Should there be "peak" or "off-peak" trains?

[PeterC]

Mod Note: Post #1 split from this thread.

There is no such thing as a "peak" or "off-peak" train! I
SNIP

Perhaps there should be. From a customer point of view it would make far more sense to have the train clearly classified in the timetable.

 

[[.n]]

No there shouldn't - it penalises those doing long distance journies

 

[Gareth Marston]

from our Submission to the RDG Fares Consultation

A fair and consistent national peak policy.

We must recognise that peak trains into major centres can be very busy but also cost to provide. Most of the UK Rails operational and maintenance cost base is in providing peak hour trains into/out of London despite attempts over the years to persuade the public that it all pours down the drain as regional subsidy. The price differential between Off Peak and Peak fares must be reasonable and not extortionate say plus 33% in the regions and plus 70% for London. Restrictions should be as follows:

Into London from the major Metropolitan areas* (except Newcastle & Scotland) applies to all weekday arrivals into central London between 0730 & 0944 and departures from Central London between 1615 & 1844.

Into London from non-Metropolitan areas – applies to weekday arrivals into central London between 0730 & 0944 and departures from Central London between 1615 & 1844.

· On InterCity/ Regional Express services less than 135 minutes travel time.

· On Regional/Metro services less than 90 minutes travel time.

Into major Metropolitan Areas* from elsewhere - applies to weekday arrivals into central areas between 0730 & 0929 and departures from Central Areas between 1630 & 1829.

· On all services less than 90 minutes travel time.

*Major Metropolitan areas outside London: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff. Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Nottingham/Derby, Birmingham, Bristol & South Hampshire (Portsmouth/Southampton).

· Restrictions apply to the service in question so even if your alighting short of the major conurbation they apply as your using peak capacity.

· Note that the restrictions apply into in the morning peak and out of in the evening peak for major conurbations only. There are no contra flow restrictions.

· There are no peak restrictions outside of commuting times into/out of major conurbations.

The limit is set by journey time, the 135 minutes for InterCity trains matches the current journey times from the major conurbations excluding Newcastle/Scotland to London. Places with slow services to London i.e. Shrewsbury & Hereford are not harshly penalised. 90 minutes is the beyond the break point for commuters so people having to travel long distance for non-commuting purposes are not penalised

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Mod Note: Post #1 split from this thread.


Perhaps there should be. From a customer point of view it would make far more sense to have the train clearly classified in the timetable.

What is the most important consideration though - absolute clarity or making long journeys 'doable'?

For example, journeys from the Southwest to the Northeast via London would be very difficult to do if both legs were restricted. You might only be able to make the journey on one or two itineraries a day with a Super Off-Peak ticket, and then you may as well just use an Advance instead!

I think it would be far better if all tickets made their restriction code absolutely clear (like the new-style tickets do, by writing out nre.co.uk/XX), and then if there were one unified website where passengers could look up itineraries for any particular part of their journey (e.g. London to the Northeast for the above example) and see which trains were valid to take with the restriction code their ticket has.

 

[ainsworth74]

Mod Note: Post #1 split from this thread.


Perhaps there should be. From a customer point of view it would make far more sense to have the train clearly classified in the timetable.

The problem becomes, I think, that this could work if we had an isolated commuter route where there were no inter-available fares. I.e. the only tickets that are valid are those that have an origin someone on the route and a destination. As soon as we treat the railway as a network however this falls apart rapidly for any sort of longer distance journey.

Take, for example, Woking to London. The outward portion of an Off-Peak Day Return is valid on trains timed to arrive at Waterloo from 1000. This means the first train that such a ticket can be used on is the 0929 (arriving 1008). So we could say that trains after say 0920 from Woking are "Off-Peak" trains and therefore any train before that is a "Peak" train and passengers must have an Anytime ticket to travel on them. Now looking in isolation this works reasonably well and could probably explained fairly easily. However, consider a longer journey for example Woking to York. Using the above idea of "Peak" and "Off-Peak" trains the first train we could use an Off-Peak Return on is the 0929 and by the time we get to Kings Cross the first train we can catch is probably the 1100 meaning we get to York at 1251.

Whereas, right now, with the concept of restrictions applying to tickets that same Off-Peak Return from Woking to York prevents us from leaving Kings Cross before 0759 but doesn't restrict our journey from Woking to Waterloo. This means that can get the 0800 from Kings Cross (having left Woking on the 0629) and be in York by 0952 around three hours earlier.

It seems reasonable that someone who is doing a longer journey is able to catch earlier trains so that they can actually travel at sensible times on Off-Peak and Super-Off Peak tickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

from our Submission to the RDG Fares Consultation

A fair and consistent national peak policy.

We must recognise that peak trains into major centres can be very busy but also cost to provide. Most of the UK Rails operational and maintenance cost base is in providing peak hour trains into/out of London despite attempts over the years to persuade the public that it all pours down the drain as regional subsidy. The price differential between Off Peak and Peak fares must be reasonable and not extortionate say plus 33% in the regions and plus 70% for London. Restrictions should be as follows:

Into London from the major Metropolitan areas* (except Newcastle & Scotland) applies to all weekday arrivals into central London between 0730 & 0944 and departures from Central London between 1615 & 1844.

