Sites for Labour's New Towns that already have rail connections

[HSTEd]

Probably not as full as you think they would be, given that people would be having maybe one delivery a day at most.

Once you have a dedicated delivery infrastructure it would enable a bunch of other connected savings however.
The infrastructure could be used for bin collection and the like.

One robot to every housing unit per day is going to add up very quickly, and I think it would probably grow to more than that in relatively short order.

A dedicated infrastructure would likely lead to substantial improvements in efficiency.

 

[The Ham]

Sure. But we're talking about new towns with many times the population density of MK, and much less car ownership, so presumably many more deliveries to the home. How full would the Redways be if everyone used delivery bots for their shopping?

Probably not as full as you think they would be, given that people would be having maybe one delivery a day at most.

I'd also add that the general requirements for cycleway provision has increased, so there would be wider corridors for then to use.

Once you have a dedicated delivery infrastructure it would enable a bunch of other connected savings however.
The infrastructure could be used for bin collection and the like.

One robot to every housing unit per day is going to add up very quickly, even as a top end estimate.

A dedicated infrastructure would likely lead to substantial improvements in efficiency.

Bin collection isn't so that much, a town of about 12,000 people is only 5 days out of 14 (fortnightly waste/recycling and then one day for garden waste) for traditional wheelie bin collection by lorry and then typically only for a very short time each day on each section of road.

Arguably if we're going more dense than typical suburban housing estates then the need to travel cycling distances over walking distances decreases and so a (say) 4m wide active travel corridor probably wouldn't be all that busy for much of the day.

Which highlights something, if there were capacity issues, they could be overcome by managing when (and where) delivery bots can travel. For example avoiding the school at drop off and pick up or the train station 5 minutes before or 2 minutes after a train arrival.

 

[HSTEd]

Bin collection isn't so that much, a town of about 12,000 people is only 5 days out of 14 (fortnightly waste/recycling and then one day for garden waste) for traditional wheelie bin collection by lorry and then typically only for a very short time each day on each section of road.

It will still require staff that have proven increasingly difficult to recruit as time has gone by.
We also have increasing issues with vermin gaining access to bins or them blowing over and such.

In our labour starved future, we should probably eliminate jobs which are undesirable to the populace as much as possible.
If we are having delivery robots, its an obvious next step to use this infrastructure to carry waste to a central disposal point.

Waste removal on demand would be a major step forward and would allow far fewer staff to operate a waste collection system, and for it to involve less direct handling of waste.

 

[The Ham]

It will still require staff that have proven increasingly difficult to recruit as time has gone by.
We also have increasing issues with vermin gaining access to bins or them blowing over and such.

In our labour starved future, we should probably eliminate jobs which are undesirable to the populace as much as possible.
If we are having delivery robots, its an obvious next step to use this infrastructure to carry waste to a central disposal point.

Waste removal on demand would be a major step forward and would allow far fewer staff to operate a waste collection system, and for it to involve less direct handling of waste.

I'm not saying that automatic bin collection would happen (and I agree it's something which is fairly easy to remove staff from a task which isn't popular to do), rather that it's still not going to take up a lot of capacity.

 

[bspahh]

The Government has published Draft Text for the National Planning Policy Framework , for consultation.

There is a thread on Twitter which has some highlights

The draft National Planning Policy Framework is out.

It's the most important housing (and infrastructure) policy document in England.

So what's changed?

It will be easier to add a loft conversion. At the moment, a solar power scheme needs more paperwork if it is 50MW or more. The proposal is to increase that threshold to 150MW and 100MW for onshore wind power.

"Grey belt" is defined:

For the purposes of plan-making and decision-making, ‘grey belt’ is defined as land in the green belt comprising Previously Developed Land and any other parcels and/or areas of Green Belt land that make a limited contribution to the five Green Belt purposes (as defined in para 140 of this Framework), but excluding those areas or assets of particular importance listed in footnote 7 of this Framework (other than land designated as Green Belt).

