Should we replace heavy rail lines with Metrolink?

[Ianno87]

Greater Manchester is tiny compared with Greater London, so the London Overground orbital model does not read across. It is unlikely that any orbital service could capture enough passenger flow to sustain a viable tram service. That is why TfGM is proposing Bus Rapid Transit for future orbital links.

Alternative transport (e.g. driving or buses) also tend to be more attractive in Greater Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other point about London Overground is it has full fare integration with the radial routes, so you can do the whole journey on one Oyster or contactless card. That isn't yet the case for Metrolink + Northern.

In the meantime it should be possible to buy through "paper" fares between Metrolink and National Rail. It makes no sense that you can buy a Bolton to Birmingham return but not a Bury to Crewe one for example.

This isn't really disastrous as things are, because there is rarely more than one way to do a given journey involving Metrolink and NR, so separate tickets don't really cause issues in the same way as separating Merseyrail out might (because most of it runs north-south, and so east-west journeys often work both ways).

That said, I do think Manchester needs an entirely mode-agnostic fares system, but then you probably knew that anyway

 

[telstarbox]

True, but the hassle factor will mean that some people give up on public transport and do the journey by car.

 

[Ianno87]

True, but the hassle factor will mean that some people give up on public transport and do the journey by car.

I really don't think that many people find it a "hassle" enough that it influences their entire journey choice, given that Metrolink is simply a bolt on to the start or end of a journey in most cases.

 

[peters]

Altrincham - this one's more difficult because although it improved frequencies to / from Altrincham in a way heavy rail probably couldn't, it did have a knock of reduced capacity and longer journey times for the Mid Cheshire line.

Actually a very, very, very, long time ago Altrincham had 12 Manchester train departures within a one hour period in the morning peak and there was an extra train on top of that starting at Sale. That was peak time only though with the off-peak frequency being much lower and it included 3 diesel trains from Chester that only stopped at Sale. On the plus side though a lot more seats than you'd get on Metrolink and faster Altrincham to Manchester journeys, even if the frequency was lower at the smaller stations and you didn't have a choice of stops across the city to alight at. Presumably it was also easier to divert North Wales to Manchester services if the Earlestown line was closed for engineering works, as there wouldn't be pathing issues through Stockport like they are now. I think that's really the issue with conversions is there's a shortage of paths around Manchester so closing lines to trains reduces the number of available options for trains to be diverted or for freight trains to be routed along. I get the impression there's a lot more freight now than when the Altrincham line was converted, I don't know if that is the case or if it's just because I'm seeing more and more freight trains every year.

The other point about London Overground is it has full fare integration with the radial routes, so you can do the whole journey on one Oyster or contactless card. That isn't yet the case for Metrolink + Northern.

Within Greater London being much bigger than Greater Manchester, the usefulness of such a scheme wouldn't be as effective unless you start including parts of Cheshire, Derbyshire and Lancashire in the scheme or effectively the TfGM Wayfarer area which stretches out to places like Buxton and Northwich, rather than stopping at the Greater Manchester boundary.

 

[RHolmes]

The other point about London Overground is it has full fare integration with the radial routes, so you can do the whole journey on one Oyster or contactless card. That isn't yet the case for Metrolink + Northern.

In the meantime it should be possible to buy through "paper" fares between Metrolink and National Rail. It makes no sense that you can buy a Bolton to Birmingham return but not a Bury to Crewe one for example.

Interestingly though fares for such a journey do exist and are available to purchase, but not online or on any national rail or Metrolink ticket machine. So you could buy a ticket from a railway station booking office if you’re boarding the train portion first, but not if you board the tram first

Not too long ago I sold a return “Marsden (yorks) to GM Metrolink Zone 1-3” day return using my Zebra machine

 

[Purple Orange]

Should heavy rail lines around Manchester be converted to Metrolink? Yes, as many as possible!

It’s a hugely popular and successful network: simple and convenient. I do get the impression that some people on here are a bit freaked out by the concept of trams and think 10 trams per hour is inferior to 2 trains per hour, but it is proving to be very successful at getting people to ditch the car.

The long term future of metrolink on the former heavy rail lines is mostly going to be about light-rail metro trains with a tunnel under the city, and trams will share some sections of line with the light-rail metro trains.

It all depends on the nature of a city centre tunnel(s), but the potential lines will be:

• Light-rail Metro Trains (using underground metro)
  • Altrincham
  • East Didsbury
  • Glossop & Hadfield
  • Rose Hill
  • Warrington
  • Atherton
  • Bury
• Tram-trains (using city centre tram-lines)
  • Wythenshawe
  • Eccles
  • Media City
  • Trafford Centre
  • Oldham & Rochdale
  • Middleton
  • Ashton

 

[Jozhua]

The other point about London Overground is it has full fare integration with the radial routes, so you can do the whole journey on one Oyster or contactless card. That isn't yet the case for Metrolink + Northern.

