• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Siemens, Bombardier Said in Talks to Combine Train Units

Status
Not open for further replies.

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
Analysts are suggesting that Bombardier's UK operations, or part of, could be sold as part of any package of getting clearance for the merger in the EU. That has affectively put the units up for sale, or more accurately "open to offers".
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,694
Which is ignoring the fact that these passenger controls were purchased from an external supplier, and that the Class 387s have been a huge step up in reliability.

The same supplier as Siemens;) Bombardier got a duff batch
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
12,259
Who cares? If I buy a TV and a button falls off, chasing suppliers is not my problem. If Bombardier buy poor quality parts, it's Bombardier's fault for not managing their suppliers properly. It's only my fault if I requested that they use those parts from that supplier.

The same supplier as Siemens;) Bombardier got a duff batch

I wasn't sure, but I suspected this. There's only a few companies that design rail-compliant tactile components after all.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
16,934
The same supplier as Siemens;) Bombardier got a duff batch

Doesn't explain why Bombardier got arsey about it when the customer (rightly) complained. What does explain it is the historic ADtranz/Bombardier arrogant attitude towards customers in the U.K. Changes in management have done a lot to sort issues out since the Class 700 contract loss, though.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,276
Analysts are suggesting that Bombardier's UK operations, or part of, could be sold as part of any package of getting clearance for the merger in the EU. That has affectively put the units up for sale, or more accurately "open to offers".

That would be an interesting move. I think that the Derby factory would be a huge asset in the event of a hard brexit for the same reason I think Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port and Luton factories would be. If the maximum WTO tariff of 10% were introduced then the only way Bombardier could remain competitive for UK orders would be to make the trains in the UK and order as many parts from UK companies as possible. Hitachi would also be well placed because R&D work in Japan can't have tarrifs added and it could buy more parts from UK suppliers. Derby and Newton Aldycliffe cant supply the entire UK train stock but Bombardier Derby is running at 60% capacity and both could expand or set up satellite factories if the money was worth it.
 

NickBucks

Member
Joined
17 May 2013
Messages
219
I may have missed it but cannot recall having seen anything about this in the business press in the last fortnight. If it is not just a re-heated story I would have expected to see more especially from the Remainers and the unions.
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
I may have missed it but cannot recall having seen anything about this in the business press in the last fortnight. If it is not just a re-heated story I would have expected to see more especially from the Remainers and the unions.

This story broke on Bloomberg two days ago - see post #1!
 

LLivery

Established Member
Joined
13 Jul 2014
Messages
1,591
Location
London
Contracts generally do not take into account a company's reputation (I disagree regarding their reputation anyway).

Whilst enthusiasts may not like the Voyager it is in fact a good train with excellent reliability and performance.

If you want to see a genuinely bad quality train manufacturer look at AnsaldoBreda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V250_(train)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC4

As well as the original trams they made for Birmingham & Manchester.

I know all about AnsaldoBreda and fortunately they no longer exist.

Its not just enthusiasts who don't like Voyagers, they have been ranked badly by the passenger - never said they were bad units, but unpopular. Contracts do normally take into consideration the financial stability and corruption allegations. Considering whats going on at the moment, I don't see how its unreasonable to think twice before awarding to them.

I don't wish to seem anti-Bombardier, I use the Electrostars every day and rather like them and the 222s, S stock etc. However their problems shouldn't be ignored.
 
Last edited:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,136
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Another media report, with a bit more corporate analysis: http://montrealgazette.com/business...th-siemens-to-combine-train-units-sources-say

The piece points out that Bombardier Transportation is due to slim down by 7500, mainly in Germany, to stay afloat.

I think the UK output, Derby and signalling, are out on a limb from the main issue, because of the largely unique technical standards here.
With a decent order book, it would probably continue on its own merits whatever happens to Bombardier.
If it comes to divestment, I expect Alstom would be interested, and perhaps the Chinese.
Stadler and CAF are also looking for a base in the UK, for support if not manufacture.