Into London from non-Metropolitan areas – applies to weekday arrivals into central London between 0730 & 0944 and departures from Central London between 1615 & 1844.

· On InterCity/ Regional Express services less than 135 minutes travel time.

· On Regional/Metro services less than 90 minutes travel time.

Into major Metropolitan Areas* from elsewhere - applies to weekday arrivals into central areas between 0730 & 0929 and departures from Central Areas between 1630 & 1829.

· On all services less than 90 minutes travel time.

*Major Metropolitan areas outside London: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff. Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Nottingham/Derby, Birmingham, Bristol & South Hampshire (Portsmouth/Southampton).

· Restrictions apply to the service in question so even if your alighting short of the major conurbation they apply as your using peak capacity.

· Note that the restrictions apply into in the morning peak and out of in the evening peak for major conurbations only. There are no contra flow restrictions.

· There are no peak restrictions outside of commuting times into/out of major conurbations.

The limit is set by journey time, the 135 minutes for InterCity trains matches the current journey times from the major conurbations excluding Newcastle/Scotland to London. Places with slow services to London i.e. Shrewsbury & Hereford are not harshly penalised. 90 minutes is the beyond the break point for commuters so people having to travel long distance for non-commuting purposes are not penalised

Do the time limits apply to the ticketed journey or the journey actually made? In other words, if you broke your journey (or start late or stop short) what restrictions would apply? Or would break of journey be banned on all tickets? It's a sound proposal but I fear that it would lead to more overdistance fareing (à la Lancaster to London for Preston commuters) to avoid peak fares when you're just on the boundary. Also, would the journey times be based on the actual time the particular train you're on takes, or is it based on the fastest journey time, or the average time?

 

[Randomer]

I can't see how this would ever work with people making journeys with changes necessary at major Terminus stations (i.e. cross London or change at Bristol/Birmingham/Leeds).

Firstly, travellers would find themselves in situations where they could start a journey at 1500 and have its time taken more than doubled by waiting at an intermediate station for the peak time to finish. This would especially effect people changing TOC (e.g. Northern to VTWC at Manchester).

Secondly, either the train would have to be peak for its entire journey (massively extending peak time hours later in the morning and earlier in the afternoon) or would have to change en-route (which I think would leave occasional travellers far more open to confusion).

Thirdly, who would decide if a ticket was valid in Peak time or not, presumably more than one type of "Peak" ticket would be needed making confusion even worse than currently.

Finally, it would be very easy for TOCs to try and prevent passengers from connecting services using trains for which they don't receive most of the ORCAT allocation in order to nobble other TOCs. This would make the situation even worse for passengers than it is currently, we already see some TOCs not following the fairly simple idea of looking up ticket restrictions and refusing completely valid tickets now.

Frankly in an age of online accredited journey planners being common (and thus offering journeys which are then inherently valid) TOC training needs to be far more effective than it is currently in terms of ticketing especially for barrier staff at major Terminus stations. Far too often I believe passengers are being given totally incorrect advice on validity of tickets or even being told to buy new tickets when an excess would be perfectly acceptable.

Is the system sometimes complicated, yes.
Does the system need an overhaul, possibly (personally I'd say no without much better protections against TOCs changing validity or routing.)
Does the conflict in the current system often lie with incorrectly or poorly trained staff, yes. Note fault is not on the staff on the ground but the poor or misleading training they have been given.

 

[cuccir]

Into major Metropolitan Areas* from elsewhere - applies to weekday arrivals into central areas between 0730 & 0929 and departures from Central Areas between 1630 & 1829.

· On all services less than 90 minutes travel time.

*Major Metropolitan areas outside London: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff. Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Nottingham/Derby, Birmingham, Bristol & South Hampshire (Portsmouth/Southampton).

· Restrictions apply to the service in question so even if your alighting short of the major conurbation they apply as your using peak capacity.

· Note that the restrictions apply into in the morning peak and out of in the evening peak for major conurbations only. There are no contra flow restrictions.

· There are no peak restrictions outside of commuting times into/out of major conurbations.

The limit is set by journey time, the 135 minutes for InterCity trains matches the current journey times from the major conurbations excluding Newcastle/Scotland to London. Places with slow services to London i.e. Shrewsbury & Hereford are not harshly penalised. 90 minutes is the beyond the break point for commuters so people having to travel long distance for non-commuting purposes are not penalised

Am I right in thinking that (for example) this would apply peak restrictions to travellers doing the following trips:
* 18:50 from Hexham to Haltwhistle (an 89 minute service leaving Newcastle at 18:10)
* 18:55 from Creswell to Whitewell (a 73 minute service leaving Nottingham at 17:55)
* 18:09 from Ben Rhydding to Ilkley (a 28 minute service leaving Leeds at 17:47)

I may have misunderstood so apologies if so, but I think that's right - the 90 minutes applies to the service, not the journey made?