In the meantime it should be possible to buy through "paper" fares between Metrolink and National Rail. It makes no sense that you can buy a Bolton to Birmingham return but not a Bury to Crewe one for example.

1000% agreed. And between buses!

This can be done immediately without waiting for new infrastructure.

In fact, having through ticketing with Metrolink will allow more people to utilise it to get between Victoria /Piccadilly, reducing the need to try and connect those stations with more heavy rail.

This isn't really disastrous as things are, because there is rarely more than one way to do a given journey involving Metrolink and NR, so separate tickets don't really cause issues in the same way as separating Merseyrail out might (because most of it runs north-south, and so east-west journeys often work both ways).

That said, I do think Manchester needs an entirely mode-agnostic fares system, but then you probably knew that anyway

Yep, people are punished for changing routes/modes/operators. Changing is already inconvenient, so charging people extra (often twice) to do so is a major barrier. Often discourages from choosing the most efficient route, increasing travel times.

Should heavy rail lines around Manchester be converted to Metrolink? Yes, as many as possible!

It’s a hugely popular and successful network: simple and convenient. I do get the impression that some people on here are a bit freaked out by the concept of trams and think 10 trams per hour is inferior to 2 trains per hour, but it is proving to be very successful at getting people to ditch the car.

The long term future of metrolink on the former heavy rail lines is mostly going to be about light-rail metro trains with a tunnel under the city, and trams will share some sections of line with the light-rail metro trains.

It all depends on the nature of a city centre tunnel(s), but the potential lines will be:

• Light-rail Metro Trains (using underground metro)
  • Altrincham
  • East Didsbury
  • Glossop & Hadfield
  • Rose Hill
  • Warrington
  • Atherton
  • Bury
• Tram-trains (using city centre tram-lines)
  • Wythenshawe
  • Eccles
  • Media City
  • Trafford Centre
  • Oldham & Rochdale
  • Middleton
  • Ashton

I'm happy to see it happen as long as the mode is suitable - light metro trains would be suitable. If they could reach speeds of around 62mph I think that would be very suitable!

Light metro trains can probably carry more people if they come as 4+ car sets.

I just don't think M5000's absolutely everywhere is the best idea. Getting out to Rochdale is probably as far as it can be pushed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep, people are punished for changing routes/modes/operators. Changing is already inconvenient, so charging people extra (often twice) to do so is a major barrier. Often discourages from choosing the most efficient route, increasing travel times.

Single-mode day and season tickets are the main issue here; zonal ones are fairer. Point to point rail and Metrolink tickets are crudely distance-based so that isn't too bad.

 

[Ianno87]

Single-mode day and season tickets are the main issue here; zonal ones are fairer. Point to point rail and Metrolink tickets are crudely distance-based so that isn't too bad.

The comparison Tube integrated fares would be reasonable here.

-Combined fares where a tube journey is involved as part of a rail journey (i.e a cross London transfer)
-Zonal fares for intra-London journeys that involve changing modes
-Standalone fares where the Tube is the start or end of a longer distance journey (e.g. somebody in Morden getting a Pendolino to Manchester using Oyster/Contactless for the tube part of the journey, then a seperate rail ticket)

 

[peters]

Light metro trains can probably carry more people if they come as 4+ car sets.

Based on Metrolink's claim the seating capacity of a tram is just over 50 - they don't all have the same number of seats, despite all being the same type of tram! They say they can carry 150 standing but in reality people complain of overcrowding when there's less than 100 standing and I'm aware of people being overcarried when trams are carrying something in the region of 150 standing and there's matches on at Old Trafford. For example, someone who tries to alight an Altrincham to Manchester tram at Stretford finds it almost or actually impossible to get off. The other point with standing is someone might be happy to stand to travel from Market Street to Piccadilly, they probably won't be happy to stand from Bury to Piccadilly.

RUG passenger counts I've seen show that Northern's 2 carriage trains can carry around 280-290 before they start to leave people behind, it might be a bit lower than that now because I think those figures were obtained on trains that didn't have the wheelchair accessible toilet fitted.

Point to point rail and Metrolink tickets are crudely distance-based so that isn't too bad.

Metrolink is a bit like a bus in terms of there's a minimum single fare so if you're only going to the next stop the tram can cost more than a taxi but if you're travelling from say Altrincham to Rochdale and back then the day ticket price is a small fraction of what a return taxi journey would be.

 

[Whisky Papa]

The half-hearted integration with National Rail fares can be very frustrating, although if using any sort of railcard, it usually pays to split them anyway. Yes, through fares are available, but only calculated via central Manchester. The other possible interchange points have nothing, eg there is no Bradford Interchange - Oldham fare via Rochdale. Selling somebody a ticket from Bradford to Rochdale and telling them to battle with an unfamiliar ticket machine when they get there is not great customer service, and some customers opted to pay the higher than necessary fare via Manchester simply to get the through ticket.

