• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Signalling/power issues in the Streatham area 4/7-5/7

Status
Not open for further replies.

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
Tonight's certainly trying to live up to Monday's madness; two instances of people being hit by trains earlier on in the day (albeit one was at Bushey) and now, what appears to be, a total loss of signalling between Streatham Common and Selhurst. Far from a good week on Southern.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
The signalling power supplies have had a major failure which is still being diagnosed and repaired. There was a “quick fix” implemented around 0100 but it didn’t last.

An appropriate generator is being sourced to provide stable power supplies but may be anything up to a few hours away (yes, this is being worked on).

Affected areas are South of Balham to Selhurst and vice versa, and Streatham to Haydons Road and v/v. Affects the signals, track circuits and points on all lines.

Loads of ticket acceptance in place. Trains to Victoria will be diverted via Crystal Palace or sent over to London Bridge where at all possible. Advice is not to travel to Victoria, though. No GX, many coastal trains terminating at East Croydon or Three Bridges and starting back from there, etc.

Those TL services which still exist will still run on the London Bridge route, but obviously the Wimbledoon Loop will be rather worse affected.

One unusual thing... some GWR services may be asked to call all stations Gatwick - Redhill...
 

londonmidland

Established Member
Joined
22 Dec 2009
Messages
1,835
Location
Leicester
Major disruption to and from London Victoria and through Streatham. It is advised not to travel to Victoria.

- Gatwick Express Services currently suspended.
- Thameslink services between Luton and Sutton via Wimbledon are currently suspended.
- First class is also declassified across the Govia Thameslink Railway network only.

A whole day of chaos on top of the usual chaos it seems.
 

fusionblue

Member
Joined
10 May 2012
Messages
326
TL have tweeted not to travel from the south, and the website says the Sutton loop is suspended.

But as usual they forgot about Sevenoaks.

Is anything arunning to/from that direction?
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,672
The signalling power supplies have had a major failure which is still being diagnosed and repaired. There was a “quick fix” implemented around 0100 but it didn’t last.

An appropriate generator is being sourced to provide stable power supplies but may be anything up to a few hours away (yes, this is being worked on).

Affected areas are South of Balham to Selhurst and vice versa, and Streatham to Haydons Road and v/v. Affects the signals, track circuits and points on all lines.

Loads of ticket acceptance in place. Trains to Victoria will be diverted via Crystal Palace or sent over to London Bridge where at all possible. Advice is not to travel to Victoria, though. No GX, many coastal trains terminating at East Croydon or Three Bridges and starting back from there, etc.

Those TL services which still exist will still run on the London Bridge route, but obviously the Wimbledoon Loop will be rather worse affected.

One unusual thing... some GWR services may be asked to call all stations Gatwick - Redhill...
Wow. They are actually doing that. The disruption to GWR services can't be insignificant, given they have to do it both ways. This will make drivers late for their next working. What about their minimum hours between workings? Shame I don't have time to travel on it.

I can't believe GWR are really doing this, given the amount of times the trains are terminated at Redhill due to late running!. It can add an hour onto ones journey to Gatwick Airpprt when they do that and I never see any GTR services diverted via Redhill to help when this occurs. At least this has been my recent experience. Maybe someone can givee an example of GTR helping GWR.

Take the 20.00 Gatwick Airport to Reading. that was started short from Redhill on Tuesday. The next train to Redhill from Gatwick Aiport isn't timetabled until 20.33 so you miss the 20.34 from Redhill to Reading. Next train from Gatwick to Reading not until 21.00 and it left about 8 minutes late.

So why not leave Gatwick Airport earlier to reach Redhill? Well according to today's timetable at least, the previous service is at 19.19. One wouldn't even know the train was due to be cancelled at that time.

Of you arrived at 19.10 and decided to wait for the 20.00, you be waiting for almost 2 hours, as the 21.00 left late. Of course in that time you might go via London, depending on when your told the 20.00 is cancelled.

Whether Southern diverted a service via Redhill to enable people to get the 20.00 from there or the 20.34, I don't know as I wasn't there the whole time.

So what I'm saying is I think is great that GWR are helping our GTR but it needs to be reciprocal and not just in one direction.
 

zoneking

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
269
Some GWR trains are cancelled between Gatwick and Redhill.
It looks horrendous for whole of Southern this morning. My sympathies with all.
 

greaterwest

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,433
One unusual thing... some GWR services may be asked to call all stations Gatwick - Redhill...
This isn't unusual in the slightest, when Southern are having major problems GWR will often put additional stops on. They do it for SWR at Earley, Winnersh Triangle, Winnersh and Wanborough sometimes too.

