Sign language on departure boards

[K.o.R]

On several of the stations up to Newcastle I see they have added a person doing sign language on the various departure boards.

My question is... what purpose/problem does it serve/solve? A sighted person can read the text on the board, and a non-sighted person would be listening to the announcements. It also seems weird that the person does not have subtitles so you could be certain of what they are currently interpreting.

 

[800001]

On several of the stations up to Newcastle I see they have added a person doing sign language on the various departure boards.

My question is... what purpose/problem does it serve/solve? A sighted person can read the text on the board, and a non-sighted person would be listening to the announcements. It also seems weird that the person does not have subtitles so you could be certain of what they are currently interpreting.

Sign Language is a distinct language with its own grammar and structure, different from spoken languages like English.

For people who are deaf an announcement or text is often difficult for them to understand, so sign language on the CIS screens at stations is a massive help and benefit to them.

 

[flitwickbeds]

As well as, as above, sign language grammar and sentence structure being different to English - some people born deaf at birth *only* know BSL and have never learnt English. In which case, it would be the equivalent of you looking at a screen of Mandarin or Arabic.

 

[D1537]

As well as, as above, sign language grammar and sentence structure being different to English - some people born deaf at birth *only* know BSL and have never learnt English. In which case, it would be the equivalent of you looking at a screen of Mandarin or Arabic.

Or, more commonly, they do know written English, but only as a second language and therefore process it more slowly than BSL. Obviously the bare list of station stops for each train on the PIS is unlikely to be an issue for most people, but there is far more information being transmitted by station announcements than simply where a train stops, and at quite a rapid rate in many cases...

"The next train to arrive at Platform 1 is the 14:18 Trans-Pennine service to Liverpool Lime Street, calling at Northallerton, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Lea Green and Liverpool Lime Street. This train has 5 coaches. First class accommodation in Zone 8, standard class accommodation in Zones 4 to 7. Due to short platforms, passengers for Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green should travel in the front 3 coaches."

 

[edwin_m]

Or, more commonly, they do know written English, but only as a second language and therefore process it more slowly than BSL. Obviously the bare list of station stops for each train on the PIS is unlikely to be an issue for most people, but there is far more information being transmitted by station announcements than simply where a train stops, and at quite a rapid rate in many cases...

"The next train to arrive at Platform 1 is the 14:18 Trans-Pennine service to Liverpool Lime Street, calling at Northallerton, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Victoria, Newton-le-Willows, Lea Green and Liverpool Lime Street. This train has 5 coaches. First class accommodation in Zone 8, standard class accommodation in Zones 4 to 7. Due to short platforms, passengers for Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green should travel in the front 3 coaches."

Doesn't that mean they will have to wait for ages for the signer to cycle through all the trains on the departure screen, rather nullifying the point of a system that's intended to be understood faster than those screens?

 

[D1537]

Doesn't that mean they will have to wait for ages for the signer to cycle through all the trains on the departure screen, rather nullifying the point of a system that's intended to be understood faster than those screens?

From what I've seen, the approaching train will be the only one displayed and signed on the screen which is on the departure platform. On central screens they are cycled through (and on platform screens when there is no approaching train).

 

[DarloRich]

My question is... what purpose/problem does it serve/solve?

to answer: what harm can it do? It might help some people gain access to the railway network who might otherwise be unable to use trains.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Doesn't that mean they will have to wait for ages for the signer to cycle through all the trains on the departure screen, rather nullifying the point of a system that's intended to be understood faster than those screens?

Isn't that like saying announcements are pointless because they can only announce one thing at a time?

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

It also seems weird that the person does not have subtitles so you could be certain of what they are currently interpreting.

Although there aren't subtitles as such, on the summary departure screens the train being signed is highlighted in a different colour to the rest; the highlight moves down the list as the interpreter does each one.
I kinda like it, and as @DarloRich says what harm is it doing?
Anything that makes the railway more accessible is a good thing.

 

[K.o.R]

I guess I hadn't considered this scenario - for someone with total hearing loss who did not already know how to read, how do you teach them (to read or to sign)? I can only assume a huge list of pictures with the accompanying word and/or sign gesture?

I definitely don't recall seeing anything highlighting the currently-signed part of the screen (but that might have been a single departure rather than the list).

The person being really small probably isn't great, but limited space on the screen.

 

[HSTEd]

LNERs implemention of this has resulted in screens scrolling extraordinarily slowly as each train is signed in turn.

In my view, this has significantly reduced the usefulness of the screens.
If this is going to become the norm then screens should be provided for all pages of a departure board and cycling through pages should be rarely, if ever, used.

Although there aren't subtitles as such, on the summary departure screens the train being signed is highlighted in a different colour to the rest; the highlight moves down the list as the interpreter does each one.
I kinda like it, and as @DarloRich says what harm is it doing?

People end up standing there waiting for ages for this to finish so it will show the next page of departures

 

[Cricketer8for9]

What do deaf people think? A hearing person saying something is wrong seems wrong.

