Signalling Information Help

[Step3 Star]

When Road Learning sometimes the up to date Signalling indications are hard to find with regards to stations, junctions etc. The company issued Road Learning maps are good but mostly the signalling information is missing.

Does anyone know if Network Rail would release this information if you were to contact them using your company email address?? If so who would you contact at Network Rail??

 

[Boodiggy]

When Road Learning sometimes the up to date Signalling indications are hard to find with regards to stations, junctions etc. The company issued Road Learning maps are good but mostly the signalling information is missing.

Does anyone know if Network Rail would release this information if you were to contact them using your company email address?? If so who would you contact at Network Rail??

Hi, depends what level of map you require. A lot of the NR ones will be far to detailed for a driver to route learn as it will include all of the detailed plans on TC / Axle counter sections and details on interlocking etc. That said, most routes usually have a more basic style map used for planning. To get them I would suggest just asking your DTM. There will be loads of ways as there will be plenty of performance, control and other interface meetings so just need someone to ask.

 

[Lucy1501]

Depending what are you are in:

• The signalling records society has a fair few plans on their website. You need to be a member to access some.
• There are many YouTube videos with cab rides that display signalling information.
• Scot-rail.co.uk has some Scottish signalling plans http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Railway+Infrastructure#Sigdiags
• If you’re in an area signalled by mechanical boxes you can try looking for the signal box diagrams (photos.signalling.org and Flickr are good for this).

All of the above are likely to be somewhat out of date and only used as a rough guide however, and should not be wholly relied on as gospel.

As Boodiggy says, it’s best to ask your DTM or other drivers. They may have an official route learning video or knowledge that you can add detail to your issued maps with.

 

[ComUtoR]

We have a similar issue. It's not the diagrams that are the problem. We don't have the information regarding where each junction indicator send you.

Eg. VS178 shows Position 1 for the up Chatham main and Position 4 for the up Ravensbourne Chord. No main aspect or Single yellow + J1 possible.

That information has been passed down generation to generation. I've never seen it written anywhere or known where I could source it. Surely NR has it somewhere ?

 

[RightAwayGuy]

We have a similar issue. It's not the diagrams that are the problem. We don't have the information regarding where each junction indicator send you.

Eg. VS178 shows Position 1 for the up Chatham main and Position 4 for the up Ravensbourne Chord. No main aspect or Single yellow + J1 possible.

That information has been passed down generation to generation. I've never seen it written anywhere or known where I could source it. Surely NR has it somewhere ?

All route indications can be found in yellow perils, but that involves a lot of work collating the data. Some companies do have route indications on their maps.

 

[Efini92]

As @RightAwayGuy says, you need the yellow perils. You might be able to get them by emailing NR, there’s an email address in the notices.
I did it a few years ago and they were really helpful.

 

[zwk500]

We have a similar issue. It's not the diagrams that are the problem. We don't have the information regarding where each junction indicator send you.

Eg. VS178 shows Position 1 for the up Chatham main and Position 4 for the up Ravensbourne Chord. No main aspect or Single yellow + J1 possible.

That information has been passed down generation to generation. I've never seen it written anywhere or known where I could source it. Surely NR has it somewhere ?

Route boxes (entry sig, exit sig, Route Letter and class, Indication and routing when needed) are included in the Signalling Diagrams held on the National Records Group by NR, and are repeated in Signal Box Route cards. Getting hold of a summary may well be impossible, but the records do definitely include it.

The NR records controller would probably be the best place to start - you may need somebody with NR's internal address book to be able to locate an actual person to get hold of. Once you're in, they're helpful. If it's a specific area then NR LOMs may also be worth a try.

 

[mr_moo]

Have a look in the WON/PON - there should be an email address in there for the planning publications team. Email them and they should be abl to direct you to the owners of the signalling info.

 

[Step3 Star]

Thank you all for your replies.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks.

 

[Annetts key]

There are various official diagrams, depending on the age/design of the signalling system and who the intended user is.
So there are various technical diagrams intended for signal engineering staff.
Diagrams and routes setting tables for use by signallers, some of which may also be suitable for train drivers.
Scheme diagrams - a mix showing some technical information as well as that shown on the diagrams intended for signallers/drivers.
The yellow peril diagrams are normally redrawn extracts of these.

Old yellow perils tend to be difficult to get hold of.

