Signaller error Kings Cross Sunday 8th June 2025

[Spekejunction]

on Sunday 8th June 2025 my daughter was on the 10.30 from Huntingdon to Kings Cross (1P83)
As it approached Kings Cross on the Slow line it was realised that there was no suitable platform available for a Twelve Coach Train.
Driver had to reverse train and gain the Fast Line for arrival into suitable platform ( Platform 0 )
Delay of 33 minutes.
Driver was very professional and gained a round of applause from passengers..

Be interesting to know if this has happened elsewhere..

 

[LCC106]

How do you know this was signaller error? Was it announced on the train?

I’m not familiar with that area but believe this could be classed as being wrongly routed. If the driver accepted the wrong route then he or she would also be in the wrong.

Can anyone clarify platform capacities and access from fast or slows please?

 

[Spekejunction]

How do you know this was signaller error? Was it announced on the train?

I’m not familiar with that area but believe this could be classed as being wrongly routed. If the driver accepted the wrong route then he or she would also be in the wrong.

Can anyone clarify platform capacities and access from fast or slows please?

The driver announced it as such….

 

[Tilting007]

Depending on scenario could certainly be a wrong route or an issue with the ARS (if used at Kings X).

 

[dk1]

These things do happen. Obviously safety is never compromised it’s just a little inconvenient.

 

[zwk500]

How do you know this was signaller error? Was it announced on the train?

I’m not familiar with that area but believe this could be classed as being wrongly routed. If the driver accepted the wrong route then he or she would also be in the wrong.

Can anyone clarify platform capacities and access from fast or slows please?

Once on the Slow lines at Holloway South Junction, you can access Platforms 7 and 8 which are 12 Cars Long and 9 and 11 which aren't. Even if you go all the way over to the SL2/Up Slow, you can still access Platform 8. The driver would not have known if platform 7/8 were occupied until the Signaller phoned up (or the signal cleared to a Permissive Aspect only).

Platform lengths: https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=KGX
Signalling: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1

 

[Horizon22]

How do you know this was signaller error? Was it announced on the train?

I’m not familiar with that area but believe this could be classed as being wrongly routed. If the driver accepted the wrong route then he or she would also be in the wrong.

It's hard for the driver to necessarily know because they might have been routed towards platforms that could accept a 12-car usually but for whatever reason they were either occupied for much later departures or blocked for a reason such as engineering works. Now the driver should I suppose know what platforms were blocked by checking the WON (Weekly Operating Notice) even if it is a permissible route, so it's more of a grey area.

Also if there had been some sort of unit swap, then a train formed of a 12-car might have originally been an 8-car. Or ARS has pre-planned something but after disruption the booked platform isn't available. So it is more complex than it seems as to who is to "blame". More of a learning opportunity and a comms issue really between various parties. A proactive station controller might have been able to spot it, but even that doesn't always appear obvious immediately.

Platforms 7/8 are ~290m and could take a 12-car from the Up Slow. These were presumably blocked by either of the reasons I listed above (later departures / engineering).

 

[Vexed]

How do you know this was signaller error? Was it announced on the train?

Depending on scenario could certainly be a wrong route or an issue with the ARS (if used at Kings X).

ARS is in use at Kings Cross since the move to York ROC iirc. I would lean it being an ARS error / standoff (Automatic Route Setting).

1P83 was booked into platform 8 which was occupied by 1A18 (arrived on the wrong platform at 10:55) forming 1N16 (dep 12:21).

So when 1P83 was routed to signal 2068 as booked it could only access platforms 7-10 if moving forwards, all of which were occupied and as zwk500 points out above only 7 and 8 were usable.

Now luckily this area is the only covered by my signalling rewind, so you can see the issue playback. When 1P83 starts reversing it disappears completely, this is expected for unsignalled manoeuvre.

Maps - Vail Data

vaildata.uk

or the signal cleared to a Permissive Aspect only

There was still another signal before the platform, so either ARS or the signalled stopped it one short. You can see what routes were set on the link above.

 

[Horizon22]

Now luckily this area is the only covered by my signalling rewind, so you can see the issue playback. When 1P83 starts reversing it disappears completely, this is expected for unsignalled manoeuvre.

Maps - Vail Data

vaildata.uk

Nice replay system!

I do wonder at which point the driver/signaller noticed the issue (and who noticed it first!) I imagine the signaller who could see there was nowhere for the train to berth with a quick lineup check showing nothing was due to depart imminently either.

1P83 arrives in the area at 1113.
Platform 7 (1S95) is due out at 1213
Platform 8 (1N16) is due out at 1222

RTT shows there had been quite a few platform changes all day. Always a risk that something like this can happen, especially at terminals with platform restrictions and being "routed beyond the point of no return".

 

[CarltonA]

Be interesting to know if this has happened elsewhere..

A couple of weeks ago an eight car train was routed into plat 2 (4 car bay) at Reading having worked from Newbury. The driver contacted the signaller from Reading West and we were rerouted to a longer platform. The mistake was understandable due to two trains having been joined at Newbury due to an earlier cancellation.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Nice replay system!

I do wonder at which point the driver/signaller noticed the issue (and who noticed it first!) I imagine the signaller who could see there was nowhere for the train to berth

Would the signaller have any indication on the line diagram that the train was 12 cars?
The drivers route knowledge should be good enough to know the train wouldn't fit#, but only once he saw which platform the route was set for - if that is at the final yellow light before the platform he might not be able to stop before passing it.
(# assuming he remembered how long it was - some practices such as the abolition of sto boards for short formations, and the "ceremony of the doors" suggest drivers are no longer trusted to remember what's behind them)
Either way, what would have happened next had the train arrived in platform 9 or 10 with its tail blocking the throat?