Brexit adds a bit of spice, but probably isn't a decisive factor yet, with trading relationships still up in the air.
In any case there doesn't appear to be a UK-based investor for rail technology, unless someone like Rolls Royce decided to take an interest.
 

sk688

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2016
Messages
821
Location
Dublin
I expect Alstom would be interested, and perhaps the Chinese.

I dont expect Alstom to have much success now in the UK , following the huge range of issues that plagued their Juniper familly , as well as the fact that they closed Washwood Heath . They could build the new Northern / Jubilee additional trains though , considering they built the 1995/96 fleets , and those are near bombproof
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
3,175
Location
Calder Valley
I dont expect Alstom to have much success now in the UK , following the huge range of issues that plagued their Juniper familly , as well as the fact that they closed Washwood Heath . They could build the new Northern / Jubilee additional trains though , considering they built the 1995/96 fleets , and those are near bombproof

Time has moved on since then however, Alstom are producing decent products for the continent no reason for them not to be able to do the same for the UK.
Sam
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
15,303
Location
St Albans
Well they've built some of the most reliable units in Europe so, yes high quality. The 444 was crowned Britain's most reliable train at one point. Bombardier have built trains where buttons have fallen off within weeks.

And the class 700s may not be to the personal taste of some posters here, but few would agree that their design isn't what the customer ordered and the build quality wasn't amongst the best in service.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
16,934
Time has moved on since then however, Alstom are producing decent products for the continent no reason for them not to be able to do the same for the UK.

Sam

The utter screw up that was the 458 rebuild - Alstom was prime contractor - suggests they still have a very long way to go to regain credibility.
 

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
Let us nor forget classes 175 & 180; the latter still has issues to this day.
 

47802

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
3,454
I know all about AnsaldoBreda and fortunately they no longer exist.

Its not just enthusiasts who don't like Voyagers, they have been ranked badly by the passenger - never said they were bad units, but unpopular. Contracts do normally take into consideration the financial stability and corruption allegations. Considering whats going on at the moment, I don't see how its unreasonable to think twice before awarding to them.

I don't wish to seem anti-Bombardier, I use the Electrostars every day and rather like them and the 222s, S stock etc. However their problems shouldn't be ignored.

It seems to me there is a lot of nonsense talked about Voyagers which seem to be very good in terms of what they were designed for. They have a tilt profile so obviously not as roomy as a 180. interior specified by Virgin but the non Virgin specified interiors are better ie 222's, and they all should have been at least 5 coaches but that's not the trains fault but those who ordered them in the first place, they also of course were not built at Derby. By contrast the 180's have an interior which most people like better, but seem less reliable and as for the ride the last time I was a GC 180's I thought I was going to be sea sick with the carriage rolling motion I thought I was on a Ship not a train.

I personally think that UK Bombardier are certainly not as bad as some people like to make out if they were nobody would be buying trains from them, and Siemens are probably a bit overrated following the German manufacturing mentality that many people seem to have in this country now, that everything German is good and everything non German is Bad.

Also a lot of people quite frequently complain about train interiors which frequently have little relevance to the train manufacturer we are already having people moaning about the various aspects of the seating on the Anglia and Crossrail Aventra's and the Thameslink Siemens Units but at the end of the day a lot the interior is specified by train customer eg DFT/TOC not the Train Manufacturer.

As for whether any merger would be good or bad for Derby difficult to say at this stage I think
 
Last edited:

Bornin1980s

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2017
Messages
637
Another media report, with a bit more corporate analysis: http://montrealgazette.com/business...th-siemens-to-combine-train-units-sources-say


In any case there doesn't appear to be a UK-based investor for rail technology, unless someone like Rolls Royce decided to take an interest.

Rolls Royce has already invested in rail engine supply, buying MTU in Germany. I don't think they can afford a larger business right now. I just hope they can get the latest engines within UK loading gauge.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
12,259
As for whether any merger would be good or bad for Derby difficult to say at this stage I think

I imagine that if Bombardier Transportation was to be merged into Siemens Mobility, perhaps one of the concessions to be made would be that the Derby-based division would have to be spun off? Might be outlandish thinking, this, but CAF or Stadler could be interested in picking it up.