 

[TSG]

When Road Learning sometimes the up to date Signalling indications are hard to find with regards to stations, junctions etc. The company issued Road Learning maps are good but mostly the signalling information is missing.

Does anyone know if Network Rail would release this information if you were to contact them using your company email address?? If so who would you contact at Network Rail??

From the 'Route knowledge requirements' table in appendix C of RIS-3702-TOM 'Management of Route Knowledge' (with further supporting information in the T1108 report)

NR definitely have this information and I am certain they do not keep it a secret from your TOC/FOC. With all due respect to your individual efforts, if what your company is issuing is inaccurate or incomplete they are not following the guidance in the RIS. You should escalate that to your management IMHO.

The yellow peril diagrams are normally redrawn extracts of these.

Old yellow perils tend to be difficult to get hold of.

We have been told that we are not allowed to call them that in this day and age. They are a 'yellow notice' (don't shoot the messenger...)

 

[Step3 Star]

I did email the planning publications team at NR but have so far not received a reply (apart from an automated one).

The RL maps we're given are good except for limited information regarding what the signalling displays for what routes at junctions, GPL's etc. When it's been raised with managers at safety briefs etc they tend to agree but that's as far as it gets.

It's a shame that NR can't extend their NESA site to include something like where you could enter a signal number and it gives you all the relevant information regarding that signal.

 

[zwk500]

It's a shame that NR can't extend their NESA site to include something like where you could enter a signal number and it gives you all the relevant information regarding that signal.

NESA generally doesn't have signals. The records you are after are held separately by NR's records controller, and most of them are just scans of the physical sheets.
The NESA site should be more flexible and the fact it still deals with things as though they're pages of the paper version was maddening when I worked for NR, even if there are good reasons for it.

 

[Annetts key]

… still deals with things as though they're pages of the paper version was maddening when I worked for NR, even if there are good reasons for it.

Same for the technical documentation. Mostly only available in awkward PDF format. Some diagrams are in the wrong orientation as well

The RL maps we're given are good except for limited information regarding what the signalling displays for what routes at junctions, GPL's etc. When it's been raised with managers at safety briefs etc they tend to agree but that's as far as it gets.

I can show you some typical general details, but not any specifics. But I don’t think that’s what you are after.

It sounds like the company you work for are not very proactive. Maybe put a formal written request in.

So here is an example of an extract of a signalling plan. It’s an area that has since been resignalled (and hence is completely out of date), but it serves to show you the level of information that I think drivers should be provided with.

 

[zwk500]

Same for the technical documentation. Mostly only available in awkward PDF format. Some diagrams are in the wrong orientation as well

Don't get me started on the lack of vectored PDFs...

It sounds like the company you work for are not very proactive. Maybe put a formal written request in.

I think the issue is because the information the OP is really seeking is distributed across so many records there would be a significant cost for the time required to process the request. The Route Boxes (for others: the table in the image attached to post #15) appear to be what the OP is after, but AFAIK there is no requirement for Route boxes to be recorded on a summary sheet, this only being done if it is a very complex area and there is not space on the Signalling Plan to put the route box. Which means that the OP would need somebody to crop out the route boxes from multiple individual signalling plans and collate them to pass on - a laborious process indeed. Signalling plans typically only cover a limited area, typically a major station and the plain line immediately beyond to the next complex location, so for route knowledge this could easily mean several dozen plans.
SSiFT won't help either because IIRC that only stores information about signals not routes (although it may still be of interest for route learning) and Route Cards are probably too detailed for what the OP's after (every single point position and track circuit sequence for the signal to clear).
I don't doubt that there is a record of all routes available in an Interlocking somewhere on the S&T's files, but it's a totally different question about whether or not it is accessible or distributable.

 

[class 9]

When Road Learning sometimes the up to date Signalling indications are hard to find with regards to stations, junctions etc. The company issued Road Learning maps are good but mostly the signalling information is missing.

Does anyone know if Network Rail would release this information if you were to contact them using your company email address?? If so who would you contact at Network Rail??

Your company should issue you with a route learning pack which should contain all the info required, if they don't provide this, then don't sign the route.

 

[Step3 Star]

Same for the technical documentation. Mostly only available in awkward PDF format. Some diagrams are in the wrong orientation as well



I can show you some typical general details, but not any specifics. But I don’t think that’s what you are after.

It sounds like the company you work for are not very proactive. Maybe put a formal written request in.

