Should TOCs using compulsory ticketing areas and penalty fares on station supply sufficient retailing facilities?

[Metal_gee_man]

As the title says...
I use a SE station Paddock Wood with 1.2m passengers a year, the London bound platform 2tph has a part time manned ticket office, no barriers and 1 solitary self service machine away from the platforms.
Platform 2 & 3 have a 4tph to the coast, Tonbridge and Strood with an open gate which is bike locked open 24/7, it has car parks and is heavily used by the nearby industrial est workers, its very much arguably the busier side of the station, it has no ticketing facilities and the only way to buy a ticket is to allow an extra 5 mins minimum to cross the footbridge which has been built to extended OHLE height standards if it was to ever be installed, it actually deters people from buying a ticket and many either take a chance upto Maidstone or buy on the train.

Well that's all well and good but it seems SE REOs have been targeting that side of the station, (I've noticed this as my job often revolves around me catching a train from there on Average 3 or 4 times a day) the guard stops selling tickets and they start revenue collecting with fines, prosecutions and penalty charge notices.

This could all be fixed by a card only low risk self service machine on P2 & P3 I'm sure they'd make more revenue, but equally it'd stop penalising people for living or working on a particular side of a station.

I've resorted to using the SE Key ITSO card and the SE app to buy my tickets and load them instantly to avoid the extra 5 or so minutes walk over to the retailing facilities and also to stop the railway enforcement nazis asking me if I have got a ticket when entering onto the station. And suggesting that if I don’t go and buy one I won't be able to buy one on the train as that isn't showing enough willingness to pay and I'd be subject to action.

For me the question is are there other locations like this, is there a precedent where TOCs have been forced to improve retailing options through permit to travel machines etc...

 

[plugwash]

Very common in northern land for stations to be declared as penalty fares stations while providing appaling ticketing facilitlies. Often only a single machine on a platform is provided for the whole station requiring passengers for the other direction to use the stairs 3 times to get their ticket and board their train. No signs are put up pointing to the location of the ticket machines (there are signs for the ticket office if there is one but those are not staffed full time). I've even heard of one station where crossing a level crossing was needed to get to the ticket machines (maybe the people doing crossing risk assesments should be alerted to the increased risk due to northern's stupidity..................).

Sadly noone seems willing or able to do anything about it.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Very common in northern land for stations to be declared as penalty fares stations while providing appaling ticketing facilitlies. Often only a single machine on a platform is provided for the whole station requiring passengers for the other direction to use the stairs 3 times to get their ticket and board their train. No signs are put up pointing to the location of the ticket machines (there are signs for the ticket office if there is one but those are not staffed full time). I've even heard of one station where crossing a level crossing was needed to get to the ticket machines (maybe the people doing crossing risk assesments should be alerted to the increased risk due to northern's stupidity..................).

Sadly noone seems willing or able to do anything about it.

Does the 'only one ticket machine' argument that I have bolded actually work? It seems to me that before ticket machines smaller stations would have had one ticket window, which inevitably would have been on one side of the station, leaving passengers on the other side having to leave time to cross the line, queue, etc.

There can be lots of things wrong with ticket machines (wrong location, broken...) but I don't see that replacing one only opportunity to buy a ticket with a different one only opportunity is of itself making things worse.

 

[miami]

I'd agree a ticket machine on the other side of a level crossing should not count. There should also be a maximum wait enshrined in the legislation, if you have to wait longer than 5 minutes it should be deemed the ticket machine was unavailable and thus you can buy on board.

Moreover, if any member of staff (or contractors) issuing an incorrectly issued penalty or rejecting a ticket, the TOC employing them should be forced to pay a penalty fare to the passenger, say ten times the value of the "fine" or "replacement" ticket they issued. Then there's a financial incentive to ensure they train their staff correctly.

 

[swt_passenger]

Permit to travel machines are more likely to be removed than fitted.

i don’t see why Compulsory Ticket Areas are mentioned in the thread title, do SE actually have any?

 

[Haywain]

requiring passengers for the other direction to use the stairs 3 times to get their ticket and board their train

Why 3 times? Surely it would only be twice.

i don’t see why Compulsory Ticket Areas are mentioned in the thread title, do SE actually have any?

I think the OP just wanted to have a moan, due to living on the 'wrong' side of Paddock Wood station.

