Should/will Windermere be wired as part of the 2026-2036 WCML rewire?

[Bletchleyite]

Correct - another little known fact (albeit slightly off topic) is that Oxenholme Feeder Station, being originally destined for another location on West Coast where planning permission was refused, doesn't have the spare physical capacity to accommodate an extra Circuit Breaker necessary to feed the Windermere Branch.

All good points, but if the Windermere line is to every be wired, wouldn't it be the most cost effective way of doing it, to combine it the main WCML rewire?

Obviously depends on what Northern's new unit order is when it eventually emerges, but if it involves batteries it might genuinely not be necessary. It's not like freight or charters go down there, as there are no paths but the passenger ones unless you want to go in the middle of the night.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

No, simply provide units battery for the off wire Windermere branch. It is time to look seriously at the cost of OLE and possibilities of using battery technology.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Currently a Windermere train comes from Manchester, runs back and forth a bit, then goes back to Manchester, and the batteries could probably hold enough for the 60-80 miles of those back and forth (+ a bit of time to charge at Oxenholme P3).

I don't know how fast batteries can be charged from the OLE at a standstill, but is there a risk of them running out of charge if 1 unit was required to go back and forth all day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know how fast batteries can be charged from the OLE at a standstill, but is there a risk of them running out of charge if 1 unit was required to go back and forth all day?

They don't do that, they come up, do 2-3 shuttles and go back. If they needed to do shuttles all day on rare occasions due to e.g. engineering works they could just send a DMU up instead.

 

[HST43257]

Currently a Windermere train comes from Manchester, runs back and forth a bit, then goes back to Manchester, and the batteries could probably hold enough for the 60-80 miles of those back and forth (+ a bit of time to charge at Oxenholme P3).

I don't know how fast batteries can be charged from the OLE at a standstill, but is there a risk of them running out of charge if 1 unit was required to go back and forth all day?

I’m not sure of the answer here but does West Ealing tell us anything?

 

[Bald Rick]

Currently a Windermere train comes from Manchester, runs back and forth a bit, then goes back to Manchester, and the batteries could probably hold enough for the 60-80 miles of those back and forth (+ a bit of time to charge at Oxenholme P3).

I don't know how fast batteries can be charged from the OLE at a standstill, but is there a risk of them running out of charge if 1 unit was required to go back and forth all day?

If the batteries aren’t big enough to cooe with the diagrams, there’s two solutions:

1) more batteries
2) change the diagrams.

I can’t see any scenario where there would be OLE on the Windermere branch.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If the batteries aren’t big enough to cope with the diagrams, there’s two solutions:

1) more batteries
2) change the diagrams.

I can’t see any scenario where there would be OLE on the Windermere branch.

Windermere screams at me for a 25kV OHLE/Battery hybrid -and I say that as an out and out OHLE enthusiast.

 

[AndrewE]

Windermere screams at me for a 25kV OHLE/Battery hybrid -and I say that as an out and out OHLE enthusiast.

For God's sake, that's 2 technologies which BR hasn't managed to make work together yet, and it has been planned to death already.
There are no objections, it's a dead simple job, and the power is there just waiting for the trolley wire. JFDI.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

25kV OHLE/Battery hybrid

For God's sake, that's 2 technologies which BR hasn't managed to make work together yet

The 756s are in service now doing exactly that.

 

[AndrewE]

The 756s are in service now doing exactly that.

but how well? Wiki says

The Class 756 officially entered service on 18 November 2024, and for consecutive days,[10] after initially entering service on one previous day of 15 November 2024.[1]

It is expected that the Class 756 units will enter service on the Treherbert line over the coming months, and then move across to the Rhymney Line from late 2025 as the Class 398 tram-trains enter service.[11]

but RTT seems to say that all Treherbert trains today have been cl 150!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

but RTT seems to say that all Treherbert trains today have been cl 150!

756116 has been running Merthyr Tydfil to Aberdare (via Cardiff) all day.