 

[BrianW]

Reverting to the thread title ... rail-served possible New Towns-

Prompted by thoughts of Bletchley/ Stony Stratford/ Wolverton (MK) and Dawley/ Oakengates/ Wellington (Telford) ... how about

- Calvert/ Winslow/ Newton Longville (Newton New Town?)

- Something South/Mid Beds-ish (Dorries Town?)

- Derby/ Long Eaton/ Nottingham (Redwallton/ Long Eaten by Mining?

Time for late Tea ...

 

[Magdalia]

Media reports this morning suggest that there will be announcement later today about the establishment of a task force to identify new town locations.

Two names being mentioned as being involved are Sir Michael Lyons and Dame Kate Barker.

Lyons has a local government background and I'm old enough to remember his reviews into public sector relocation and local government finance in the Blair/Brown years.

Barker is an economist who has been a member of the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee, the Housing Corporation, the Office for Budget Responsibility and the National Infrastructure Commission.

EDIT

There is announcement on gov.uk here:

Expert taskforce to spearhead a new generation of new towns

A new generation of new towns to kickstart economic growth and get Britain building again.

www.gov.uk

• Long-term vision to deliver largescale new communities of at least 10,000 new homes each set out.
• Housing expert Sir Michael Lyons to lead an independent New Towns Taskforce, supported by Deputy Chair Dame Kate Barker.
• Appropriate locations for new towns to be recommended within 12 months.

 

[Recessio]

The Guardian is reporting that some of the new towns may be large extensions to existing towns. I'm guessing that this is based on the idea that existing towns have existing infrastructure, perhaps including good rail links?

 

[BrianW]

The Guardian is reporting that some of the new towns may be large extensions to existing towns. I'm guessing that this is based on the idea that existing towns have existing infrastructure, perhaps including good rail links?

Indeed, the official statements refer to such possible extensions.

In passing, I make the observation that 'edge-of-town' locations, though they may have rail lines in proximity or passing through may not be amenable to the addition or reopening of a station.

With that in mind, I wonder whether Tiverton Parkway might expect attention, maybe together with Cullompton and Wellington?

Similarly East Midlands Parkway New Town in connection with the Ivanhoe Line, and/or Great Central New Town/ NewFoundryLand?

'Beads-on-a-string' another 'polynucleic' concept.

The Taskforce has a year to come up with and evaluate and recommend enough possibilities to make their contribution to 370.00 new homes built (or 'commenced?) by the end of this Parliament's five-years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Guardian is reporting that some of the new towns may be large extensions to existing towns. I'm guessing that this is based on the idea that existing towns have existing infrastructure, perhaps including good rail links?

Several of the existing ones were like that, e.g. Preston has a large chunk of New Town expansion to (I think) its north west - Cottam etc. And it'd probably make more sense to expand Milton Keynes than stick another one right next to it (though I do see some sense in the idea of Calvert with an East West Rail station, or simply expand Aylesbury further, and also to ecotowns along the Marston Vale).

 

[Magdalia]

The Taskforce has a year to come up with and evaluate and recommend enough possibilities to make their contribution to 370.00 new homes built (or 'commenced?) by the end of this Parliament's five-years.

That wasn't my interpretation of what housing minister Matthew Pennycook said this morning. I got the impression that the 370k new houses per year towards the end of this parliament is without relying on any contribution from new towns.

 

[Nottingham59]

I make the observation that 'edge-of-town' locations, though they may have rail lines in proximity or passing through may not be amenable to the addition or reopening of a station.

My suggestions is a major expansion of Lichfield. Less water stress than the south east and plenty of space between the existing town centre and Fradley Park. And I'd build Fradley Junction off to Handsacre in a way that was compatible with a new HS2 station between there and the A38.



And a second Milton Keynes, to the south the current one, so that Bletchley station becomes the MK2 Hauptbahnhoff, with MKC acting as the reversing sidings for trains to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And a second Milton Keynes, to the south the current one, so that Bletchley station becomes the MK2 Hauptbahnhoff, with MKC acting as the reversing sidings for trains to London.

