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Signal 'peg'

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50006Neptune

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Sirs, out of interest I've been picked up (again) on one of my picture postings on Facebook.
Regards the Semaphore Signal acronym 'peg', from a comment received.
It's been muted that this doesn't apply on the Western Region?
The term used here is 'Board'?
Can I be absolutely clear the term 'peg' is for particular Regions? Regards H.
 
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Elecman

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Well I’ve certainly heard Western Ops and Engineering staff to Semaphore signals as Pegs
 

Rob F

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In one of the books about the Great Central London Extension that I own, a signalman refers to his signals as 'boards'.
 

D7666

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The origin of the term 'peg' for signal lies in an old type of block instrument that required a peg to be inserted for certain operations to operate signals. Does not matter here exactly what it did, nor details of the devices, that differed from maker to maker.

The loose term 'peg' for a signal used on those railways with that type of pegging block instrument, and the term 'got the peg', really means the peg had been used on the block instrument - but was adopted for 'got the signal', in turn peg for signal, and probably corrupted over time, and distorted and misunderstood by enthusiasts.

It is not a term used everywhere, I agree, and, if you say not used on WR (and I can't say one way or the other) I suspect this will be because (G)WR maybe (question) not used that type of instrument ? You have to be careful about what staff as people move around from area to area and railway to railway. And railway Regions borders changes.

As peg is unofficial for a signal, one can not give any absolutely clear answer for region, be it previous BR operating region or geographical legacy.

Board must be pretty obvious ?

On top of all this, generally, there are many influences to unofficial names or official names, just like the current thread q.v. re signal box and signal cabin. And terms used by railway staff are not always, in fact quite often not, those used in the enthusiast world (e.g. 'duff' v. "four and a half" combines just about every variable I can think of.
 
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Big Jumby 74

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And terms used by railway staff are not always, in fact quite often not, those used in the enthusiast world
I would concur with your comment completely. My first job post school was in the signalling grade, and as a result I was guided by the guys I worked with (and have the utmost respect for), one of whom was on duty when Herr Goring's Stuka's were causing havoc over my colleagues patch. My point being here, we all pick up phrases, nick names etc that our seniors used on the job. Shunt signals (to me) will always be 'Dummies', but others on here will refer to them by other names, as they grew up with no doubt. There's no right or wrong as far as I'm concerned, just variations of...!
 

Gloster

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Somewhere or other, I can’t remember whether it was when I worked on the the Southern Region or the Western (more likely the latter, but some of my colleagues there were ex-SR), I came across signalmen who referred to giving a Line Clear as ‘pegging up’. I suspect that a lot of staff would acquire the phraseology used by the men who taught them or they first worked with and it remained with them for their career, to be passed on to those they taught.

Like @Big Jumby 74 I learnt most of my terms on the SR and always used Dummy, but others used Dolly. As I have written before, always beware that the slang that railway writers put forward is not always what the staff used: it may have been misheard, it may have been one individual’s preference, somebody may have been taking a rise out of the enthusiast, etc. But because the enthusiast’s writings are much more widely disseminated they become the ’accepted’ version. I am sure that many staff have, like me, been corrected by some little ******* as to their use of some term.
 

D7666

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. As I have written before, always beware that the slang that railway writers put forward is not always what the staff used: it may have been misheard, it may have been one individual’s preference, somebody may have been taking a rise out of the enthusiast, etc. But because the enthusiast’s writings are much more widely disseminated they become the ’accepted’ version. I am sure that many staff have, like me, been corrected by some little ******* as to their use of some term.
I did not work in railway industry until 20 years ago by which time I'm in my 40s, and I joined the London underground environment not main line.

Right from Day 1 I made sure I learnt the 'proper' LU use, be it official terminology or slang, and not to use crank slang, but to ask first before putting my foot in it. An example is LT junction route indicators (3 white lights on LU not 5); this one is a typical example of a mis-hearing that you allude to; I had heard these called what I thought was "harbour lights" (and some people write this) but the term, apparently, is "arbor lights". Far from it being derived from some kind of marine indicator, which I had thought, it is from Latin arbor for 'a tree' => branch. At least that is what I was told; someone else might have a yet further version. Another one is 'blocking back' that I'm not going to type out here but is completely different on LT/LU to BR/NR.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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I started my railway enthusiast period March 1970. On the WestCoast Main Line the phrase - the signal is pegged was often used. Not heard it for ages unti this thread though!
 

