Are some trains too long?

[357]

ASDO weighs take care of the short platform thing, and the really short platforms I think are all at the stations that only get a parliamentary service anyway, so hardly a big deal.

Not if the train is stopped over points or past signals.

 

[The exile]

Not if the train is stopped over points or past signals.

Or if an entire unit can’t be platformed.

 

[dk1]

Not if the train is stopped over points or past signals.

Also the class 755s as new are not allowed to stop over level and foot crossings which would be the case with longer trains. EMR 158s and 170s can as they have grandfather rights.

 

[Route115?]

Its an interesting question whether Thameslink should have got some 6 coach units so that you could run shorter trains off peak. However this would require shunting at stations and whilst this is very straightforward where there are sidings at stations where this would take place its can be problematic if longer trips to the depot are required. Staff shortages don't help. On an historical note, London Transport suspended uncoupling on the Metropolitan Line in the 60s owing to staff shortage, although it was re-introduced later.

In many cases longer trains are required for part of the journey (compare the loadings of underground trains in zone 1 and at the endsof some lines) - though this is probably not the case with the Stansted Express at quiet times. You could possibly send the 12 car Flirts to the depot a peak times and run 5 car 720s halving mileage but the 720s are really designed for luggage and you would need additional traincrew. Also, a train may be full in one direction and very lightly loaded in the other.

 

[dk1]

Its an interesting question whether Thameslink should have got some 6 coach units so that you could run shorter trains off peak. However this would require shunting at stations and whilst this is very straightforward where there are sidings at stations where this would take place its can be problematic if longer trips to the depot are required. Staff shortages don't help. On an historical note, London Transport suspended uncoupling on the Metropolitan Line in the 60s owing to staff shortage, although it was re-introduced later.

In many cases longer trains are required for part of the journey (compare the loadings of underground trains in zone 1 and at the endsof some lines) - though this is probably not the case with the Stansted Express at quiet times. You could possibly send the 10 car Flirts to the depot a peak times and run 5 car 720s halving mileage but the 720s are really designed for luggage and you would need additional traincrew.

The Flirts are 12-cars.

the Stansted Express can be busy at anytime.

 

[saismee]

In many cases longer trains are required for part of the journey (compare the loadings of underground trains in zone 1 and at the endsof some lines) - though this is probably not the case with the Stansted Express at quiet times. You could possibly send the 10 car Flirts to the depot a peak times and run 5 car 720s halving mileage but the 720s are really designed for luggage and you would need additional traincrew.

Stansted Express is already served by some 5+5 720s, and I don't think they have any train crew other than a driver.

 

[dk1]

Stansted Express is already served by some 5+5 720s, and I don't think they have any train crew other than a driver.

I think the additional traincrew would have been for all the unnecessary shunting of 745s to sidings then getting them out again as well as all the detatching and attaching 720s which would also become a performance risk.

 

[Peter Wilde]

I believe these people come from somewhere called Facebook . One of the most depressing things about 2020 was the revelation of just how stupid so many people are!

Actually not depressing at all. It helped me to realise and enjoy the fact that given all the FB comments, and the amusing remarks quoted up-thread, I must be only just a little bit stupid!

 

[PP57601]

Many years ago when the Class 458’s were new to South West Trains, they would operate them off-peak as 4-car and then strengthen to 8’s during both peaks. This soon became more hassle than it was worth, especially with the over-complicated ‘new design of coupling and connections etc’ (if I remember correctly) and then soon started running around all day as 8-car formations.

Over the years, and with extra off-peak demand on inner/outer London services, the capacity is still needed off-peak to warrant 8-car sets.

 

[Peter Wilde]

yes, at some times of day trains are too long.

What do you want to do, abandon a few coaches on the way?
Or shorten them for the whole day, so that they are also overcrowded at times.

It happens.
Last train I was on, early morning Cardiff to Plymouth. Full all the way from Newport to Bristol. An entire carriage all to myself from Bristol to Weston-super-Mare

Maybe so. But we need to be more creative:

Use telescopic coaches made of rubber, and automatically software-adjusted so the train is always just comfortably well patronised? (Software-adjusted. What could possibly go wrong?)

Or just lock the doors on half the train and replace all the air within with hydrogen, to reduce weight and rolling resistance? (Come on, that has got to be the most sensible suggestion for using hydrogen on a train, surely?)