Just expand the existing one. There's plenty of empty space around it for it to get a lot bigger without creating a polycentric mess.

 

[BrianW]

That wasn't my interpretation of what housing minister Matthew Pennycook said this morning. I got the impression that the 370k new houses per year towards the end of this parliament is without relying on any contribution from new towns.

It's certainly the case that the identification and designation of New Towns will take a large proportion of the coming five years, and thus completions will be at best a small proportion (minority?) of the 1.5 million target/ commitment/ aspiration. 'Spreading the load' of expectation across all towns/ cities/ local authorities will make delivery more likely and achievable.

I expect a bit of everything.

I do not myself underestimate the ability of any NIMBY to find ways to have their way, whether or not they are related to rail links- Sandy St Neots and Cambourne coming to mind (and an Oxbridge Arc Ark?).

My suggestions is a major expansion of Lichfield. Less water stress than the south east and plenty of space between the existing town centre and Fradley Park. And I'd build Fradley Junction off to Handsacre in a way that was compatible with a new HS2 station between there and the A38.

View attachment 162722

And a second Milton Keynes, to the south the current one, so that Bletchley station becomes the MK2 Hauptbahnhoff, with MKC acting as the reversing sidings for trains to London.

Lichfield's likelihood must be enhanced following the election of a Labour MP in succession to the 'decorative' Michael Fabricant; and it already has City status!

 

[Magdalia]

I do not myself underestimate the ability of any NIMBY to find ways to have their way, whether or not they are related to rail links- Sandy St Neots and Cambourne coming to mind (and an Oxbridge Arc Ark?).

Like New Towns, East West Rail is not going to happen in the lifetime of this parliament, but hopefully the Lyons/Barker review will look at both together.

In terms of house building in the next 5 years in the Cambridge area the key development is the Chatteris reservoir to unblock the Environment Agency objections to existing plans because of lack of water.

One thing that struck me, listening to coverage yesterday and today, is that more than 300 new MPs mean lots of young MPs, who see the housing issue in a very different way to the people they replaced. I am more optimistic that the NIMBYs will be overridden. In that respect the quick approval of the Sunnica solar farm is a good sign, irrespective of what people think about the merits of that project.

It is going to be interesting to see how much difference it makes to categorise more key infrastructure as Nationally significant allowing use of Development Consent Orders.

 

[Recessio]

Wellingborough could be a good candidate. Until recently, there was nothing but fields on one side of the railway station. Even now with the new development in the last few years, it's still an incredibly lop-sided town, as it were, with lots of space on the eastern side of the tracks.

 

[Magdalia]

I am listening to PM on Radio 4.

Evan Davis said that they are going to do some features on New Towns through the summer.

Today Davis talked to Samuel Hughes Head of Housing at the Centre for Policy Studies Think Tank.

The Oxford-Cambridge arc and East West Rail were mentioned. Hughes did suggest where East West Rail crosses the East Coast Main Line as a New Town location.

In a separate development South Cambs DC have approved 3500 houses on the Bourn Airfield site which is near to Cambourne and next to the A428.

World War Two airfield in Bourn set for housing development

Long-awaited plans for a new village are approved amid concerns about local water supply.

www.bbc.co.uk

A council has granted permission to long-awaited plans to build 3,500 homes on the site of a former World War Two airfield.

The development at Bourn Airfield, Cambridgeshire, was first approved by South Cambridgeshire District Council in 2021.

The plans received the go-ahead on Tuesday after years of delays due to concerns about the local water supply.

Bridget Smith, a Liberal Democrat councillor and the leader of the authority, said the council had now been given "more clarity" about the future of sustainable water supply in the area around Cambridge.

I can't see with clarity what has given the council more clarity on water supply!

 

[The Ham]

I am listening to PM on Radio 4.

Evan Davis said that they are going to do some features on New Towns through the summer.