GTR declared code black, disruption until end of service.
 

Dolive22

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2009
Messages
463
Is this a failure of supply to the signalling from mains/DNO or within NR's distribution? Is it for the signalling centre or for signals?

I suspect there is some nuance in what has already been posted that tells the answer, but I can't quite get straight what has failed.
 

Tio Terry

Member
Joined
2 May 2014
Messages
1,178
Location
Spain
Is this a failure of supply to the signalling from mains/DNO or within NR's distribution? Is it for the signalling centre or for signals?

I suspect there is some nuance in what has already been posted that tells the answer, but I can't quite get straight what has failed.

Sounds very much like a problem with the power switching system at Stretham. Two DNO supplies from separate grid points unable to supply the signalling system but no major power failures across south London points to those supplies being OK but not usable. Similarly a traction power derived supply also not able to be used. All of that points to some sort of switching device failure which prevents any supply reaching the signalling system. I would have thought it would be possible to provide a hard wired bypass, but I'm guessing that's not possible - which points towards physical damage so bad that only a standby generator can be used. Must be a lot of damage!
 

Dolive22

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2009
Messages
463
Sounds very much like a problem with the power switching system at Stretham. Two DNO supplies from separate grid points unable to supply the signalling system but no major power failures across south London points to those supplies being OK but not usable. Similarly a traction power derived supply also not able to be used. All of that points to some sort of switching device failure which prevents any supply reaching the signalling system. I would have thought it would be possible to provide a hard wired bypass, but I'm guessing that's not possible - which points towards physical damage so bad that only a standby generator can be used. Must be a lot of damage!
How does that even happen? Was there a fire?
 

Tio Terry

Member
Joined
2 May 2014
Messages
1,178
Location
Spain
How does that even happen? Was there a fire?

No idea in this case. It's very, very, rare to lose all three supplies at the same time. I don't know if there was a fire but that is one thing that could make providing a temporary fix far more difficult.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
This isn't unusual in the slightest, when Southern are having major problems GWR will often put additional stops on. They do it for SWR at Earley, Winnersh Triangle, Winnersh and Wanborough sometimes too.

GTR declared code black, disruption until end of service.

It pretty much only happens in Code Black types of situations, in other words when there are potentially no trains of their own onto which GTR/Southern can put additional stops.

I can’t actually recall the last time GTR successfully got stops at Earlswood, Salfords and Horley onto any single GWR service. GWR Control is probably the most obliging that I’ve ever dealt with, but this is one of the requests which does tend to be refused, and information at start of service that several services are to call all-stations on this corridor is vanishingly rare. Ticket acceptance for the vanilla flavour stops between Guildford/Reigate/Redhill and Gatwick is quite common, though.

No idea in this case. It's very, very, rare to lose all three supplies at the same time. I don't know if there was a fire but that is one thing that could make providing a temporary fix far more difficult.

It was a newly-installed piece of kit that went up in smoke, followed by a cable fire in a substation this morning.
 

strawbrick

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2015
Messages
73
I was once involved in the design and construction of an "Internet Server Hotel" which provided "guaranteed permanent power" to it's customers.

We had:
  • Two totaly independent power supplies from the National Grid (i.e. not from two sub-stations on the same sub-grid, indeed the availabilty of this diversity was a key factor in choosing the site)
  • N plus one standby generators, where N is the number needed to essntial full mains power to the servers, in our case N was 1
  • A mobile generator which plugged in when one of the permanent generators was being serviced, thus maintaing N plus 1
  • Sufficient back-up batteries to maintain essentilal power as the generator(s) came up (nowadays this is probably replaced by a rolling generator set-up)
However, after all that back-up there was still a single point of failure at the switch-gear ...
 

Dolive22

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2009
Messages
463
I was once involved in the design and construction of an "Internet Server Hotel" which provided "guaranteed permanent power" to it's customers.

We had:
  • Two totaly independent power supplies from the National Grid (i.e. not from two sub-stations on the same sub-grid, indeed the availabilty of this diversity was a key factor in choosing the site)
  • N plus one standby generators, where N is the number needed to essntial full mains power to the servers, in our case N was 1
  • A mobile generator which plugged in when one of the permanent generators was being serviced, thus maintaing N plus 1
  • Sufficient back-up batteries to maintain essentilal power as the generator(s) came up (nowadays this is probably replaced by a rolling generator set-up)
However, after all that back-up there was still a single point of failure at the switch-gear ...
Is that normal? Is it possible to get round it with duplicate switch gear?
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,672
This isn't unusual in the slightest, when Southern are having major problems GWR will often put additional stops on. They do it for SWR at Earley, Winnersh Triangle, Winnersh and Wanborough sometimes too.