So here is an example of an extract of a signalling plan. It’s an area that has since been resignalled (and hence is completely out of date), but it serves to show you the level of information that I think drivers should be provided with.
View attachment 130059

Yes this is exactly the type of thing that is needed.

When RL you can go from A to B & mostly get the same signalling sequences so can learn the route ok. The problem is when something goes wrong & you're required to do an unusual move or shunt especially in complex areas. Most of the time the information like shown above for all signals is very hard to find when really it should be readily available to people that need it.

 

[LAX54]

Yes this is exactly the type of thing that is needed.

When RL you can go from A to B & mostly get the same signalling sequences so can learn the route ok. The problem is when something goes wrong & you're required to do an unusual move or shunt especially in complex areas. Most of the time the information like shown above for all signals is very hard to find when really it should be readily available to people that need it.

At our location (Colchester) when there was an unusual move, or shunt move the drivers were not 100% sure of, they called the Signaller on the GSM-R and asked for help, and were talked through it, soemtimes staying 'on the line' whilst the move was carried out.

 

[apinnard]

At our location (Colchester) when there was an unusual move, or shunt move the drivers were not 100% sure of, they called the Signaller on the GSM-R and asked for help, and were talked through it, soemtimes staying 'on the line' whilst the move was carried out.

Was down main (passenger train) into platform 1 via the down goods one of those?

 

[LAX54]

Was down main (passenger train) into platform 1 via the down goods one of those?

Yes more than one Driver has stopped at the 'old' CO1 ans said, " Don't sign that route", once explained. OK you maybe at a stand for a good while, they say, "well if you tell me what signals I will get.... "

 

[Step3 Star]

At our location (Colchester) when there was an unusual move, or shunt move the drivers were not 100% sure of, they called the Signaller on the GSM-R and asked for help, and were talked through it, soemtimes staying 'on the line' whilst the move was carried out.

I know some TOCs don't allow the use of the GSM-R whilst on the move (except in emergency situations).

Really you would think that a TOC/FOC that pays NR to travel over their track that NR would supply the TOC/FOC with all the information for the part of the network that they'd be travelling over? Obviously the SA is a part of this but nothing for the signalling information??

 

[LAX54]

I know some TOCs don't allow the use of the GSM-R whilst on the move (except in emergency situations).

Really you would think that a TOC/FOC that pays NR to travel over their track that NR would supply the TOC/FOC with all the information for the part of the network that they'd be travelling over? Obviously the SA is a part of this but nothing for the signalling information??

In 'Anglia Railways' days, most, if not all drivers, knew most variations of routes, the UDGL Colchester, loop at Stowmarket, even the receptions at Ipswich, but as each franchise changed, they seemed to get less and less, but I am sure an Anglia Driver will confirm one way of the other One thing I enjoyed doing, when we had an enthusiasts special, I'd route the train all over the place, loops, the yard ! (spoke to Control first to see if they were happy with the idea)

 

[TSG]

Really you would think that a TOC/FOC that pays NR to travel over their track that NR would supply the TOC/FOC with all the information for the part of the network that they'd be travelling over? Obviously the SA is a part of this but nothing for the signalling information??

Really you would think that if the TOC/FOC received a bright yellow notice telling them about upcoming changes to signalling (with all relevant details including signal indications shown, destination and speeds for each route, and a helpful diagram too), somebody in the TOC/FOC might think to update the route learning materials with it (perhaps someone with formal accountability for this in their job description). The work doesn't get commissioned unless that's been published and I'm pretty sure the TOC/FOCs have to acknowledge receipt.

Really you would think that if a TOC/FOC had a query about a route they would ask NR. This information is readily available from the signalling plan and there is no reason to keep it a secret from the TOC/FOCs, quite the opposite. I'm fairly sure there is a legal duty to cooperate.

Really you would think that if a driver does not understand the signals they are looking at, because of inadequate route learning material, they would raise this with their employer, then if nothing happens escalate it to CIRAS, ASLEF, ORR etc as necessary.

But life is full of surprises eh?

 

[Step3 Star]

Really you would think that if the TOC/FOC received a bright yellow notice telling them about upcoming changes to signalling (with all relevant details including signal indications shown, destination and speeds for each route, and a helpful diagram too), somebody in the TOC/FOC might think to update the route learning materials with it (perhaps someone with formal accountability for this in their job description). The work doesn't get commissioned unless that's been published and I'm pretty sure the TOC/FOCs have to acknowledge receipt.