 

[renegademaster]

The thing to consider is how many extra passenger assist staff could have been hired with the money that likely come out of the pot, and how large the "can understand BSL well but cannot read well" demographic actually is? The thing is this might have been quite cheap to do, just hard to know.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What do deaf people think? A hearing person saying something is wrong seems wrong.

Well... I'm deaf, but I don't know sign language so I don't use these screens and just look for another screen where the information scrolls faster - a point raised above.

Earlier in the thread someone stated that some deaf people might know sign language but have trouble with normal written text - I think that is quite possible but I am not personally aware of any such people myself ( but that doesn't mean they don't exist ).

 

[The exile]

In my view, this has significantly reduced the usefulness of the screens.
If this is going to become the norm then screens should be provided for all pages of a departure board and cycling through pages should be rarely, if ever, used.

Even without this, it is exceedingly frustrating to have to wait while info cycles through 4 pages on a single board when your connection leaves in 2 minutes. If summary screens need to scroll due to the traffic density, then there should be two - one always showing page 1 and the second scrolling through the rest. “This platform” screens should always show the next departure if it’s within 20 minutes or so. Mind you, no station screens I’ve ever met are as bad as Bath Bus Station, which cycles slowly through 5 screens (by which time you’re often being shown the third departure on a particular route but have missed the one you were looking for)

 

[norbitonflyer]

. “This platform” screens should always show the next departure if it’s within 20 minutes or so.

If only. Ours often switch to a security announcement, or weekend maintenance closures on a completely different line, just as a train approaches.

 

[TurboMan]

I guess I hadn't considered this scenario - for someone with total hearing loss who did not already know how to read, how do you teach them (to read or to sign)? I can only assume a huge list of pictures with the accompanying word and/or sign gesture?

There is deaf and there is Deaf. The former refers to anyone with hearing loss - that might be acquired, or from birth. The latter (with an upper case D) refers to Deaf identity, with its own language (BSL in Britain, but most countries have their own sign language) and culture.

In Britain, many people who see themselves as Deaf use BSL, and BSL is their first language: it's what they use at home, with friends at Deaf Club etc. Deaf people may be born to Deaf parents, and therefore learn to communicate in BSL from birth. As with all cultures, there are differing viewpoints, but many Deaf people are fiercely proud of their culture and language and don't wish to use English other than where necessary in order to communicate with the wider world; this can mean that some Deaf people have limited ability in English. Hence a lot of organisations now offer communication in BSL (using resources such as Interpreters Live). Some Deaf people are opposed to the use of cochlear implants to enable a d(D)eaf person to hear, as they see that as adopting an entirely different culture.

I am not deaf/Deaf but have studied a bit about Deaf culture while learning BSL and have Deaf friends; as such, I don't really feel I can act as a spokesperson for the Deaf community, so here's a link to the BDA website that explains a bit more: What is Deaf culture? (quote below)

Like many linguistic minorities, Deaf people enjoy a unique culture, as worthy of respect as any other. The Deaf way of life is quite fascinating. It is only in recent years that research has begun to explore different aspects of Deaf relationships, communication and society.

 

[D1537]

From Darlington a few minutes ago. The 0924 to Edinburgh is being signed on the platform 4 screen, whilst the signer on the concourse screen is cycling through the services.

 

[JaJaWa]

I was stunned to see this on the Busan Metro in South Korea

 

[alxndr]

Earlier in the thread someone stated that some deaf people might know sign language but have trouble with normal written text - I think that is quite possible but I am not personally aware of any such people myself ( but that doesn't mean they don't exist ).

I haven’t met anyone, but have come across people in other online spaces who are Deaf, and often the syntax of their written English ends up being quite similar to BSL. It really wouldn’t surprise me if they struggled to parse complex written English as well as the languages are so different.

A quick google throws up this:

The report, in partnership with the National Deaf Children’s Society (NDCS), found deaf children were on average almost a year and a half (17.5 months) of learning behind their classmates, who did not have any special needs, by their GCSEs in 2019. This lost learning typically results in deaf pupils losing out on more than a whole grade in each of the vital GCSE subjects of maths and English, impacting future career paths and earnings

I would expect older Deaf adults to be more disadvantaged as the education sector has generally become more aware of the need to target factors like this in recent decades.

 

[OscarH]

there is far more information being transmitted by station announcements than simply where a train stops

Exactly! They need to be told about 61016 like the rest of us

 

[NewcastleBrown]

The thing to consider is how many extra passenger assist staff could have been hired with the money that likely come out of the pot, and how large the "can understand BSL well but cannot read well" demographic actually is? The thing is this might have been quite cheap to do, just hard to know.

I think this is probably the most important part of the discussion - in the last census there were only 25k people for whom sign language is their main language, so the chance of these people walking through any given station on a day is probably quite low. This is probably quite poor value for money when weighted against other access schemes that could have been done, but it does have the advantage (for the railway) of being very visible, whilst the hard work on turning up to help people on trains is less noticeable by the general public.

 

[Western Gaffer]

Exactly! They need to be told about 61016 like the rest of us

"See it. Sign it. Sorted"?