Regarding integration locally, it is possible to buy System1 combined all-zones Metrolink and all-bus seasons, although these are quite a premium if you would otherwise not need an all-zones Metrolink season. There is however no season that also includes all-rail (in the TfGM area) too, which probably doesn't affect too many people in reality, but seems to signify a lack of joined-up thinking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding integration locally, it is possible to buy System1 combined all-zones Metrolink and all-bus seasons, although these are quite a premium if you would otherwise not need an all-zones Metrolink season. There is however no season that also includes all-rail (in the TfGM area) too, which probably doesn't affect too many people in reality, but seems to signify a lack of joined-up thinking.

There wasn't a bus and tram one for years, only day tickets.

It's absolutely nuts that there isn't one for all three (it's not like TfGM haven't had 30 years to sort that out). That said, the CountyCard (which is called that again) does include central zone tram. I suppose you can sort-of cobble one together by buying two of the others, but in that case you're overcharged somewhat.

 

[Whisky Papa]

There wasn't a bus and tram one for years, only day tickets.

It's absolutely nuts that there isn't one for all three (it's not like TfGM haven't had 30 years to sort that out). That said, the CountyCard (which is called that again) does include central zone tram. I suppose you can sort-of cobble one together by buying two of the others, but in that case you're overcharged somewhat.

I was slightly surprised to see the bus and tram seasons when I checked the System1 page today, I confess. My son used to walk from Chorlton to Stretford to commute to Altrincham some years ago, but that combined ticket would have been massively expensive compared to the point-to-point Metrolink season he had. He only caught a bus in the direst of bad weather, but he was young and fit - not everybody is so lucky of course.

I should perhaps add that it has long been possible to buy a combined point-to-point season that combines both modes (eg Reddish North - Anchorage Metrolink), often at quite low additional cost, so many multi-mode journeys are covered that way. What you couldn't do was buy a Reddish North - Altrincham season without specifying which mode you would be using, and then it not being valid on the other (except in Ticket Acceptance situations during disruption).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Idly musing, I wonder if this website had been going many years prior to inception in 2005 and the internet had also been operational in those long-off days ago, what a thread such as this would have postings of discussion concerning the possibility of those areas in the north-east area core being given over from British Rail to a Tyne and Wear operation.

 

[Purple Orange]

1000% agreed. And between buses!

This can be done immediately without waiting for new infrastructure.

In fact, having through ticketing with Metrolink will allow more people to utilise it to get between Victoria /Piccadilly, reducing the need to try and connect those stations with more heavy rail.

Yep, people are punished for changing routes/modes/operators. Changing is already inconvenient, so charging people extra (often twice) to do so is a major barrier. Often discourages from choosing the most efficient route, increasing travel times.

I'm happy to see it happen as long as the mode is suitable - light metro trains would be suitable. If they could reach speeds of around 62mph I think that would be very suitable!

Light metro trains can probably carry more people if they come as 4+ car sets.

I just don't think M5000's absolutely everywhere is the best idea. Getting out to Rochdale is probably as far as it can be pushed!

We have to remember that if the Atherton, Glossop, Rose Hill and Warrington lines were converted for metrolink usage, it wouldn’t be M5000 trams that use the line. It would be wholly reasonable to expect a tram-train that has the look and feel of any light rail metro train (i.e. 60-70m in length). Also of no tunnel is dug, I doubt there will be a line to Warrington.

The timescale were talking about means that the current fleet would be long gone anyway. Metrolink likes a uniform fleet, so if there is no tunnel I would bet that all units will be tram-trains the equivalent of a double length M5000. If a tunnel is built, I think it will be a mix of light-rail Metro trains at 70m in length, with fleet of tram-trains of similar length too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We have to remember that if the Atherton, Glossop, Rose Hill and Warrington lines were converted for Metrolink usage, it wouldn’t be M5000 trams that use the line. It would be wholly reasonable to expect a tram-train that has the look and feel of any light rail metro train (i.e. 60-70m in length). Also if no tunnel is dug, I doubt there will be a line to Warrington.

May I enquire if TfGM have held discussions with the relevant authority that controls Warrington in which the official views of that area concerning a possible replacement of the existing heavy rail service between there and Manchester could be stated.

 

[Purple Orange]

May I enquire if TfGM have held discussions with the relevant authority that controls Warrington in which the official views of that area concerning a possible replacement of the existing heavy rail service between there and Manchester could be stated.

It would make sense that they have, especially given that it has been in their 2040 strategy for a number of years now. Also it’s worth remembering that whether it be tram-train or light rail metro, it doesn’t mean heavy rail services won’t also operate the line. Plus, there are the plans for an NPR line via Warrington, providing faster more frequent trains.