 

[Wolfie]

I'd agree a ticket machine on the other side of a level crossing should not count. There should also be a maximum wait enshrined in the legislation, if you have to wait longer than 5 minutes it should be deemed the ticket machine was unavailable and thus you can buy on board.

Moreover, if any member of staff (or contractors) issuing an incorrectly issued penalty or rejecting a ticket, the TOC employing them should be forced to pay a penalty fare to the passenger, say ten times the value of the "fine" or "replacement" ticket they issued. Then there's a financial incentive to ensure they train their staff correctly.

I think that if anyone with a disability, particularly a hidden one, is penalised in this way a TOC could come a cropper very fast indeed.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd agree a ticket machine on the other side of a level crossing should not count. There should also be a maximum wait enshrined in the legislation, if you have to wait longer than 5 minutes it should be deemed the ticket machine was unavailable and thus you can buy on board.

Moreover, if any member of staff (or contractors) issuing an incorrectly issued penalty or rejecting a ticket, the TOC employing them should be forced to pay a penalty fare to the passenger, say ten times the value of the "fine" or "replacement" ticket they issued. Then there's a financial incentive to ensure they train their staff correctly.

Do you think if you have to wait more than five minutes at Tesco to pay for something, you’re entitled to walk out with your trolley without paying?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you think if you have to wait more than five minutes at Tesco to pay for something, you’re entitled to walk out with your trolley without paying?

The problem with this situation is that having a ticket machine marooned on the wrong side of a level crossing is a safety issue, as it will encourage people to walk across anyway so as not to miss their train. Yes, I know they shouldn't, but they will.

My answer is yes, there should be either a TVM or a clear sign showing where the TVM is that you can't avoid passing via any entrance to any given platform, or one on every platform, and certainly one on both sides of any station where a lift-fitted or ramped footbridge or subway is not provided and a level crossing of whatever type is the only means of crossing. People being in a hurry the wrong side of a LC is a safety issue and must be avoided.

 

[Wolfie]

Do you think if you have to wait more than five minutes at Tesco to pay for something, you’re entitled to walk out with your trolley without paying?

Not an appropriate analogy given that the post you were responding to said that you should be entitled to pay on board not travel for free. I'm not supporting that comment, merely challenging your comparison.

 

[Watershed]

Do you think if you have to wait more than five minutes at Tesco to pay for something, you’re entitled to walk out with your trolley without paying?

Apples and oranges. Your shopping isn't going to put itself back on the shelf after 5/10 mins if there's a long queue. Plus supermarkets actually give a toss about customer service, because they're businesses and want to make a profit. So usually if there's a long queue they'll get "all hands on the pump".

The railway needs to make it easier to travel, not find excuses to penalise people because it's easier than providing adequate ticket facilities.

 

[Haywain]

Apples and oranges. Your shopping isn't going to put itself back on the shelf after 5/10 mins if there's a long queue. Plus supermarkets actually give a toss about customer service, because they're businesses and want to make a profit.

Ah, the old supermarket analogy; as ever, it doesn't work because a supermarket will have more staff available to open checkouts. The average wayside railway station, by contrast, is unlikely to have even two members of staff on duty most of the time to allow another window to be opened.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The problem with this situation is that having a ticket machine marooned on the wrong side of a level crossing is a safety issue, as it will encourage people to walk across anyway so as not to miss their train. Yes, I know they shouldn't, but they will.

My answer is yes, there should be either a TVM or a clear sign showing where the TVM is that you can't avoid passing via any entrance to any given platform, or one on every platform, and certainly one on both sides of any station where a lift-fitted or ramped footbridge or subway is not provided and a level crossing of whatever type is the only means of crossing. People being in a hurry the wrong side of a LC is a safety issue and must be avoided.

Again, how is this different from having a ticket office on only one side of a station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, how is this different from having a ticket office on only one side of a station?

It isn't, and so if you have a station which has a manned ticket office and is split by a level crossing, a TVM needs to be provided on the other side to prevent a problem.

The best option is that level crossings are not the only way to cross from one platform to another, i.e. an accessible footbridge or subway is provided, or as a minimum a steps-only footbridge or subway and a clearly stated rule that anyone unable to use it has permission to board without a ticket if necessary.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem with this situation is that having a ticket machine marooned on the wrong side of a level crossing is a safety issue, as it will encourage people to walk across anyway so as not to miss their train. Yes, I know they shouldn't, but they will.

