Signalling/power issues in the Streatham area 4/7-5/7

[tsr]

So it looks like the Slow lines are reopening for the time being...

Why does the signalling power supply in the area not have UPS?

There are many UPSs and backup generators around the network, but equipment failures like this can require far more diagnostics than just "the power's off so we'll switch in something else". If that had worked, even on the second or third goes, we wouldn't have had the problems up until now.

As has been posted above, often switching or cabling is more vulnerable as a single point of failure.

 

[RichardKing]

Funnily enough 1H35 seems to be trundling up the Up Slow. Wouldn't have thought they'd have risked it.

The Fast lines do seem worst affected by the latest bout of problems.

2B91, 1F39 and 1L41 are all making good progress on the Up Slow as well. Risky, but could we see some sort of attempt at a peak-time service out of Victoria I wonder?

 

[Dai Corner]

Why does the signalling power supply in the area not have UPS?

See post no 11 above. There appears to be a single point of failure, and it failed.

 

[tsr]

UPDATE: Effectively nothing much running Down (southbound) from Clapham Junction via Balham. Down Fast line at Streatham Common is blocked by continuation of signalling power issues and Down Slow line at Balham is blocked by a track circuit failure.

The Down Fast may open soon. No idea about the Down Slow.

 

[RichardKing]

1F40 has just departed Victoria 12 late, so, unless it's going via Crystal Palace, they may be having another attempt at the down fast.

EDIT: problems further down south with platforms 2 & 3 closed at Three Bridges because of a signalling problem.

 

[Dolive22]

What exactly lost power? I saw someone say it was a panel, which I always understood to be something between the size of a laptop and a car that a signaller sat and controlled the signals. Is any of that correct?

 

[SamYeager]

Presumably there's only a limited amount of services that can run on the Down lines before you run out of trains and crew?

 

[pompeyfan]

A bit of advice to all in the area... Wimbledon station is reported to be extremely busy and Clapham Junction going the same way. Probably best not to try changing trains at either if possible.

It’s a good job that the South Western is behaving itself for once then... touch wood anyway.

 

[RichardKing]

Presumably there's only a limited amount of services that can run on the Down lines before you run out of trains and crew?

Trains are starting to make progress into Victoria via the Up Slow now, so that's not so much of a problem. As for crew, that must be quite complicated as, not only are they all displaced, but you need to ensure the Driver has enough route knowledge to take the diversion via Crystal Palace.

 

[Edgemaster]

5M41 looks to being used to prove the Down Fast, as it's well off it's booked route: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O17077/2018/07/05/advanced

 

[RichardKing]

5M41 looks to being used to prove the Down Fast, as it's well off it's booked route: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O17077/2018/07/05/advanced

And all seems to be well.

 

[tsr]

Down Fast may be able to reopen to traffic shortly...

What exactly lost power? I saw someone say it was a panel, which I always understood to be something between the size of a laptop and a car that a signaller sat and controlled the signals. Is any of that correct?

Effectively a low voltage (but not that low in layman's terms!) power supply panel has failed, locally to the signalling equipment - in turn causing much of the applicable signalling panel's track circuits, axle counters, points detections and signal aspects to experience faults.

I can see how this is confusing!

Presumably there's only a limited amount of services that can run on the Down lines before you run out of trains and crew?

Kind of the other way round. Before sending trains to Victoria, GTR Control are having to check they won't "block out" platforms by having trains stranded there without crew. The more trains get stuck without crew, the fewer platforms there will be at the terminus for the trains arriving with crew on. It's a spiral of doom if you get it wrong! May or may not have accidentally done that myself.

Trains are starting to make progress into Victoria via the Up Slow now, so that's not so much of a problem. As for crew, that must be quite complicated as, not only are they all displaced, but you need to ensure the Driver has enough route knowledge to take the diversion via Crystal Palace.

Well, yes. Compounded by many of the Southern Metro area drivers (with route knowledge) being based at Selhurst, which hasn't had any trains today, meaning everyone's had to traipse down to Norwood Junction or get taxis.

 

[Dolive22]

So it's a LV distribution panel in that part of the track that feeds 400v or 230v to signalling equipment in the area?

Thanks tsr

 

[Muzer]

What exactly lost power? I saw someone say it was a panel, which I always understood to be something between the size of a laptop and a car that a signaller sat and controlled the signals. Is any of that correct?

To add to @tsr's direct answer to your question, a "panel" usually refers to a large electronic system for viewing signalling information and setting routes for trains directly on a diagram. A photo of one of the panels in the Victoria Signalling Centre can be found on the Network Rail website.

Computer-based equivalents of these are more usually referred to as "workstations".

 

[Dolive22]

To add to @tsr's direct answer to your question, a "panel" usually refers to a large electronic system for viewing signalling information and setting routes for trains directly on a diagram. A photo of one of the panels in the Victoria Signalling Centre can be found on the Network Rail website.

Computer-based equivalents of these are more usually referred to as "workstations".

Thanks. My inability to distinguish a panel from a workstation may explain my rather broad idea of their size!

 

[tsr]

All lines reopened, as it stands.

 

[RichardKing]

All lines reopened, as it stands.

Very good news. This evening's peak will be precarious, as expected, but NR have worked wonders to be able to have the lines open for the start of the rush.

 

[Tio Terry]

So it's a LV distribution panel in that part of the track that feeds 400v or 230v to signalling equipment in the area?

Thanks tsr

Signalling lineside supplies are normally 650ac.