 

[Trainbike46]

Considering that overcrowding and lack of capacity is a huge problem across much of the railway network, I think the question of a train being too long with many free seats is actually a good reflection of the new rolling stock. Of course being articulated Stadler stock in this instance I am lead to wonder whether or not these twelve coaches would still be that length on non-articulated stock such as the 387 or if it would be shorter such as eight or ten coaches.

The 745s are 237m long, so approximately the same length as 12x standard length carriages, including class 387, or 10x class 720.

I skim-read to make sure I wasn't repeating anyone but I must have missed yours! Completely agree about the returns being negligible to none.


And the FLIRTs used on StEX have a great deal of space taken by the electronics due to the low-floor design. Running these in multiple would be very detrimental to capacity (755 triple traction, for example).

A 745/1 (StanEx unit) has 722 seats
A 700/1 (12-car unit) has 666 seats
A 3x387 has 3x223 = 669 seats*

The class 700 does have impressive standing capacity, but it is hard to argue that the 745 is a low-capacity design!

AIUI, the StanEx needs this capacity most of the time, and I would object to any suggestion trains are routinely too long without good reason.

Of course, 3x755 (triple traction) is lower capacity as there are 4 redundant cabs, 3x redundant powerpacks, and at most 11 cars (vs 12 on a 745)

*from this post https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-each-other-and-from-377s.238604/post-5898709

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2025 ==

Some conductors get very hot under the collar about blocking our access doors. Large cases will fit in the overhead racks. The Stadler fleet are excellent for that.

As they should, emergency doors should never be blocked!

 

[Deepgreen]

The shocking and inescapable truth is that some trains are too long, some are too short and some are about right... One huge change since my younger days is the abandonment of off-peak shortening by sending, say, one unit of a two unit train back to the depot for the off-peak period. On the Waterloo suburban network, trains were eight cars in the peak and four in the off-peak. Of course, off-peak travel has burgeoned since then, but there are still many workings that are lightly-loaded in the off-peak.

 

[AM9]

The shocking and inescapable truth is that some trains are too long, some are too short and some are about right... One huge change since my younger days is the abandonment of off-peak shortening by sending, say, one unit of a two unit train back to the depot for the off-peak period. On the Waterloo suburban network, trains were eight cars in the peak and four in the off-peak. Of course, off-peak travel has burgeoned since then, but there are still many workings that are lightly-loaded in the off-peak.

Hardly "shocking"! Standard lengths of trains throughout the timetable have been the feature for as long as I can remember on the GEML, - a line amongst those with the highest peak capacity demand. Of the inner and outer suburban services in the '60s and '70s, there were the 3x3-car class 306s, the 2x4-car 305s, 307s and 308s, and the express 2x4-car + 1x2-car class 309s. The extra peak services were the 3x4-car fasts to Southend and a couple of 2x4-car + 2x2-car 309s*. Most of the peak extras spent the hours between the peaks in Ilford depot or stashed in Channelsea Curve's sidings. That was the impact of the wild variation between peak and off-peak. I believe when off-peak demand fell in the '80s and early '90s, shorter formations were run off peak, but as others here have said the economy of that practice was not necessarily positive taking all issue into consideration. Hence the predominance of fixed formations now the railway has much more leisure travel to provide for.
* This was the configuration of the 17:40 form Liverpool St to Clacton, - it may have been that configuration to provide additional performance (3366KW/4512HP) on what was probably the most critical path of the evening peak.

 

[Hadders]

Its an interesting question whether Thameslink should have got some 6 coach units so that you could run shorter trains off peak. However this would require shunting at stations and whilst this is very straightforward where there are sidings at stations where this would take place its can be problematic if longer trips to the depot are required. Staff shortages don't help. On an historical note, London Transport suspended uncoupling on the Metropolitan Line in the 60s owing to staff shortage, although it was re-introduced later.

In many cases longer trains are required for part of the journey (compare the loadings of underground trains in zone 1 and at the endsof some lines) - though this is probably not the case with the Stansted Express at quiet times. You could possibly send the 12 car Flirts to the depot a peak times and run 5 car 720s halving mileage but the 720s are really designed for luggage and you would need additional traincrew. Also, a train may be full in one direction and very lightly loaded in the other.

One redeeming feature of the class 700s is the fixed length, 12-car or 8-car.

It does at least mean they can’t be shortened, you only have to look at the 4-car units that operated on Sundays pre-class 700 arrival to understand overcrowding that was a weekly feature of Great Northern.