75A

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I was on the footplate @ Brighton in the early 80's and shunting signals were called dummies, signals pegs and the route indicators on top of signals feathers by everyone.

A chap from Newhaven would call yellow signals bananas, as in you've got 2 bananas meaning I had a double yellow.
 

Ashley Hill

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I can’t say I’ve ever heard signals referred to as pegs on the WR but am aware of the term used for them elsewhere.
Peg up and peg out on block instruments I’ve heard though.
 

Belperpete

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Like @Big Jumby 74 I learnt most of my terms on the SR and always used Dummy, but others used Dolly.
As opposed to a "doll", which is the post on a bracket or gantry.

I would be very careful about being told that this is the way the Western does it, as practices in different parts of the region could vary significantly.
 

Gloster

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As opposed to a "doll", which is the post on a bracket or gantry.

I would be very careful about being told that this is the way the Western does it, as practices in different parts of the region could vary significantly.

I thought that was clear, but practices differed even within a small area. In Exeter we had ex-SR and WR men, plus one or two that had started on the LM, and after I left they got somebody from East Anglia; you could also get people moving about within a region. I started in Surrey, wandered down to Cornwall, before ending up in London.
 

BrummieBobby

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A while back I started a thread on railway slang: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/railway-slang.234193/

Certainly in my time signalling trains in the West Midlands, I have heard (and occasionally used) the word peg to refer to a signal. However, I have also heard and used the term "Dolly Board" to refer to a ground signal, alternatively I have worked with a colleague (Who again, has only ever worked in the West Midlands) who uses the term "Dummy Peg" when referring to ground signals.
 

M&NEJ

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The origin of the term 'peg' for signal lies in an old type of block instrument that required a peg to be inserted for certain operations to operate signals.
I first heard the term "peg" from a gentleman I used to know at Kirkby Stephen box; but I had always assumed the "peg" was the signal arm.

Does anyone know more about the use of a peg in a block instrument? Why it was used or what it would enable the signaller to do?
 
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Users on the Cumbrian Coast often refer to the Semaphore as being pegged when the train is due, must have been the only way of knowing at unstaffed stations if it was turning up before matrix boards etc!
 

John Webb

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I first heard the term "peg" from a gentleman I used to know at Kirkby Stephen box; but I had always assumed the "peg" was the signal arm.

Does anyone know more about the use of a peg in a block instrument? Why it was used or what it would enable the signaller to do?
Block instruments had originally just two indications, often shown as a small semaphore signal.
But as the Absolute Block system developed there were three indications required - a central 'neutral' position, often referred to as 'Line Blocked' or on later BR instruments it read 'Normal'.
The indicating needle could be deflected one way for 'Line Clear' and the other way for 'Train on Line' by rotating the operating handle.
Now block instruments were an adaption of the early electric telegraph in which a needle was deflected one way for a Morse Code 'Dot' and the other way for a 'Dash' and the operating handle needed no way of holding it in place.
But for Block Instrument use the indications needed to be held visible. Simplest way was to drill holes in the handle axle and its bearing through which a pin or peg could be placed to hold the indicator in the required position - hence 'Pegging-up'.
Later instruments had catches built into the mechanism or later still used proper three-position rotary switches.
 

Ashley Hill

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Does anyone know more about the use of a peg in a block instrument? Why it was used or what it would enable the signaller to do?
AIUI on some early block instruments the commutator handle was held in either the Line Clear or Train on Line position by a peg. When removed the handle dropped to the Line Blocked or Normal position. To Peg Up is the acceptance of a train by turning the commutator handle to Line Clear and holding it there by the peg. Pegging Out means removing the peg and releasing the commutator handle to Line Blocked or Normal after Train out of Section has been received. The peg itself was generally a pin or clip rather than something you hang your washing out with. Others may explain it better.
Edit, I see John has :)
 

M&NEJ

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Thank you, both. I've always been interested in railway signalling (ever since being allowed into Scout Green as a little boy). It's good to learn something new today!
 

Welshman

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Yes. Thank you indeed to you both, as I've learned something new too. :smile:

Just an interesting thought - the use of the term "dolly" seems to have extended to bus operations also.
A small, ground signal in railway parlance and a temporary, smaller bus-stop sign at the roadside - a dolly stop.
 

philthetube

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Although "feathers" were also often known as "lunar lights" on the Southern! And "the flash" around Birmingham.