 

[AndrewE]

756116 has been running Merthyr Tydfil to Aberdare (via Cardiff) all day.

so it has! It still looks as though most trains have been old DMU's though. I think I'll leave it a month or two before investing the time for a long day out to have a ride on one.
edit: sod's law, if I had tried it today I would have found the 11.13 "was cancelled between Cardiff Central and Aberdare due to a problem with the train (M8)." One before was just cancelled, another was a 150

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, absolutely. Get it wired. Quick win.

Release a load of diesels for elsewhere.

 

[Class 317]

Yes, absolutely. Get it wired. Quick win.

Release a load of diesels for elsewhere.

The BCR of wiring Windermere must be very low given the low traffic levels.

An even quicker win would be to buy battery bi modes for Northern as part of their tender for new trains across their network.

The Windermere branch can then be converted to electric operations without having to spend the cost of wiring the branch freeing up this investment for more productive wiring elsewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

The BCR of wiring Windermere must be very low given the low traffic levels.

An even quicker win would be to buy battery bi modes for Northern as part of their tender for new trains across their network.

The Windermere branch can then be converted to electric operations without having to spend the cost of wiring the branch freeing up this investment for more productive wiring elsewhere.

Decades of carting around unnecessary and expensive to maintain equipment, just to avoid electrifying the last few percent of a largely electrified route.

Such a policy is lunacy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The BCR of wiring Windermere must be very low given the low traffic levels.

The C part of that is very low, so even if the B part is low done as part of a major project it's likely to be surprisingly high, I reckon.

 

[AndrewE]

The BCR of wiring Windermere must be very low given the low traffic levels.

An even quicker win would be to buy battery bi modes for Northern as part of their tender for new trains across their network.

The Windermere branch can then be converted to electric operations without having to spend the cost of wiring the branch freeing up this investment for more productive wiring elsewhere.

Low traffic levels? It's my usual way of getting into the lakes and back home and i've never found a quiet train.

And how long does it take to get new units into traffic? A cheap trolley wire the length of the branch would a) be quick to do and b) produce a return from day 1 as it can be worked by existing stock and crews. Low cost / Short lead time / short construction time / instant return is an enrepreneur's dream!

 

[Class15]

Decades of carting around unnecessary and expensive to maintain equipment, just to avoid electrifying the last few percent of a largely electrified route.

Such a policy is lunacy.

Absolutely agree 100%, such a quick win and so much easier than fitting a load of batteries to the trains.

 

[cactustwirly]

The C part of that is very low, so even if the B part is low done as part of a major project it's likely to be surprisingly high, I reckon.

How many bridges need rebuilding that is not cheap

 

[Class15]

Low traffic levels? It's my usual way of getting into the lakes and back home and i've never found a quiet train.

And how long does it take to get new units into traffic? A cheap trolley wire the length of the branch would a) be quick to do and b) produce a return from day 1 as it can be worked by existing stock and crews. Low cost / Short lead time / short construction time / instant return is an enrepreneur's dream!

Agreed, it’s very busy and there are definitely not “low traffic levels”.

 

[cactustwirly]

Low traffic levels? It's my usual way of getting into the lakes and back home and i've never found a quiet train.

And how long does it take to get new units into traffic? A cheap trolley wire the length of the branch would a) be quick to do and b) produce a return from day 1 as it can be worked by existing stock and crews. Low cost / Short lead time / short construction time / instant return is an enrepreneur's dream!

It's only an hourly shuttle operated by a short DMU.
If the Thames Valley branches, which have higher traffic levels, didn't justify electrification then why does Windermere?

 

[AndrewE]

It's only an hourly shuttle operated by a short DMU.

apart from the ones which run to Manchester Airport...

If the Thames Valley branches, which have higher traffic levels, didn't justify electrification then why does Windermere?

that says more about the UK's lack of logic or vision than it does about the wisdom of wiring branches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's only an hourly shuttle operated by a short DMU.