 

[infobleep]

It’s the first time in nearly 4 years as a GWR Controller I’ve granted the request for stops between Redhill and Gatwick. It usually causes way too much delay to be practical, but it was plainly obvious once we were made aware what the disruption was about that Southern were going to be in a bad place today; decision in the grand scheme of things was a no-brainer. The only caveat I gave Southern was it would be up to the individual crews as there’s a very real possibility some have never called in at those stations before - if they were unfamiliar/unsure we weren’t going to force the issue.

I think it’s caused a few delays/cancellations elsewhere on the North Downs; and I suspect a fair degree of overcrowding - but people are moving; and it’s a massive favour in the bank I can call on from Southern now.



It’s not unheard of for them to divert via Redhill for us - it’s rare; but not as rare as us calling at Earlswood etc for them. Sensible requests are normally heard.

OK. Thanks for that. Didn't know that. Could a passenger ask for it to be requested or is it unlikely a passenger asking would reach the controller?

I don't travel every day on GRW but whenever I've been involved in disruption, I've never been lucky enough for Southern to help out.

 

[infobleep]

Great news it's reopened. Thanks to all those working hard to resolve it.

Incidentally there is no disruption notice on the Haywards Heath or Billingshurst National Rail Enquiries online departure boards and thus one can't easily click through to the service disruption notice from those stations when looking up trains.

I tweeted Southern and National Rail Enquiries to see if someone could add it but the person who respond didn't seem to understand my Tweet. My I replied twice more in my attempt to help them understand it but they got ignored. Probably too busy to read them, which is understandable.

Does anyone have any advice on how best to report things that may have been missed, communications wise? Is their a technical industry term ueed when refer to the National Rail Enquiries online departure boards?

I was only trying to be helpful when reporting the issue.

 

[JN114]

OK. Thanks for that. Didn't know that. Could a passenger ask for it to be requested or is it unlikely a passenger asking would reach the controller?

No, we very rarely directly interact with the public (probably best for everyone that way!) - It’s up to us to identify alternatives for passengers and put those arrangements in place. Stations will sometimes ask can we do xyz, but unless it’s only involving our own services we have to garner the cooperation of our industry colleagues.

A request via station (or likely better GWR on-train) staff might produce a positive result - we can’t keep an eye on everything.

 

[tsr]

More permanent repairs will be made from approx. 2000hrs, which may impact the service.

 

[SWT_USER]

On a related note, who do I claim delay repay from for a Victoria to Feltham journey? Southern because the delay is their services or SWR because they issue the season ticket?

I have a London terminals to Feltham annual gold card. Will probably end up getting the District line to Richmond and changing there for SWR.

 

[infobleep]

No, we very rarely directly interact with the public (probably best for everyone that way!) - It’s up to us to identify alternatives for passengers and put those arrangements in place. Stations will sometimes ask can we do xyz, but unless it’s only involving our own services we have to garner the cooperation of our industry colleagues.

A request via station (or likely better GWR on-train) staff might produce a positive result - we can’t keep an eye on everything.

Well I was once suck at an unstaffed station and getting a faster train to stop there via the help pont was providing difficult.

Ali I was once told at Gatwck a short stating train at Redhill would wait for customers from Gatwick. It left as we pulled in.

I do agree it's I'd it going via station staff ot help points but it seems that's not reliable in my experience.

This is going of topic so I'll leave it there.

 

[Marklund]

Signalling lineside supplies are normally 650ac.

Yes, and transformed down at the location to 110v and also trans/rec to mainly 50v, along with 12v and 24v supplies.

 

[westcoaster]

Hearing the wires have come down at Bedford station, to compound mater's more.

 

[Muzer]

On a related note, who do I claim delay repay from for a Victoria to Feltham journey? Southern because the delay is their services or SWR because they issue the season ticket?

I have a London terminals to Feltham annual gold card. Will probably end up getting the District line to Richmond and changing there for SWR.

It's always the operator who causes the first significant (ie delay repay-able) delay in your journey. So if you use the District Line because you can't get a Southern service out of Victoria, it's Southern.

 

[RichardKing]

Hearing the wires have come down at Bedford station, to compound mater's more.

Feel terribly sorry for the frontline staff who have to deal with the s**t that all these problems are throwing up. Hope my fellow passengers realise that station/platform/onboard staff can't do anything about this mess and are simply trying to help them!

 

[infobleep]

Well the 17:25 London Bridge service to Guilldford managed to run but not the 18:55. I think our guard was meant to be working the 18:55 or perhaps pick it up on route at Leatherhead.

Interesting the 17:25 left Sutton just 9 minutes down but by the time it got to Effingham Junction is was now 19 minutes late due to hung stuck behind an Effingham Junction terminator. This had to do it's usual shut into.the sidings and back again. At least we passed it whilst it was in the siding or I assume we did.

It was 21 late into Guilldford, so delay repay due.

 

[tsr]

Well the 17:25 London Bridge service to Guilldford managed to run but not the 18:55. I think our guard was meant to be working the 18:55 or perhaps pick it up on route at Leatherhead.

Interesting the 17:25 left Sutton just 9 minutes down but by the time it got to Effingham Junction is was now 19 minutes late due to hung stuck behind an Effingham Junction terminator. This had to do it's usual shut into.the sidings and back again. At least we passed it whilst it was in the siding or I assume we did.

It was 21 late into Guilldford, so delay repay due.

The evening Guildford services are both meant to be worked by the same conductor. Effectively they go Sutton->Guildford->Leatherhead [change platform] then Leatherhead-Guildford [lock out of service].