My vote is for boards rather than pegs.
I think this comes form the colour of the bulbs, "Lunar white"

on the Metropolitan line we used to refer to signals as sticks, "sticks on" being a common phrase heard on driver change. Not many sticks on the met.
 

Wyrleybart

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As opposed to a "doll", which is the post on a bracket or gantry.

I would be very careful about being told that this is the way the Western does it, as practices in different parts of the region could vary significantly.
Very much so !!!
I started work on BR in 1978 which was former BR(WR) territory until 1963, I then moved to Bescot deepest LMR in 1980. To me signals were "pegs" and ground signals were "dummies". But I often heard reference to "dollies" and "boards" simply because the West Midlands was where many displace staff migrated to after the Beeching cuts. As mentioned upthread route indicators were "feathers" or "the flash", but these are all part of the rich tapestry of railway jargon - another of which is the route around Birmingham. I have worked for XC for the last 23 years and if we need to lose a unit or turn it, we send it "round the houses".
 

Belperpete

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While many block instruments are/were "combined" instruments, with both sending and receiving indications (for both up and down lines), some had separate instruments for sending and receiving. I think the GW tended to use mainly separate instruments, for example, whereas the LNWR used combined instruments (nicknamed tombstones) that also included the bell and tapper. The sending instruments (with the handle and indication) are generally referred to as pegging or pegger instruments, while the receiving instruments (with only an indication) are generally referred to as non-pegging or non-pegger instruments.

On some early types of block instrument, the indications were given by an indicator resembling a small semaphore signal. I think some of the Sykes lock & block instruments were like that.
 
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Railsigns

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On some early types of block instrument, the indications were given by an indicator resembling a small semaphore signal. I think some of the Sykes lock & block instruments were like that.
The surviving ex-Glasgow & South Western Railway block instruments on the line between Kilmarnock and Dumfries have those little semaphore arms.
 

John Webb

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While many block instruments are/were "combined" instruments, with both sending and receiving indications (for both up and down lines), some had separate instruments for sending and receiving. I think the GW tended to use mainly separate instruments, for example, whereas the LNWR used combined instruments (nicknamed tombstones) that also included the bell and tapper. The sending instruments (with the handle and indication) are generally referred to as pegging or pegger instruments, while the receiving instruments (with only an indication) are generally referred to as non-pegging or non-pegger instruments.
A sample of Block Instruments - Combined BR 1950s plastic and Midland Railway (MR) instruments from around 1915:
10 Mar 14, 06.JPG
The MR instruments are the 'non-pegger', the bell and tapper and the 'pegger' - in this case the MR's next stage from a pegger, their 'Rotary Block' instrument. This is notable in that the internal workings compel the signaller to use it in the correct sequence ('Line Blocked', 'Line Clear', 'Train on Line' and back to 'Line Blocked') and only to reset out of that sequence if need be by co-operation with the adjacent signaller or an S&T workman.

On some early types of block instrument, the indications were given by an indicator resembling a small semaphore signal. I think some of the Sykes lock & block instruments were like that.
I mentioned these in my post #17 above - quite widespread as many railway companies bought their signalling equipment from a relatively small number of outside contractors.
 

R Martin

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Somewhere or other, I can’t remember whether it was when I worked on the the Southern Region or the Western (more likely the latter, but some of my colleagues there were ex-SR), I came across signalmen who referred to giving a Line Clear as ‘pegging up’. I suspect that a lot of staff would acquire the phraseology used by the men who taught them or they first worked with and it remained with them for their career, to be passed on to those they taught.

Like @Big Jumby 74 I learnt most of my terms on the SR and always used Dummy, but others used Dolly. As I have written before, always beware that the slang that railway writers put forward is not always what the staff used: it may have been misheard, it may have been one individual’s preference, somebody may have been taking a rise out of the enthusiast, etc. But because the enthusiast’s writings are much more widely disseminated they become the ’accepted’ version. I am sure that many staff have, like me, been corrected by some little ******* as to their use of some term.
When I was on the WCML electrification in 1964/5 when I took "possession" the signalman at the old Semaphore Boxes always referred to the "peg" and the "Dummy"
 

50006Neptune

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Well I’ve certainly heard Western Ops and Engineering staff to Semaphore signals as Pegs
Thank you Elecman, me too, however since my photo publication on Facebook Class 50 Central, a gent replied claiming, 'peg' was a Midland term. On the Western we should refer to as 'Board'.
 
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