Signal Box Opening Times

[Andy873]

There are some threads touching on this but I came across an 1884 working time table
(L&Y) which had signal box opening and closing times which I was please to see as by BR WTT's don't show, just the boxes.

Was this practice common place with other rail companies? and does anyone have an LMS WTT that covers Lancashire or earlier?

The L&Y WTT does give me a good insight as to what boxes were open 24/7 and which boxes were at certain times switched out.

 

[6Gman]

There are some threads touching on this but I came across an 1884 working time table
(L&Y) which had signal box opening and closing times which I was please to see as by BR WTT's don't show, just the boxes.

Was this practice common place with other rail companies? and does anyone have an LMS WTT that covers Lancashire or earlier?

The L&Y WTT does give me a good insight as to what boxes were open 24/7 and which boxes were at certain times switched out.

In BR days there were separate booklets which listed signalbox opening times - I have a copy somewhere but I'm not sure whether it was done by region or by smaller units (for example many LMR documents were by "Line" - i.e. Midland, Western & Central).

Heaven alone knows where I've put it.

The gent who runs WTTReprints may have some. (Having had a quick browse the only ones he seems to have are for the Exeter and Chester Districts of the Western Region in the very early 1950s. They can be downloaded for free.)

 

[Andy873]

Sorry for the late reply, I have been away for a few days.

@6Gman Thank you for your reply and that link!!! I've been searching in vein for special traffic notices, and here there are quite a number of them covering all regions.

If anyone wants to look for STN's, here's the link to the home page of WTT reprints.

 

[6Gman]

Sorry for the late reply, I have been away for a few days.

@6Gman Thank you for your reply and that link!!! I've been searching in vein for special traffic notices, and here there are quite a number of them covering all regions.

If anyone wants to look for STN's, here's the link to the home page of WTT reprints.

I thoroughly recommend WTT Reprints as a source of information, and the guy who runs it is very helpful.

Although the material he offers is almost entirely 1950s (which suits me fine since that's my main area of interest!) much of it also gives a good flavour of earlier, and to a lesser degree later, times.

And there's lots of smaller interesting stuff for free download.

 

[Gloster]

It should be noted that in the pre-BR days it was much more common to switch boxes out for periods. Some would only open to shunt the local goods, others would open for busy periods, but close when it was slack. Some boxes had to be open as long as the line was open: junctions requiring to be used, level-crossings, loops requiring to be used, etc., but they always did their best to cut the box hours to the minimum practical without messing the timetable up so that they could use the staff on other jobs and (hopefully) keep total staff numbers down.

 

[Andy873]

It should be noted that in the pre-BR days it was much more common to switch boxes out for periods. Some would only open to shunt the local goods, others would open for busy periods, but close when it was slack. Some boxes had to be open as long as the line was open: junctions requiring to be used, level-crossings, loops requiring to be used, etc., but they always did their best to cut the box hours to the minimum practical without messing the timetable up so that they could use the staff on other jobs and (hopefully) keep total staff numbers down.

@Gloster Thanks for that, I always welcome your input on things, always helpful.

The L&Y 1884 WTT does show me the patten of box opening / closing, for instance after 9.30pm on a Sunday until 6am Monday only one box was open along my old branch line. During that period, Padiham Station East box would be in direct contact with Great Harwood Junction box (Blackburn), a distance of around 7 miles or Rose Grove West - 2 miles.

From the 1919 LYR block regs, a box could ask (in case the phone was out) who am I working with? (a special bell code of) 6-5-5.

The replies would be one of these:

Rose Grove West 4-8
Padiham 3-8
Simonstone 2-8
Martholme Colliery 2-7
Great Harwood East 5-6
Great Harwood West 5-7
Norden 5-8
Queen Brick Siding 5-9
Great Harwood Junction 4-9

I still find it amazing that after all these years such details are still available if you know where to look and who to ask!

 

[Rescars]

6-5-5. Code for "knock, knock, who's there"?

 

[Gloster]

I never did like any bell code that started with six straight beats. The moment you hear that pause after six you are starting to hurl yourself towards the levers…and, yes, your heart does give a jump.

 

[Andy873]

6-5-5. Code for "knock, knock, who's there"?

Good one

I never did like any bell code that started with six straight beats. The moment you hear that pause after six you are starting to hurl yourself towards the levers…and, yes, your heart does give a jump.

@Gloster What in your experience could a bell code starting with six beats mean?

 

[Gloster]

@Gloster What in your experience could a bell code starting with six beats mean?

Six beats sent without a pause was ‘Obstruction Danger’. If box A sent it to box B it meant, amongst other things, do not allow any trains to come from your box towards mine as there is an emergency. The signalman at B, if they had cleared the signals, would put them back to danger as fast as possible. If a train is just about to pass your most Advanced Starting Signal, you move fast to get that signal back to Danger before the train passes it. I have once had to race the length of the frame (85 levers) to do that and I knew someone who cracked a rib doing so.