Really you would think that if a TOC/FOC had a query about a route they would ask NR. This information is readily available from the signalling plan and there is no reason to keep it a secret from the TOC/FOCs, quite the opposite. I'm fairly sure there is a legal duty to cooperate.

Really you would think that if a driver does not understand the signals they are looking at, because of inadequate route learning material, they would raise this with their employer, then if nothing happens escalate it to CIRAS, ASLEF, ORR etc as necessary.

But life is full of surprises eh?

Maybe but my point is that it's not readily available like the information in the SA when in my opinion it should be......

I've emailed NR (from my company email) asking for information regarding a part of a route but never got a reply........legal duty to cooperate... Really ???

 

[TSG]

Maybe but my point is that it's not readily available like the information in the SA when in my opinion it should be......

I've emailed NR (from my company email) asking for information regarding a part of a route but never got a reply........legal duty to cooperate... Really ???

It should be readily available in route learning materials produced by your TOC/FOC. Remember that something like hazards from mis-routing depends on your specific service and stock, its not generic.

It is the TOC/FOCs responsibility to give drivers correct and comprehensive route learning materials in an appropriate format. NR gives the TOC/FOCs all they need to do that. The reason they will not email out signalling plans or whatever else to anyone that asks is that
a) its a controlled document i.e. whilst not secret they need to know who should be updated when it changes so there is a single source of truth. There will be a list of duty holders in the TOC/FOCs for example.
b) NR are not in the business of assessing whether the information they are sending is appropriate for the purpose of route learning. That is the job of people employed by the TOC/FOCs to produce that. NR have a duty to cooperate with them, and they discharge that by publishing changes to them (not to mention consulting the TOC/FOCs extensively when designing the changes in the first place; it doesn't come out of the blue) . I am certain that they will have access to controlled copies of the signalling plans should they need them too.

This is down to the people producing the route learning material, because NR have no reason to keep secrets from them, quite the opposite.

 

[Step3 Star]

It should be readily available in route learning materials produced by your TOC/FOC. Remember that something like hazards from mis-routing depends on your specific service and stock, its not generic.

It is the TOC/FOCs responsibility to give drivers correct and comprehensive route learning materials in an appropriate format. NR gives the TOC/FOCs all they need to do that. The reason they will not email out signalling plans or whatever else to anyone that asks is that
a) its a controlled document i.e. whilst not secret they need to know who should be updated when it changes so there is a single source of truth. There will be a list of duty holders in the TOC/FOCs for example.
b) NR are not in the business of assessing whether the information they are sending is appropriate for the purpose of route learning. That is the job of people employed by the TOC/FOCs to produce that. NR have a duty to cooperate with them, and they discharge that by publishing changes to them (not to mention consulting the TOC/FOCs extensively when designing the changes in the first place; it doesn't come out of the blue) . I am certain that they will have access to controlled copies of the signalling plans should they need them too.

This is down to the people producing the route learning material, because NR have no reason to keep secrets from them, quite the opposite.

Thank you for your reply & I'm not disputing anything you're saying.

In the SA (that is available to everyone except for the NESA site) under each Route Code there's all the information about that particular route except the signalling information. What is needed (in my opinion) is also included in the SA is for each Route Code is a Table Of Routes for each signal where you can be multi-routed. NR produce this in the WONs when changes take place but this information gets lost in the system. If this information is too sensitive to be available to everyone (like the SA) then only have this information available on the NESA site.

 

[zwk500]

Thank you for your reply & I'm not disputing anything you're saying.

In the SA (that is available to everyone except for the NESA site) under each Route Code there's all the information about that particular route except the signalling information. What is needed (in my opinion) is also included in the SA is for each Route Code is a Table Of Routes for each signal where you can be multi-routed. NR produce this in the WONs when changes take place but this information gets lost in the system. If this information is too sensitive to be available to everyone (like the SA) then only have this information available on the NESA site.

This type of detailed signalling information is not appropriate for the sectional appendix as it currently exists.
TOCs should be collating route boxes if required for driver route Knowledge and circulating it internally. It's important that TOC competency management are involved in the process so that any changes are reflected in the material quickly and drivers briefed appropriately.

 

[Sunset route]

In recent years getting hold of yellow perils for signalling alterations at our signalling centre is rarer than rocking horse **** theses days, we have to learn what we can and can’t do and what the real world indications to the drivers are, by trail and error.