Very often a long DMU now - 6.195 is basically the same as the 8-car 20m formations you usually get around London. And there are three through services to/from Manchester a day (those are the busiest). The days of it being a 2-car are long gone, unless Northern just can't manage anything else, and if that happens people will likely be left behind.

If the Thames Valley branches, which have higher traffic levels, didn't justify electrification then why does Windermere?

To be honest I think they do justify electrification. There shouldn't be any diesel operation in the South East at all, really - the islands of it are an operational hassle and give the wrong impression in pollution terms. The Marston Vale is another example (and I guess St Albans Abbey, which was done, is a similar example to Windermere).

Given that they were wiring sidings that were barely used as part of the original WCML electrification, the mind boggles as to why they didn't do it then.

For what it's worth, I suspect a through Pendolino service from Euston, out on a Friday evening around 6-7 and back on a Sunday afternoon around 3, to/from Euston, would easily sell out were it possible to do that. Though it's not a bad connection, it is very often held for short delays.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

And how long does it take to get new units into traffic? A cheap trolley wire the length of the branch would a) be quick to do and b) produce a return from day 1 as it can be worked by existing stock and crews. Low cost / Short lead time / short construction time / instant return is an enrepreneur's dream!

You'd probably need new units to run the Windermere services, Northern in the North West is already short of EMUs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd probably need new units to run the Windermere services, Northern in the North West is already short of EMUs.

Perfectly good EMUs are going for scrap now and some already have, so that's not exactly insurmountable.

 

[Class 317]

Decades of carting around unnecessary and expensive to maintain equipment, just to avoid electrifying the last few percent of a largely electrified route.

Such a policy is lunacy.

Battery bi modes are cheaper to maintain than DMU's and much lower fuel costs.

Don't forget the cost of maintaining the OHLE once installed which will be much higher than any slight increase in maintenance costs from having to maintain the batteries.

Don't forget that most battery trains are no heavier than the diesel alternatives.

Traffic levels are low in terms of TPH and also passenger capacity per hour.

 

[AndrewE]

Battery bi modes are cheaper to maintain than DMU's and much lower fuel costs.

you don't need a battery at all if there are wires overhead - and there are lots of straight EMUs currently in use, reliable and fully proven.

Don't forget the cost of maintaining the OHLE once installed which will be much higher than any slight increase in maintenance costs from having to maintain the batteries.

the cost of maintaining a few miles of single trolley wire? (I think the proposal was that simple.)

Don't forget that most battery trains are no heavier than the diesel alternatives.

see my first line

Traffic levels are low in terms of TPH and also passenger capacity per hour.

... and this would be far too good for somewhere in the provinces? People who use the line don't think there is surplus capacity, and the National Park would love a major capacity/passenger environment improvement to encourage modal shift

 

[Class 317]

I think traffic density would not be high enough on the Thames Valley branches, NDL, Hastings to Ashford etc. It's not just in the provinces where BCR would be low.

Battery EMU's are proven overseas and are not a new technology.

Straight EMU's may be available but leasing costs are likely to be similar to battery bi modes so they won't save costs.

The cost of installing OHLE and maintaining it would be vastly more than adding a couple of additional Battery bi modes to Northerns coming order for new trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

I'm not sure why people see batteries as a threat to electrification as they are electrification and indeed are likely to improve the BCR of future electrification schemes by bringing much wider benefits than from straight EMU'S alone.

 

[stevieinselby]

You'd probably need new units to run the Windermere services, Northern in the North West is already short of EMUs.

Given the number of Sprinters that Northern has that will need to be replaced in the next few years, even if none of the EMUs currently in storage around the country are deemed to be any use then they will be getting new trains soon so there's no reason why that should be a barrier.

 

[Class15]

You'd probably need new units to run the Windermere services, Northern in the North West is already short of EMUs.

There are nine Class 323s in storage.