 

[Eyersey468]

Six beats sent without a pause was ‘Obstruction Danger’. If box A sent it to box B it meant, amongst other things, do not allow any trains to come from your box towards mine as there is an emergency. The signalman at B, if they had cleared the signals, would put them back to danger as fast as possible. If a train is just about to pass your most Advanced Starting Signal, you move fast to get that signal back to Danger before the train passes it. I have once had to race the length of the frame (85 levers) to do that and I knew someone who cracked a rib doing so.

How would the signalman get a message to the train in steam days if it had passed the advanced starting signal and the obstruction danger message came through?

 

[Gloster]

How would the signalman get a message to the train in steam days if it had passed the advanced starting signal and the obstruction danger message came through?

In most situations he couldn’t and there was nothing more to be done other than tell the signalman at A, if possible, that he hadn’t been able to stop the train. There were occasions when he might be able to contact an intermediate station, gate box, PW hut or (and I have been told it happened) an off duty member of staff in a lineside cottage and get them to show the driver a red. This was still the situation when I was a signalman in the 1980s.

 

[Andy873]

Six beats sent without a pause was ‘Obstruction Danger’. If box A sent it to box B it meant, amongst other things, do not allow any trains to come from your box towards mine as there is an emergency. The signalman at B, if they had cleared the signals, would put them back to danger as fast as possible. If a train is just about to pass your most Advanced Starting Signal, you move fast to get that signal back to Danger before the train passes it. I have once had to race the length of the frame (85 levers) to do that and I knew someone who cracked a rib doing so.

I can see now why your heart might jump with those six beats then.

In most situations he couldn’t and there was nothing more to be done other than tell the signalman at A, if possible, that he hadn’t been able to stop the train. There were occasions when he might be able to contact an intermediate station, gate box, PW hut or (and I have been told it happened) an off duty member of staff in a lineside cottage and get them to show the driver a red. This was still the situation when I was a signalman in the 1980s.

That would be a very serious and dangerous situation and you'd obviously fear the worst. As you say, probably the only chance would be to get someone lineside and wave a red.

 

[edwin_m]

It should be noted that in the pre-BR days it was much more common to switch boxes out for periods. Some would only open to shunt the local goods, others would open for busy periods, but close when it was slack. Some boxes had to be open as long as the line was open: junctions requiring to be used, level-crossings, loops requiring to be used, etc., but they always did their best to cut the box hours to the minimum practical without messing the timetable up so that they could use the staff on other jobs and (hopefully) keep total staff numbers down.

The boxes that could be closed were also the ones that didn't control anything critical and could be replaced by ground frames or intermediate block signals, or removed entirely as traffic decreased. That has the inevitable consequence that of those boxes that remained, a smaller proportion would be able to be switched out during hours the line was still open.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I wonder what the time record was for a signal box being switched out (whilst still in regular use). The Western Region installed an intermediate box at Parsons Tunnel between Dawlish and Teignmouth which was only open on summer saturdays. It only had a handful of levers (essentially up/down distant and starter) but had the highest classification due to the density of traffic when it was in use.

Why they didn’t just install intermediate block signals I don’t know, although trains were regularly detained at signals for extended periods on summer Saturdays so perhaps it was deliberate so a signalman was present and could advise traincrew of the reasons for delay?

 

[Gloster]

I wonder what the time record was for a signal box being switched out (whilst still in regular use). The Western Region installed an intermediate box at Parsons Tunnel between Dawlish and Teignmouth which was only open on summer saturdays. It only had a handful of levers (essentially up/down distant and starter) but had the highest classification due to the density of traffic when it was in use.

Why they didn’t just install intermediate block signals I don’t know, although trains were regularly detained at signals for extended periods on summer Saturdays so perhaps it was deliberate so a signalman was present and could advise traincrew of the reasons for delay?

Possibly they didn’t trust the more primitive track circuits of those days to work in an area prone to salt water inundation. Someone may have calculated that the cost of delays and disruption due to TC failures would far outweigh the savings made from abolition of the box. I doubt that having somebody on the spot would be regarded as sufficient grounds for retention.

 

[Eyersey468]

In most situations he couldn’t and there was nothing more to be done other than tell the signalman at A, if possible, that he hadn’t been able to stop the train. There were occasions when he might be able to contact an intermediate station, gate box, PW hut or (and I have been told it happened) an off duty member of staff in a lineside cottage and get them to show the driver a red. This was still the situation when I was a signalman in the 1980s.

Thanks

 

[Rescars]

I wonder what the time record was for a signal box being switched out (whilst still in regular use). The Western Region installed an intermediate box at Parsons Tunnel between Dawlish and Teignmouth which was only open on summer saturdays. It only had a handful of levers (essentially up/down distant and starter) but had the highest classification due to the density of traffic when it was in use.

Why they didn’t just install intermediate block signals I don’t know, although trains were regularly detained at signals for extended periods on summer Saturdays so perhaps it was deliberate so a signalman was present and could advise traincrew of the reasons for delay?