EDIT: I see that this has already been discussed above, primarily by LNW-GW Joint.
 
Last edited:

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
I may have missed it but cannot recall having seen anything about this in the business press in the last fortnight. If it is not just a re-heated story I would have expected to see more especially from the Remainers and the unions.

It has been covered in the press and it is the subject of numerous Analyst notes:

e.g.
From 2017-04-12:
Siemens, Bombardier Said in Talks to Combine Rail Units
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ier-said-in-talks-to-combine-train-operations
Siemens AG and Bombardier Inc. are in talks to combine their rail operations, according to people familiar with the matter, potentially creating a business that could better fend off increasing competition from China. ...

and from 2017-04-13:
Siemens and Bombardier in talks to merge train operations
https://www.ft.com/content/eab6d0aa-1f67-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9
Siemens’ trains operations make up the bulk of its mobility unit, which recorded €7.8bn in revenue last year. Bombardier’s rail operations are the core of its transportation unit, which took in $7.6bn last year. ...

The reporting all appears to be based on the same source, and not on an official statement from any of the parties involved.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,136
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The reporting all appears to be based on the same source, and not on an official statement from any of the parties involved.

And they are all city/finance based, without any rail specialist comment.
Railway Gazette usually has an insight into these sorts of things, but nothing visible from them.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
Another media report, with a bit more corporate analysis: http://montrealgazette.com/business...th-siemens-to-combine-train-units-sources-say

The piece points out that Bombardier Transportation is due to slim down by 7500, mainly in Germany, to stay afloat.

That 7,500 figure was for Bombardier Inc - i.e. it also included the Aviation operations and the jobs that went/are to go in Belfast, though most of the cuts would be in BT:
Bombardier to cut 7,500 more jobs across its global operations
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37728761
...
About two-thirds of the cuts will be in the rail division, Bombardier Transportation, with the rest in the aerospace division.
..
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
And they are all city/finance based, without any rail specialist comment.
Railway Gazette usually has an insight into these sorts of things, but nothing visible from them.

Yes that's right; I would not expect any in-depth reporting from the trade press at this time - the financial press works to shorter time scales and until there is a more comprehensive statement of proposals the trade press would be limited to repeating the above and to speculation as on here.

However, these discussions have been going on for sometime, with the options openly discussed going back a number of years.

Still, it does not mean that the merger/take-over will necessarily go ahead, and there have to be sufficiently pressing issues for both principles in order for them to expend the necessary resources to see this through.
 

Olaf

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
1,054
Location
UK
That would be an interesting move. I think that the Derby factory would be a huge asset in the event of a hard brexit for the same reason I think Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port and Luton factories would be. If the maximum WTO tariff of 10% were introduced then the only way Bombardier could remain competitive for UK orders would be to make the trains in the UK and order as many parts from UK companies as possible. Hitachi would also be well placed because R&D work in Japan can't have tarrifs added and it could buy more parts from UK suppliers. Derby and Newton Aldycliffe cant supply the entire UK train stock but Bombardier Derby is running at 60% capacity and both could expand or set up satellite factories if the money was worth it.

Bombardier Transportation has a number of operations in the UK each of which would be considered separately. BT has an on-going consolidation plan that will already have identified changes to the UK businesses, and will have taken into account the UK markets, product line-up and the UK's pending departure from the EU.

The detailed outcome of the UK exit negotiations are not going to be known for sometime, so they will largely be working on what they "know" now.

BT is consolidating production, within Europe, in the lower costs countries - Eastern and parts of Southern EU. That is already under-way as part of a three year plan. The difficult part is the shuttering of operations that do not fit into the consolidation plan and it is the success of that aspect that determines the viability of the business. That aspect does not appear to have been going well and may have been a contributory factor to these negotiations being initiated.