 

[MCR247]

One for this thread?

(link is to a current thread titled ‘Are some trains too long?’)

Out of curiosity, was the train a Class 700 or do GN run 12 car electrostars on the weekend?

 

[800001]

This happens frequently at Kings Cross since SARS signalling took over when it moved to York ROC.

The common occurrence is routing a train towards platform 0 on line A, that means train in platform can’t depart, and arriving train has to then set back.

 

[43066]

This happens frequently at Kings Cross since SARS signalling took over when it moved to York ROC.

The common occurrence is routing a train towards platform 0 on line A, that means train in platform can’t depart, and arriving train has to then set back.

That’s progress for you! The industry jokes around signalling becoming a spectator sport in ARS boxes aren’t without some basis in fact.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Another ‘ARS Benefit’?

 

[Horizon22]

Another ‘ARS Benefit’?

It has a lot of benefits - most of these obviously are not worthy of discussion. Classic negativity bias with threads like these even if the excuse of "well it was ARS" is a pretty frustrating/poor one.

 

[Robski]

Out of curiosity, was the train a Class 700 or do GN run 12 car electrostars on the weekend?

Class 700/1.

 

[357]

How do you know this was signaller error? Was it announced on the train?

I’m not familiar with that area but believe this could be classed as being wrongly routed. If the driver accepted the wrong route then he or she would also be in the wrong.

Can anyone clarify platform capacities and access from fast or slows please?

Don't work for the TOC involved but do sign Kings Cross. It won't be a driver accepting a wrong route.

I always ring up the box at Kings Cross and check what I'm being put on top of when given a position light, as there is no protection against exceeding platform length like there is at other locations with Lime Street Controls.

 

[transportphoto]

Lime Street Controls

Excuse my ignorance - Lime Street Controls?

 

[Steve Harris]

Another ‘ARS Benefit’?

Indeed !

Peterborough is another place ARS seems to come unstuck on a regular basis.

 

[jfollows]

Excuse my ignorance - Lime Street Controls?

Poor platform allocating at Liverpool Lime Street

Tunnel controls? Does that mean there are limits on the number of trains allowed in the tunnelled sections up to Edge Hill? No, "Lime Street Controls", for example from https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:glossary:lime_street_control: Lime Street Control Where a train is to be...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[357]

Excuse my ignorance - Lime Street Controls?

Multiple track circuits within the same signalling block on approach to the junction before the station measure the train against the same number of track circuits in the platform. The position light on the signal can only be cleared if the train will fit in the platform.

 

[MCR247]

Class 700/1.

Thanks

 

[Deepgreen]

On a slight tangent - are 12 coach trains now normal from Huntingdon on Sundays? I thought the bay there was only able to accommodate eight, so do 12s reverse across the main line?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2025 ==

Don't work for the TOC involved but do sign Kings Cross. It won't be a driver accepting a wrong route.

I always ring up the box at Kings Cross and check what I'm being put on top of when given a position light, as there is no protection against exceeding platform length like there is at other locations with Lime Street Controls.

Are you saying it is impossible for a driver to accept a wrong route at/near King's Cross, then?

 

[MCR247]

On a slight tangent - are 12 coach trains now normal from Huntingdon on Sundays? I thought the bay there was only able to accommodate eight, so do 12s reverse across the main line?

Don’t all (or nearly all) of the trains run through to/from Peterborough in normal service?

 

[Horizon22]

Are you saying it is impossible for a driver to accept a wrong route at/near King's Cross, then?

It seems unlikely unless they were signalled into a platform they knew to be too short for their train (e.g. 9 and 10) and accepted it. Not impossible.

 

[Steve Harris]

On a slight tangent - are 12 coach trains now normal from Huntingdon on Sundays? I thought the bay there was only able to accommodate eight, so do 12s reverse across the main line?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2025 ==

The bay at Huntingdon has been out of use since the 365's got scrapped.

All Great Northern/Thameslink trains are scheduled to start/terminate at Peterborough and have been since the 365's withdrawal (and even before that, it was only 1 service a day which started at Huntingdon).

Sundays tend to be 8 or 12 car 700's although 8 car 387's have turned up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2025 ==

It seems unlikely unless they were signalled into a platform they knew to be too short for their train (e.g. 9 and 10) and accepted it.

Exactly this ^

 

[357]

Are you saying it is impossible for a driver to accept a wrong route at/near King's Cross, then?

I'm saying that in the situation described it won't have been a wrong route as it is still possible to be signalled into a platform that can accommodate the train.

The train could have been headed into platform 7 or 8, that are full length platforms.

Therefore, this situation won't have been due to a driver accepting a wrong route.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm saying that in the situation described it won't have been a wrong route as it is still possible to be signalled into a platform that can accommodate the train.

The train could have been headed into platform 7 or 8, that are full length platforms.

Therefore, this situation won't have been due to a driver accepting a wrong route.

So, given that the train was approaching on the slow lines (according to the OP), if the train was signalled into p9, 10 or 11 (eight car platforms) and the driver accepted that...?

 

[Horizon22]

So, given that the train was approaching on the slow lines (according to the OP), if the train was signalled into p9, 10 or 11 (eight car platforms) and the driver accepted that...?

Then that would be. But this wasn't what happened.