Should there be an enshrined right within the NRCoT to travel if ToD-issuing facilities are unavailable?

[Adam Williams]

At present, there is a right to travel and pay-on-board/at the first opportunity where ticket issuing facilities are not functioning and the customer does not hold a ticket.

To my knowledge, there is no such right in the Conditions of Travel for the customer who purchases from a Train Operating Company/Third-Party Retailer ahead of time and is then unable to collect their tickets at their origin station. They might have a long-established right to purchase tickets for their entire journey if there are no ticket issuing facilities whatsoever, but I believe there's no specific right to have staff recall and print the ToD (Ticket on Departure) booking which would mean, theoretically at least, a customer could be made to pay twice. They'll also lose out on any savings they made by booking in advance.

Customers have been threatened with needing to pay three-figure settlements in cases where they held a valid ToD reference but were unable to collect it ([1]; though in this case, the customer didn't have the correct payment card and TrainSplit bookings were same-card-collection at that point), I would not be at all surprised to see a case where a customer gets a similar letter from TIL if they were not able to collect their ToD booking due to a broken TVM.

Should there be a new right to collect tickets at the first opportunity? If we're increasingly expecting customers to buy online well in advance of travel, avail of cheaper Advance tickets and secure their seat (on those pesky mandatory-but-not-actually-mandatory reservation services), shouldn't we protecting customers from legal liability when things go wrong?

Currently I have to advise these customers to "contact the TOC via Twitter and ask for authorisation to travel and pick up your ticket on-board / at $intermediateStation", which is pretty poor. Phone doesn't work, because they need the authority to travel in writing, and usually it's pretty close to travel - I've never got a same-day response from a TOC customer services team via email, in a personal capacity.

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On a related note, are there still TOCs using mobile TISs that can't issue ToD on-board the train?

 

[skyhigh]

On a related note, are there still TOCs using mobile TISs that can't issue ToD on-board the train?

Yes. Northern is one example.

 

[transportphoto]

On a related note, are there still TOCs using mobile TISs that can't issue ToD on-board the train?

Some TOCs have the ability to do so but only carry paper-roll ticket stock… so can’t issue cross-London tickets. What’s one of the main reason for e-tickets not being available? Cross-London.

 

[Chris Butler]

Does there need to be? If you've entered into a contract for travel in advance and complied with all conditions (e.g. bought the required card etc. with you to collect the ticket) then I can't see where the TOC has any case against you.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think it would be good to enshrine this as a right, however, I think in practice this works out already.

For example, a few years back the ToD facility of the ticket machines at my local station didn't work, but they could still sell tickets. Staff had put up notices saying that travel would be permitted on the booking reference.

Does there need to be? If you've entered into a contract for travel in advance and complied with all conditions (e.g. bought the required card etc. with you to collect the ticket) then I can't see where the TOC has any case against you.

It's definitely to enshrine rights explicitly instead of relying on them implicitly existing, as it reduces the chances of conflict/disagreement

 

[Snow1964]

Does there need to be? If you've entered into a contract for travel in advance and complied with all conditions (e.g. bought the required card etc. with you to collect the ticket) then I can't see where the TOC has any case against you.

Strictly the conditions are that you select a location to collect them, which implies they will be available for collection.

The contract is frustrated (to use the legal term), if the collection point is out of action.

The real problem is that currently you can go online now, buy a ticket for few hours time, select a (non functioning) station to collect from.

It's not even about collection machines subsequently failing, it will allow you to pick one where there are no currently working machines, and they won't be functioning by time of journey. The contract is sold under false pretences because can't strictly meet the conditions of collecting tickets before travel, and couldn't at time of entering the contract. It would be similar principle to selling a ticket for a concert which is already cancelled and relocated. Can only end up with a variation, not the actual required item.

 

[Adam Williams]

I think it would be good to enshrine this as a right, however, I think in practice this works out already.

For example, a few years back the ToD facility of the ticket machines at my local station didn't work, but they could still sell tickets. Staff had put up notices saying that travel would be permitted on the booking reference.


It's definitely to enshrine rights explicitly instead of relying on them implicitly existing, as it reduces the chances of conflict/disagreement

Yeah, I do expect in a good 90% of cases, frontline staff are pragmatic about this - but there are no shortage of threads here covering problems where if it's not in the NRCoT (e.g. right to be re-routed under PRO regs, consumer contracts regulations), passengers are treated poorly. I would wager that all front-line staff do at least know what the NRCoT is and I'd expect train operating company training will cover it in some depth so even if passengers need to point to the sub-section, they'd be in a better position.

The real problem is that currently you can go online now, buy a ticket for few hours time, select a (non functioning) station to collect from.

Yes, there's an associated data problem here - retailers don't know which machines work, which machines are ""on strike"" (which I found out is common yesterday!), which machines are temporarily out of service etc. They can only go off of the data that says if a station has ToD-issuing facilities or not. There's nothing live.

 

[[.n]]

I've travelled on TOD reference a few times when the ticket machine at my start point was out of order (I just informed the guard on the train that this was the case) and its been fine, In fact on a few occasions (making the guard aware) - I've popped off the train at convenient station along the way and picked up the TOD from there!

 

[Trainbike46]

Yeah, I do expect in a good 90% of cases, frontline staff are pragmatic about this - but there are no shortage of threads here covering problems where if it's not in the NRCoT (e.g. right to be re-routed under PRO regs, consumer contracts regulations), passengers are treated poorly. I would wager that all front-line staff do at least know what the NRCoT is and I'd expect train operating company training will cover it in some depth so even if passengers need to point to the sub-section, they'd be in a better position.


Yes, there's an associated data problem here - retailers don't know which machines work, which machines are ""on strike"" (which I found out is common yesterday!), which machines are temporarily out of service etc. They can only go off of the data that says if a station has ToD-issuing facilities or not. There's nothing live.

Fully agreed it is better to explicitly make it clear in NRCOT

How can ticket machines be "on strike"?

 

[Adam Williams]

How can ticket machines be "on strike"?

SWR turn them off on strike days, meaning customers can't collect their ToD bookings for future travel.