For vehicle manufacture, the high-value component sets will be shared across the product range with production undertaken in the new centres of excellence. That by and large leaves existing operations as redundant or assembly sites if they have not been identified as a centre of excellence. There is advantage to consolidating production for the EU in the Euro area or in countries with currencies effectively tied to the Euro.

In terms of the impact of BT's existing consolidation on UK operations:

  • Maintenance and technical services would undergoing efficiency improvements but I would expect them to remain largely unaffected.

  • Vehicle production; the UK is a fairly largish, and currently exuberantly robust market for BT's products, but despite existing projections that is not predicted to last. The UK market also has a tendency towards lean patches because of it's mid-size which causes difficulties for manufacturers of expensive product "unique" to the market, compared with the relative continuity of demand across the mainland EU for a relatively uniform product offering.

  • Signalling: The product range is normalising across the EU and in other markets, so consideration of UK uniqueness will be a declining factor in manufacture, with UK considerations being address by deployment services. Again, the advantage is to consolidate production in the major market.

The UK is and will continue to be a significant market, and it has similarities to markets outside Europe so it still has factors in it's favour, but the latter will mainly favour UK-based services and consultancy. I would expect BT to retain the UK signalling production operations, but to gut the vehicle production side reducing it to a design and assembly operation. The growing competition from lower cost vehicle manufactures will be a significant factor in determining the outcome.

In terms of BT's retention of the UK vehicle manufacturing arm, that will depend on how much of the UK market the business can retain. Potential buyers, with different objectives may find value in the operations, but I expect they will come from either the USA or China, and will also mainly operate it as a design and assembly operation that can be wound down or up as demand dictates. The EU-based low-cost manufactures may see benefits from a UK operation but only if it does not undermine the performance of existing operations. It could perhaps find an independent future as a design and assembly boutique operation.

That might all change if the GBP/EUR rate was to drop low enough to allow UK manufacturing to compete with Eastern Europe where the wages are typical a quarter of those in the UK. EUR 1.10 is probably about the minimum but UK services, the robustness of the economy, and the ECB's QE are currently preventing that from happening.

Throwing consolidation with Siemens Mobility operations into the mix would only have practical consequences towards the tail-end of the existing BT plan. Consolidation of the joint UK product range would certainly be on the cards. It is also possible, given the recent choices made by one of the franchise bidders, that Siemens has determined that the UK Desiro City product's future is untenable.

The competition authorities (and national Governments/interest groups by proxy) are going to be the biggest obstacle, and it is possible that a full merger is untenable, but there could still be an exchange of businesses and the formation of JVs in specific areas. The earliest we would know of any practical details of changes arising from the discussions would be six to nine months after the announcement of the outcome of the discussions.
 
Last edited:

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,694
My current understanding is that the proposal for a BT and Siemens Mobility merger was a suggestion from a third party advisory firm seeking to get the M&A advisory work. They were rebuffed by the firms and their response was to talk to the financial press in a last ditch attempt to elicit interest. This is why there has only been coverage in certain parts of the final press whovwere briefed by the 3rd party and not the rail press.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
There is more to it, Australia has refused payment on a $4.4bn contract for faulty stock and the Bombardier Rail Division is apparently experiencing a cash shortage this quarter because of it, this coming after several other failures to deliver on contracts and subsequent non payments in the last few years.

Bombardier stocks rose 15% on the merger rumour
 
Last edited:

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
7,609
I don't see how Derby could operate, separate from Bombardier or the merged company, as its product lines are so closely tied in to Bombardier technology, whether the Aventra line or Movia line (for Underground trains).

Indeed the NTfL is a major contract up for grabs, aren't Bombardier pairing up with Hitachi for this?
 

47802

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
3,454
I don't see how Derby could operate, separate from Bombardier or the merged company, as its product lines are so closely tied in to Bombardier technology, whether the Aventra line or Movia line (for Underground trains).

Indeed the NTfL is a major contract up for grabs, aren't Bombardier pairing up with Hitachi for this?

Indeed and who ever gets that might have some bearing on things going forward.

For instance the only way I see CAF opening a UK plant would be if they got that contract.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top