I'm being a bit arsey in highlighting those journeys as they're quite extreme examples - broadly speaking, if we had to have 'peak train/off-peak train' a system along the lines of what you describe would probably be the most workable. But it does tell us something that would be lost in any blanket peak/off-peak system I think - even a well designed system would result in some services having peak restrictions at times where demand is actually relatively low, and this would probably result in lost journeys and increased fares. Maybe that's worth it for reduced complication but I'm yet to be convinced.

 

[PeterC]

My original post should be read in connection with the post that I was responding to in a different thread.
In the "heretical opinions" thread I did propose a RAG (red - amber - green) classification for trains and tickets which would give more flexibility.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's a sound proposal but I fear that it would lead to more overdistance fareing (à la Lancaster to London for Preston commuters) to avoid peak fares when you're just on the boundary.

Yes lots of cliff edges so to speak however this is softened by the more lenient definition of peak time compared to says VTWC's. No one leaving Preston after 0730 is paying peak with what I suggested and evening peak is 149 minutes long not 240..... the cliff edge is a lot less of an issue. I'm also advocating single leg pricing so off peak out and peak return or vice versa takes the edge off again......

Do the time limits apply to the ticketed journey or the journey actually made? In other words, if you broke your journey (or start late or stop short) what restrictions would apply? Or would break of journey be banned on all tickets?

Take a return journey from Derby to Plymouth this starts in or crosses 3 major city zones, however one of the start/destination stations (Plymouth) is more than 90 minutes from its nearest restricted metropolitan city Bristol it is therefore exempt from any peak restrictions. Therefore remote/peripheral stations/regions are exempt from peak restrictions full stop.

Derby to Exeter is different as Exeter is in the 90 minute zone from Bristol in these cases the restriction should apply to end destination arrival time (not intermediate ones) so only trains departing between 1615 & 1844 from Bristol Temple Meads will carry peak restrictions.
Exeter to Derby will be restricted to arrivals into Derby between 0730 & 0944. Single leg pricing will again help smooth over any edges.
Yes you can break your journey but the restriction is based on your end destination arrival time. So someone could in theory alight at BRI at 1700 and resume their journey at 1830 to Exeter on an Off Peak ticket.

Also, would the journey times be based on the actual time the particular train you're on takes, or is it based on the fastest journey time, or the average time?

Most journeys are fairly similar in journey length these days give a take a few minutes here and there its not hard to "Set" where the peak boundary stations will be. If you have a different type of service i.e metro on Intercity he time boundaries are different.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Am I right in thinking that (for example) this would apply peak restrictions to travellers doing the following trips:
* 18:50 from Hexham to Haltwhistle (an 89 minute service leaving Newcastle at 18:10)
* 18:55 from Creswell to Whitewell (a 73 minute service leaving Nottingham at 17:55)
* 18:09 from Ben Rhydding to Ilkley (a 28 minute service leaving Leeds at 17:47)

I may have misunderstood so apologies if so, but I think that's right - the 90 minutes applies to the service, not the journey made?

I'm being a bit arsey in highlighting those journeys as they're quite extreme examples - broadly speaking, if we had to have 'peak train/off-peak train' a system along the lines of what you describe would probably be the most workable. But it does tell us something that would be lost in any blanket peak/off-peak system I think - even a well designed system would result in some services having peak restrictions at times where demand is actually relatively low, and this would probably result in lost journeys and increased fares. Maybe that's worth it for reduced complication but I'm yet to be convinced.

evening peak services unload as they go further out from the metropolitan core so I don't see why these sort of journeys should be penalized as the numbers doing them will be fairly minor and they wont increase overcrowding.

 

[cuccir]

evening peak services unload as they go further out from the metropolitan core so I don't see why these sort of journeys should be penalized as the numbers doing them will be fairly minor and they wont increase overcrowding.

But wouldn't they require peak tickets under the proposal you offered - as they're on under 90 minute services which depart the core between 16:30 and 18:29?

 

[MikeWh]

@Gareth Marston How would your system work with Thameslink? Would a 1530 departure from Rainham (Kent) be classed as peak for journeys to London Bridge just because the train leaves Thameslink core stations in the peak for it's journey to Luton?

 

[Gareth Marston]

@Gareth Marston How would your system work with Thameslink? Would a 1530 departure from Rainham (Kent) be classed as peak for journeys to London Bridge just because the train leaves Thameslink core stations in the peak for it's journey to Luton?

A cross city journey like that should be treated as off peak in and peak out. As everything around a centre point can be in a zone or band it should be a case of applying two legs, an off peak in and a seperate peak out. Easy with a smart ticketing system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A cross city journey like that should be treated as off peak in and peak out. As everything around a centre point can be in a zone or band it should be a case of applying two legs, an off peak in and a seperate peak out. Easy with a smart ticketing system.

That's essentially how the existing Network Rule works, sort of.