transport for Wales then."

Complete absence of any mention of branding.

 

[Honest Ross]

It’s not just twitter handles that upset jcollins, he also gets upset about domain names & Welsh train stations having the cheek to use their own language!

 

[krus_aragon]

It’s not just twitter handles that upset jcollins, he also gets upset about domain names & Welsh train stations having the cheek to use their own language!

Let's not start making personal attacks, and stick to debating the issues instead.

 

[Honest Ross]

Where’s the attack? All those things are items he has said upset him about the discussed franchise.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Can confirm the permanent Wrexham General signs are in. No sub-brand - just the T. - Here's the tweet.

I'm looking forward to someone FOIing the brand guidelines, not so much for the interminable "Wales & Borders" debate, but more to find out what font that is. It looks almost exactly like Avenir but I swear there's a bit more of a flare at the bottom of the lower-case a...

 

[pemma]

I can see this is a massive problem for you, which is clearly keeping you awake at night.

Meanwhile, the rest of us have got some perspective and don't see any issue.

Or you mean unable to see a problem because it only creates an issue for others not an issue for you.

 

[pemma]

And you have evidence of how many are doing this?

Do you understand how social media works? The number of tweets will be going up and up and it's only the ones which someone manning the TfW feed redirects to TfW Rail that we see. It's pleasing to know Wales has no austerity problems so no one sees an issue with someone being paid using public funds spending their time doing that. Perhaps Westminster needs to cut the amount of money it sends to Cardiff so the money being wasted in Wales can instead be used to address austerity in England.

 

[Honest Ross]

It is a bit clunky and could do with refining, but to then start saying Wales needs funding cuts because of it is absolutely hysterical.

Go and get some fresh air.

 

[sw1ller]

I'm looking forward to someone FOIing the brand guidelines, not so much for the interminable "Wales & Borders" debate, but more to find out what font that is. It looks almost exactly like Avenir but I swear there's a bit more of a flare at the bottom of the lower-case a...

Somebody mentioned on here a few days ago, a company in Sweden (I think) that was tasked to design the whole brand of wales (not just transport) and it included designing a new font.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm looking forward to someone FOIing the brand guidelines, not so much for the interminable "Wales & Borders" debate, but more to find out what font that is. It looks almost exactly like Avenir but I swear there's a bit more of a flare at the bottom of the lower-case a...

I've asked nicely for the brand guidelines already. If I get them I'll let you know what the font is.

 

[krus_aragon]

Where’s the attack? All those things are items he has said upset him about the discussed franchise.

Having re-read the whole thread (twice, just in case) I see where they queried the use of .wales/.cymru domains for a franchise that represents significant areas outside Wales, and where they pointed out that tweets from the public are being redirected between the two TfW accounts. I'm not sure that's quite the same as being upset about the issues.

With regard to "Welsh stations having the cheek to use their own language" , I can't find a post where they've raised that, only this issue of what language comes first, on accessibility grounds. (I happen to disagree with them on that point, but won't go into that here, as I'd be drifting far from the original topic.)

Other posters have also shared similar views on these subjects, and I was worried that you were picking out one individual, and a few comments made over four or five pages of conversation. As "they" say, it's better to debate the policies, not the person.

You clearly have an emotive viewpoint on this subject (as do several), but I'd encourage you to try to back up your points with an explanation and evidence where possible. Sarcasm doesn't always read well on a forum, even with a smiley on the end.

 

[Honest Ross]

I don’t need your advice.