Today Davis talked to Samuel Hughes Head of Housing at the Centre for Policy Studies Think Tank.

The Oxford-Cambridge arc and East West Rail were mentioned. Hughes did suggest where East West Rail crosses the East Coast Main Line as a New Town location.

In a separate development South Cambs DC have approved 3500 houses on the Bourn Airfield site which is near to Cambourne and next to the A428.

World War Two airfield in Bourn set for housing development

Long-awaited plans for a new village are approved amid concerns about local water supply.

www.bbc.co.uk

I can't see with clarity what has given the council more clarity on water supply!

3,500 homes on a single site is likely to take at least 3 years before building starts and then will probably deliver between 100 and 200 homes a year and so it could be several years before the water supply becomes an issue.

Add in there's been more publicity on water (supply) neutrality (i.e. investment in water saving in the existing community so that the overall water use stays the same).

 

[BrianW]

3,500 homes on a single site is likely to take at least 3 years before building starts and then will probably deliver between 100 and 200 homes a year and so it could be several years before the water supply becomes an issue.

Add in there's been more publicity on water (supply) neutrality (i.e. investment in water saving in the existing community so that the overall water use stays the same).

New developments offer the opportunity to design rainwater management schemes (swales, water butts, composting toilets, etc) thus reducing demand on systems. Existing water and drainage provision (largely combined systems of foul and surface water disposal) in built-up areas is much harder, and expensive, to address if overloading and spillages are to be reduced and eliminated.

There have been no new reservoirs in 'donkeys' years'- so much for the triumph of NIMBYs, hopefully now in retreat.

 

[Magdalia]

3,500 homes on a single site is likely to take at least 3 years before building starts and then will probably deliver between 100 and 200 homes a year

That will depend on what preparatory work has already been done, if any, and whether contractors are already lined up to do the work.

Watching what the construction industry is already doing in and around Cambridge (including the new station), they work very quickly these days.

Add in there's been more publicity on water (supply) neutrality (i.e. investment in water saving in the existing community so that the overall water use stays the same).

You may be muddling two different things here. The big recent controversy about neutrality was with regard to waste water runoff not water supply. Gove did propose a system of water credits ancillary to his Case for Cambridge but I've not seen anything to say that the new government is taking it forward. This was supposed to work in the way you describe: are there any existing examples of that approach actually delivering?

 

[The Ham]

That will depend on what preparatory work has already been done, if any, and whether contractors are already lined up to do the work.

Watching what the construction industry is already doing in and around Cambridge (including the new station), they work very quickly these days.

Once planning is granted, unless they've provided all the details, there's often still quite a lot planning conditions which need to be sorted before they can start on site.

You may be muddling two different things here. The big recent controversy about neutrality was with regard to waste water runoff not water supply. Gove did propose a system of water credits ancillary to his Case for Cambridge but I've not seen anything to say that the new government is taking it forward. This was supposed to work in the way you describe: are there any existing examples of that approach actually delivering?

The Nutrient Neutrality which is to do with foul water, which is where the credits come into play (which could include the fact that the land being developed may have been agricultural and now isn't). However often included improvements to treatment works (which could be as simple as extra storage to reduce the risk of flooding) and (if it was a brownfield site) removing the existing surface water drainage from the combined network and/or reducing the flow of the surface water from the site.

I'm taking about fresh water supply, where developers can fund water saving devices into schools, hospitals, existing housing stock, etc. and by doing enough can show that their overall impact on water stress would be no worse than it was currently. Add in rainwater harvesting (to reduce the need for as much supply) and it's not necessarily that hard to deliver.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Wellingborough could be a good candidate. Until recently, there was nothing but fields on one side of the railway station. Even now with the new development in the last few years, it's still an incredibly lop-sided town, as it were, with lots of space on the eastern side of the tracks.

It, like several Northamptonshire towns, had an arrangement with the then London County Council to provide houses for what was then called 'London overspill', so the idea of development is not novel.