 

[CJ]

For example in theory I would be completely FOR the idea of converting the Piccadilly to Airport line to Metrolink

As someone who lives close by to the Airport Line, I would be against this line being converted to Metrolink.

The reason being is because it not only connects many train services to/from the Airport, but also acts as a diversionary route for Avanti/XC/TfW services in the event the Stockport line is blocked, and is also great that this line has connections to Wilmslow & Crewe (and as Greybeard mentioned, the freight container trains use this line to travel to/from Trafford Park, which would mean that it would need to go via Stockport if converted, and would mean a reduction in passenger services on that line).

What the line does need though is returning to regular half-hourly local service stops, which the Manchester Recovery Taskforce consultation has offered potential solutions for.

 

[Purple Orange]

As someone who lives close by to the Airport Line, I would be against this line being converted to Metrolink.

The reason being is because it not only connects many train services to/from the Airport, but also acts as a diversionary route for Avanti/XC/TfW services in the event the Stockport line is blocked, and is also great that this line has connections to Wilmslow & Crewe (and as Greybeard mentioned, the freight container trains use this line to travel to/from Trafford Park, which would mean that it would need to go via Stockport if converted, and would mean a reduction in passenger services on that line).

What the line does need though is returning to regular half-hourly local service stops, which the Manchester Recovery Taskforce consultation has offered potential solutions for.

The line really needs to be a dedicated all stop airport service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The line really needs to be a dedicated all stop airport service.

In essence a Merseyrail style service with EMUs, 4tph would be about right. Perhaps two from the main trainshed and two round Ordsall, with TPE stopping using the punctuality destruction line

 

[Purple Orange]

In essence a Merseyrail style service with EMUs, 4tph would be about right. Perhaps two from the main trainshed and two round Ordsall, with TPE stopping using the punctuality destruction line

I’d have it as 6 tph, going around the chord. The idea being that any railway station you go to in Central Manchester, there is an airport service leaving every 10 mins. I’d also make the destination Bradford 3 tph and Burnley 3 tph, on an electrified line of course.

 

[Ianno87]

The line really needs to be a dedicated all stop airport service.

In essence a Merseyrail style service with EMUs, 4tph would be about right. Perhaps two from the main trainshed and two round Ordsall, with TPE stopping using the punctuality destruction line

I’d have it as 6 tph, going around the chord. The idea being that any railway station you go to in Central Manchester, there is an airport service leaving every 10 mins. I’d also make the destination Bradford 3 tph and Burnley 3 tph, on an electrified line of course.

And every time this gets proposed, nobody ever explains what happens to all the other services that run through Castlefield. They don't evaporate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And every time this gets proposed, nobody ever explains what happens to all the other services that run through Castlefield. They don't evaporate.

As I've said many times before, the Chord TPEs into Piccadilly main station so no TPE Chord service.

 

[Purple Orange]

And every time this gets proposed, nobody ever explains what happens to all the other services that run through Castlefield. They don't evaporate.

It would not happen until NPR & HS2 is built, but as Bletchleyite suggests, there have been plenty of suggestions as to what should happen to services through Oxford Road.

 

[Ianno87]

As I've said many times before, the Chord TPEs into Piccadilly main station so no TPE Chord service.

...and the stuff from Bolton and Liverpool?

It would not happen until NPR & HS2 is built, but as Bletchleyite suggests, there have been plenty of suggestions as to what should happen to services through Oxford Road.

NPR doesn't replace the need to provide services from Bolton etc.

 

[EastisECML]

I’d have it as 6 tph, going around the chord. The idea being that any railway station you go to in Central Manchester, there is an airport service leaving every 10 mins. I’d also make the destination Bradford 3 tph and Burnley 3 tph, on an electrified line of course.

Would those be the only trains going through Castlefield?

 

[Purple Orange]

...and the stuff from Bolton and Liverpool?



NPR doesn't replace the need to provide services from Bolton etc.

Would those be the only trains going through Castlefield?

Given roughly 12 tph can go through Oxford Road, there will be other services through Castlefield. The network through Manchester needs to be simplified and if the CLC is converted to Metro east & west of Warrington we could have the scenario whereby we have 6 tph from Bolton & 6 tph from Rochdale going through Oxford Road & Piccadilly. Chat Moss all run through Victoria.

 

[RHolmes]

Given roughly 12 tph can go through Oxford Road, there will be other services through Castlefield. The network through Manchester needs to be simplified and if the CLC is converted to Metro east & west of Warrington we could have the scenario whereby we have 6 tph from Bolton & 6 tph from Rochdale going through Oxford Road & Piccadilly. Chat Moss all run through Victoria.

Except the CLC isn’t being converted to Metrolink so that doesn’t solve the question

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except the CLC isn’t being converted to Metrolink so that doesn’t solve the question

That is not a given.