My answer is yes, there should be either a TVM or a clear sign showing where the TVM is that you can't avoid passing via any entrance to any given platform, or one on every platform, and certainly one on both sides of any station where a lift-fitted or ramped footbridge or subway is not provided and a level crossing of whatever type is the only means of crossing. People being in a hurry the wrong side of a LC is a safety issue and must be avoided.

No problem with that view, and I agree. If there’s a level crossing then either have two TVMs or a footbridge/subway for pedestrians.

But I’m not buying the “oh if you have to wait for more than five minutes you buy on board” because that usually results in revenue walking out of the door.

Apples and oranges. Your shopping isn't going to put itself back on the shelf after 5/10 mins if there's a long queue. Plus supermarkets actually give a toss about customer service, because they're businesses and want to make a profit. So usually if there's a long queue they'll get "all hands on the pump".

The railway needs to make it easier to travel, not find excuses to penalise people because it's easier than providing adequate ticket facilities.

There are some places where the railway definitely needs to improve ticket provision, but going over a footbridge twice isn’t really that bad, is it?

 

[miami]

But I’m not buying the “oh if you have to wait for more than five minutes you buy on board” because that usually results in revenue walking out of the door.

And people wonder why 98% of trips are not by rail

 

[Wolfie]

No problem with that view, and I agree. If there’s a level crossing then either have two TVMs or a footbridge/subway for pedestrians.

But I’m not buying the “oh if you have to wait for more than five minutes you buy on board” because that usually results in revenue walking out of the door.


There are some places where the railway definitely needs to improve ticket provision, but going over a footbridge twice isn’t really that bad, is it?

Re your last para l'm sure that it is a convenient excuse used by some.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the 5 minute thing is solved by the availability of mobile phone ticketing apps. If you're normally in a hurry, download one and buy online, and assuming the TOC isn't one of the increasingly few "backward" ones that won't do e-tickets you can reduce the wait to a guaranteed 0 minutes.

 

[nr758123]

Marsden station has some issues with regard to the location of the sole TVM.

Marsden station is a bit strange in more than one way.
1. There are people who think Marsden is a strange place, and therefore anyone and anything in the village is inherently strange.
2. The station operator is Northern, and it comes under their penalty fares scheme. However, Northern no longer run any services through the station. The only services that call are operated by TPE.
3. The TVM is on platform 3. Obviously it makes sense to put the TVM on the only platform with step-free access, or rather it would if any trains still used that platform. So the TVM is in an otherwise unused part of the station, from which the operational platforms can only be reached by exiting the station and walking 100 yards along the road to one of the other entrances.

As far as I know, there is no signage on either operational platform to say where the TVM is, so an occasional user of the station would not know it exists let alone where to find it.

The solution is to take a sensible pragmatic option, sell tickets on the train if requested, and that appears to be what TPE are doing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a minimum there should be clear, prominent and permanent signs on entering every platform explaining where the TVM is.

 

[wessextrains]

Yes the facilities that are provided at many penalty fare stations is a joke. There are hundreds of smaller penalty fare stations around the country where the one and only ticket machine is card only and there is no ticket office. So people who need to pay cash have no way to buy a ticket before boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes the facilities that are provided at many penalty fare stations is a joke. There are hundreds of smaller penalty fare stations around the country where the one and only ticket machine is card only and there is no ticket office. So people who need to pay cash have no way to buy a ticket before boarding.

If facilities were not present to purchase a ticket by the accepted payment method you wish to use, then you may board the train and cannot be charged a PF. Northern have the "promise to pay" kludge, but they don't have to, LNR don't and will take cash at the destination (or on board, on the rare occasion of a guard bothering to do tickets).

 

[AlterEgo]

And people wonder why 98% of trips are not by rail

Do they? I’m not sure that’s a surprising statistic in a country the size and geography of Britain at all, especially as the skew is towards long distance journeys. The main barriers to modal shift aren’t “the ticket machine is across a footbridge”.

Only Germany has a higher rail ridership.

 

[Haywain]

And people wonder why 98% of trips are not by rail

Do they?

I do, but that’s nothing to with rail travel. More that do many could be made by walking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they? I’m not sure that’s a surprising statistic in a country the size and geography of Britain at all, especially as the skew is towards long distance journeys. The main barriers to modal shift aren’t “the ticket machine is across a footbridge”.