GTR declared code black, disruption until end of service.
So do Southern help out GWR?
 

greaterwest

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,433
So do Southern help out GWR?
In what way? Southern and GWR don't share a route where only GWR make the stops; however if GWR are having problems there is usually ticket acceptance arranged (Dorking Main/Redhill/Gatwick, Southampton - Brighton/Portsmouth corridor)
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,672
In what way? Southern and GWR don't share a route where only GWR make the stops; however if GWR are having problems there is usually ticket acceptance arranged (Dorking Main/Redhill/Gatwick, Southampton - Brighton/Portsmouth corridor)
They share the lines between Redhill and Gatwick Airport. So wgen a service is temeined short at Redhill, Southern divert a sevcd vai Redhill to Gatwick. After all their is only one GWR services Gatwick an hour and you can be delayed by an hour when it's terminated short at Redhill due to late running.
 

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
3,355
It pretty much only happens in Code Black types of situations, in other words when there are potentially no trains of their own onto which GTR/Southern can put additional stops.

I can’t actually recall the last time GTR successfully got stops at Earlswood, Salfords and Horley onto any single GWR service. GWR Control is probably the most obliging that I’ve ever dealt with, but this is one of the requests which does tend to be refused, and information at start of service that several services are to call all-stations on this corridor is vanishingly rare. Ticket acceptance for the vanilla flavour stops between Guildford/Reigate/Redhill and Gatwick is quite common, though.

It’s the first time in nearly 4 years as a GWR Controller I’ve granted the request for stops between Redhill and Gatwick. It usually causes way too much delay to be practical, but it was plainly obvious once we were made aware what the disruption was about that Southern were going to be in a bad place today; decision in the grand scheme of things was a no-brainer. The only caveat I gave Southern was it would be up to the individual crews as there’s a very real possibility some have never called in at those stations before - if they were unfamiliar/unsure we weren’t going to force the issue.

I think it’s caused a few delays/cancellations elsewhere on the North Downs; and I suspect a fair degree of overcrowding - but people are moving; and it’s a massive favour in the bank I can call on from Southern now.

So do Southern help out GWR?

It’s not unheard of for them to divert via Redhill for us - it’s rare; but not as rare as us calling at Earlswood etc for them. Sensible requests are normally heard.
 

jha4ceb

Member
Joined
10 Jun 2011
Messages
81
1L38 appears to be heading southbound in service over the affected area now.
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,192
Talking of helping other TOCs out, I’ve know (although it’s very rare) for both GWR and SN to call at stations along the Netley line.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
So a new wiring arrangement was brought in (at the expense of a lot of other stuff) to try to work around the power failure and allow most routes to run via Selhurst/Streatham Common by 1400. It was actually closer to 1500 when trains started to run.

And now it would appear it has just gone bang again... not sure if this makes things worse, but it may turn out that it does. Looks like 1L38 is stranded en-route around Norbury ish.
 

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
So a new wiring arrangement was brought in (at the expense of a lot of other stuff) to try to work around the power failure and allow most routes to run via Selhurst/Streatham Common by 1400. It was actually closer to 1500 when trains started to run.

And now it would appear it has just gone bang again... not sure if this makes things worse, but it may turn out that it does. Looks like 1L38 is stranded en-route around Norbury ish.

Looks like anything departing Victoria will be headed via Crystal Palace until further notice then! God help any passengers onboard 1L38 after last night's fiasco.

EDIT: 1L38 seems to be making progress towards Selhurst, but I can't see anymore trains attempting it. (EDIT 2: apart from 1H35, which seems to be making good progress on the up slow).
 
Last edited:
Joined
31 Jul 2010
Messages
360
Is it just me or does GTR seem to be terrible at disruption planning and running a service. Where as most operators would revert to simplifeid routes, or all stations services they seem content to run the full timetable and let all the trains build up. OK yes they did at least suspend the Caterham and Coulsdon Town stopping services for most of the day, but everything else they seemed to let them get on with it. Maybe it is just my poor observation, or a term of their contract.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
A bit of advice to all in the area... Wimbledon station is reported to be extremely busy and Clapham Junction going the same way. Probably best not to try changing trains at either if possible.

Looks like anything departing Victoria will be headed via Crystal Palace until further notice then! God help any passengers onboard 1L38 after last night's fiasco.

EDIT: 1L38 seems to be making progress towards Selhurst, but I can't see anymore trains attempting it.

Funnily enough 1H35 seems to be trundling up the Up Slow. Wouldn't have thought they'd have risked it.

The Fast lines do seem worst affected by the latest bout of problems.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top