In similar vein to regular switching out, there were the additional boxes on the Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner branches operated on race days only to handle the Derby and similar traffic. The Epsom Downs boxes were creatively labelled A, B and C. The Tattenham Corner line stretched to proper names, including the attractively named (or otherwise) Asylum Box!

An altogether different proposition was the switching out of block posts on single lines. The LMS equipped the Port Road in Galloway for "long section" working. This involved a separate set of tablet instruments interlinked with the normal instruments used for short section working and special arrangements so that switched out boxes could be opened and switched back in by the local stationmaster should an emergency arise (like a train break down mid-section).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The Severn Valley Railway has long and short section instruments either side of Highley, allowing both Arley and/or Hampton Loade to be switched out on quieter days. (Interestingly the long Highley-Bridgnorth token also unlocks the groundframe at Eardington.)

I don’t know if this is unique in preservation.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Heaven alone knows where I've put it.

Ditto. Me too. Have been hunting high and low, but I'll be damned if I can find where it's hiding....it's here somewhere...

I never did like any bell code that started with six straight beats.

Never received same (thankfully!), but had it drilled in to 'one' on the training course (Beckenham in my case). Kept a book (a lightly used school exercise book from 18 months before) in which I made numerous notes and diagrams, in addition to the official hand outs, which I still have, starting off with the old school basics of simple block working. The cornerstone of everything that has passed since I like to think.

 

[Rescars]

The Severn Valley Railway has long and short section instruments either side of Highley, allowing both Arley and/or Hampton Loade to be switched out on quieter days. (Interestingly the long Highley-Bridgnorth token also unlocks the groundframe at Eardington.)

I don’t know if this is unique in preservation.

There can't be many other examples, surely? Does the Highley installation date back to the GWR/BR era, or is this a post-preservation SVR innovation, I wonder?

 

[Gloster]

There can't be many other examples, surely? Does the Highley installation date back to the GWR/BR era, or is this a post-preservation SVR innovation, I wonder?

According to the SRS’s GWR Register, Highley did not have a switch in pre-preservation days. It is my opinion that switching apparatus on single lines was expensive and so was only installed on those few lines where a minimal service ran through the night: it was mostly cheaper to switch in all boxes early or keep them open to late.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The other reality was that Alveley colliery sidings (roughly where Country Park Halt is now) was the principal traffic generator on the line, so I suspect the Highley-Hampton section was potentially the busiest bit

 

[matchmaker]

I never did like any bell code that started with six straight beats. The moment you hear that pause after six you are starting to hurl yourself towards the levers…and, yes, your heart does give a jump.

On the North Clyde lines the 3-1-2 was normally rattled out at full speed. Not good for anyone of a nervous disposition!

 

[Gloster]

On the North Clyde lines the 3-1-2 was normally rattled out at full speed. Not good for anyone of a nervous disposition!

You might be surprised at how good signalmen were at spotting the minuscule pauses between the bells.

 

[30907]

According to the SRS’s GWR Register, Highley did not have a switch in pre-preservation days. It is my opinion that switching apparatus on single lines was expensive and so was only installed on those few lines where a minimal service ran through the night: it was mostly cheaper to switch in all boxes early or keep them open to late.

A search of SR SWDivision working timetables rather confirms this - the only one I can find is Verwood on the Salisbury to West Moors line, which had one passenger/news and a freight in the small hours, but came into its own during the day. Oddly Breamore was less used but not so fitted.

 

[Falcon1200]

An altogether different proposition was the switching out of block posts on single lines.

After BR singled the Barrhead/Kilmarnock line, the one remaining loop and therefore signalbox was at Lugton, which could switch out - Including when trains were in section, as long as they were heading away! And since the Lugton/Lochridge section was redoubled the box can still be switched out, on Sundays for example, meaning that all trains use one of the two platforms at Dunlop and Stewarton; There are signs at the stations advising passengers of this.

 

[Railsigns]

And since the Lugton/Lochridge section was redoubled the box can still be switched out, on Sundays for example, meaning that all trains use one of the two platforms at Dunlop and Stewarton

Since Barrhead signal box was closed in 2022, Lugton box is unable to switch out since it's the fringe box to West of Scotland Signalling Centre and works Track Circuit Block to the north and Tokenless Block to the south.

 

[Falcon1200]

Since Barrhead signal box was closed in 2022, Lugton box is unable to switch out since it's the fringe box to West of Scotland Signalling Centre and works Track Circuit Block to the north and Tokenless Block to the south.

Thanks for the correction, I should have realised things had changed when Barrhead SB closed!

 

[Andy873]

Perhaps this is off topic, but I'd like to get clear in my head what block instruments would a box have:

1. You are working box B
2. Either side of you are boxes A & C.
3. This a a double line (Up & Down).

Questions:
Would you have two block instruments, one for the Up line and one for the Down line?
Presumably you would have a block instrument showing the state of the line from box A & C? and again would these be one or two instruments?
Would the bell for the bell codes be incorporated in these instruments?