Only Germany has a higher rail ridership.

I think what can be a bar is people telling their friends "I got charged a Penalty Fare because I didn't use the ticket machine, but you can't even see it on the platform I was using, that's really unfair". Not for long distance travel as that's mostly prebooked and not bought from TVMs, but there is definitely a considerable level of disquiet with Northern about this sort of thing. My sister for instance has an issue with her autistic son who doesn't yet have a bank card - he was fine paying the guard, but has difficulty with the whole "promise to pay" rubbish* - even with my instructions neither of them can work out how to get the TVM to issue one, and that's just not good enough.

* A classic Permit to Travel machine - put your fare in and press the button - he'd be fine with.

 

[wessextrains]

If facilities were not present to purchase a ticket by the accepted payment method you wish to use, then you may board the train and cannot be charged a PF. Northern have the "promise to pay" kludge, but they don't have to, LNR don't and will take cash at the destination (or on board, on the rare occasion of a guard bothering to do tickets).

That is true but i have heard stories of some RPIs who still like to give passengers trouble for this sort of thing.

Are Guards still selling tickets onboard? I have not seen any ticket checks on any train that i have been on since late 2019 so wondering if many TOCs Guards are still not selling tickets onboard because of the virus?

The "Promise To Pay" thing is a joke. I have seen kids at some stations mess around the machines and print out large amounts of these tickets. They should have just installed Permit To Travel machines where you have to insert at least 5p to get a ticket. Is it just Northern Rail who do these? Or have others TOCs started doing these too as i thought i heard something about TFW starting doing them too?

 

[Bill57p9]

Not quite the same thing and fortunately not in a Penalty Fares area, but in a similar vein...
I use the car park at Ayr station by platform 4, because to use the other side car park means going around the one way system, which is even more restricted because of the ongoing Station Hotel issue.
The car park is Pay & Display however you get your parking refunded when you buy a ticket at the ticket office on the other side of the station. There is a TVM on platform 4, but you can't get a refund on your parking. So... if the barriers are open, it is usually OK. If you try to talk your way through the barriers you usually get an earful for not using the TVM, even though the only reason to NOT use the TVM is to get the parking refund.
A couple of weeks ago I had made it to the booking office just over 10 minutes before my train but both terminals then crashed. They gave me my parking back in cash and told me on the train, which worked fine. Just glad it wasn't a penalty fares area.

The railway really should make it easy to spend your money with them.

 

[RH Liner]

Very common in northern land for stations to be declared as penalty fares stations while providing appaling ticketing facilitlies. Often only a single machine on a platform is provided for the whole station requiring passengers for the other direction to use the stairs 3 times to get their ticket and board their train. No signs are put up pointing to the location of the ticket machines (there are signs for the ticket office if there is one but those are not staffed full time). I've even heard of one station where crossing a level crossing was needed to get to the ticket machines (maybe the people doing crossing risk assesments should be alerted to the increased risk due to northern's stupidity..................).

Sadly noone seems willing or able to do anything about it.

You could be referring to Newark Castle.

 

[RPI]

With the advent of digital ticketing this is a lot less of an issue, yes its far from perfect and I'll admit that my knowledge of whether SE allow E Tickets on all flows is non existent, but certainly on the trains I work in my area digital tickets are now by far the majority, the OP even said themselves that they've taken to using smart ticketing so surely that's provided a solution to the very niche problem

 

[Metal_gee_man]

With the advent of digital ticketing this is a lot less of an issue, yes its far from perfect and I'll admit that my knowledge of whether SE allow E Tickets on all flows is non existent, but certainly on the trains I work in my area digital tickets are now by far the majority, the OP even said themselves that they've taken to using smart ticketing so surely that's provided a solution to the very niche problem

I wouldn't call it a niche situation, I think its a general call to all TOCs if you're gonna make your platforms available from all angles, sides and gates but not supply a ticketing option an REO shouldn't be able to fine someone and an opportunity to purchase from a guard must be allowed, I feel it should be once you walk past your opportunity to purchase a ticket (an office or TVM) and you don't you are commiting an offence (similar to walking out a shop with goods without paying)
Sadly the railway are very quick at assuming people don't want to pay, when in some cases it's not being given the opportunity to pay.

In regards to the E-Ticketing SE don't have any readers to allow this so as far as I know no flows or routes.