 

[saismee]

It does at least mean they can’t be shortened, you only have to look at the 4-car units that operated on Sundays pre-class 700 arrival to understand overcrowding that was a weekly feature of Great Northern.

And some of those 4-car short formations are happening again with the (highly) questionable 379 introduction. Certainly a case of trains being too short rather than too long.

 

[AM9]

And some of those 4-car short formations are happening again with the (highly) questionable 379 introduction. Certainly a case of trains being too short rather than too long.

They aren't Thameslink trains, only class 700s run where 319s used to.

 

[wimbledonpete]

Coupling and uncoupling can be quite complex and can add delay - the 09.41 from Ashford to St Pancras, which I take to work, is formed from 12 cars that come down empty from St Pancras. They arrive at 09.26. The front 6 are taken off and move out to the depot then another 6 come in from the Canterbury line and couple up. No criticism of the process itself, as it generally works efficiently, but there have been a number of occasions where either the ECS or the Canterbury portion is late, or the coupling doesn't work and there has to be the old "turn it off and on again" routine. Only remember one occasion, though, where it didn't work at all and we all had to get off for the next one. All in all I guess it's a clever use of stock and if you like splittings and joinings, Ashford is a hotspot!

 

[PeterC]

Maybe so. But we need to be more creative:

Use telescopic coaches made of rubber, and automatically software-adjusted so the train is always just comfortably well patronised? (Software-adjusted. What could possibly go wrong?)

Or just lock the doors on half the train and replace all the air within with hydrogen, to reduce weight and rolling resistance? (Come on, that has got to be the most sensible suggestion for using hydrogen on a train, surely?)

It's easier than that. Just take some coaches off the back and put them on the front. No different to making the days "longer" in the summer.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are some trains too long? Maybe some platforms are too short?!

 

[WestAnglian]

Stansted Express is already served by some 5+5 720s, and I don't think they have any train crew other than a driver.

Isn't that just to cover temporary shortages of 745s?

 

[saismee]

Isn't that just to cover temporary shortages of 745s?

Yes, I was commenting on the bolded part of the quote.

 

[Trainbike46]

Coupling and uncoupling can be quite complex and can add delay - the 09.41 from Ashford to St Pancras, which I take to work, is formed from 12 cars that come down empty from St Pancras. They arrive at 09.26. The front 6 are taken off and move out to the depot then another 6 come in from the Canterbury line and couple up. No criticism of the process itself, as it generally works efficiently, but there have been a number of occasions where either the ECS or the Canterbury portion is late, or the coupling doesn't work and there has to be the old "turn it off and on again" routine. Only remember one occasion, though, where it didn't work at all and we all had to get off for the next one. All in all I guess it's a clever use of stock and if you like splittings and joinings, Ashford is a hotspot!

I have so many questions, starting with, why is there an ECS move from St P to Ashford arriving at 9:26????

Maybe some platforms are too short?!

Definitely!!

 

[dk1]

I have so many questions, starting with, why is there an ECS move from St P to Ashford arriving at 9:26????

Would that just be an after the peak move?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Isn't that just to cover temporary shortages of 745s?

I'd question the word temporary, but the 720s are to cover for the shortage of 745

 

[wimbledonpete]

Would that just be an after the peak move?

Yes, the 06.55 from Broadstairs.

 

[dk1]

Yes, the 06.55 from Broadstairs.

Thanks, thought it sounded about right.

 

[Magdalia]

I'd question the word temporary, but the 720s are to cover for the shortage of 745

Temporary shortages of class 745s are definitely a thing. A common reason is units being out of traffic waiting repairs after being damaged hitting fallen trees.

And some of those 4-car short formations are happening again with the (highly) questionable 379 introduction. Certainly a case of trains being too short rather than too long.

Class 379s aren't shorter than class 387s but they do have fewer seats, because of the provision of luggage space. There is a reduction in capacity even when the trains are correctly formed.

 

[dk1]

I think it’s accepted internally now that enough 745s were not ordered and thus the use of 720s on Stansted diagrams and 755s (triple traction) on the Norwich route will be a permanent thing.

 

[trebor79]

A pity Therese no chance of a second batch being built.

 

[saismee]

Class 379s aren't shorter than class 387s but they do have fewer seats, because of the provision of luggage space. There is a reduction in capacity even when the trains are correctly formed.

I primarily mean when theres a train fault, which seems to be more common with the introduction of the 379s. At least the "new" seats are comfier than the 387s.