The development East of the station - originally marketed as an ideal London commuting location - was not initially attended with great success in infrastructure provision. Sewage disposal seems to have originally been connected directly into a trunk main running from Kettering to a works South of Wellingborough but this seems to have resulted in backing up into houses. Certainly, for a period, a sewer pipe, about 2 metres diameter was laid along the footpath/front gardens of the new homes with an arch arrangement over side-turnings - there's footage by 'Purple Vison' on You Tube. This might suggest that drainage arrangements were seen as a difficulty in the development of the ares earlier - when I cycled in the area in steam days it always had a ripe aroma...

 

[och aye]

This Telegraph article mentions Tempsford as a potential new town and makes reference to EWR.

The tiny village eyed by Labour as site for ‘city larger than Oxford’

The 600 residents of Tempsford face gaining up to 350,000 new neighbours if plans go ahead

www.telegraph.co.uk

The tiny village eyed by Labour as site for ‘city larger than Oxford’

It sits in the geographic sweet spot between the major employment centres of London, Oxford and Cambridge. It is bisected by the A1, is due to get a station on the new planned East West Railway, which will connect Oxford and Cambridge, and it would be relatively easy to build it a stop on the East Coast Main Line, which runs from London to Edinburgh.

“That would basically connect Edinburgh to Oxford and Cambridge, which is a huge zone of economic opportunity. For a Government that is so focused on growth, this is just an insane possibility,” says Kane Emerson, head of housing research at the Yimby Alliance.

Dame Kate has made clear that it will be “vital” that the new town locations will support long-term economic growth.

Tempsford has already been identified as a site that is prime for development by the National Infrastructure Commission. Last year, an East West Railway technical report suggested that the village’s population could eventually rise by 44,000 in the years after the planned station opens.

 

[Topological]

This Telegraph article mentions Tempsford as a potential new town and makes reference to EWR.

The tiny village eyed by Labour as site for ‘city larger than Oxford’

The 600 residents of Tempsford face gaining up to 350,000 new neighbours if plans go ahead

www.telegraph.co.uk

The tiny village eyed by Labour as site for ‘city larger than Oxford’

Whilst sympathising with the residents of Tempsford, perhaps this is one of the most obvious places to develop? Given the likely profits involved, it is presumably not beyond the development of the new city to offer all current residents a meaningful market value for their properties?

Nothing should be done without the appropriate infrastructure though, especially EWR and required upgrades to the ECML (others will know more precisely what is needed to ensure capacity into London).

 

[SynthD]

Given the likely profits involved, it is presumably not beyond the development of the new city to offer all current residents a meaningful market value for their properties?

It’s probably simpler to just put parks around them, a green belt within the city. Same for the water to the north west.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s probably simpler to just put parks around them, a green belt within the city. Same for the water to the north west.

The villages of Milton Keynes are largely unspoilt because the traffic is taken away from them by the grid roads. Walk through Woughton on the Green for instance and you'd think the car had been abolished.

 

[Topological]

The danger with such solutions is that the villagers complain more, if they are paid above value then they cannot claim a reduction in value of their properties.

That is not to say maintaining villages within the new city as per Milton Keynes is not doable. I do not think that the existing village has to be demolished.

Maybe the present residents would even have the foresight to realise the village would be the most desirable address in the new city and therefore likely worth more than now.

 

[HSTEd]

The danger with such solutions is that the villagers complain more, if they are paid above value then they cannot claim a reduction in value of their properties.

Since they are left in possesion of their properties I don't think they have much legal standing to claim compensation, especially if a buffer park is left around the village.

It's likely far simpler administratively than attempting to compulsorily purchase the entire village - let alone much quicker.

 

[Trainguy34]

If that does happen, perhaps RAF Tempsford could become another London Stansted-esque airport?

 

[Magdalia]

This Telegraph article mentions Tempsford as a potential new town and makes reference to EWR.

Tempsford was first suggested by East West Rail when they published their 2023 route update announcement. It is not a new idea.

If that does happen, perhaps RAF Tempsford could become another London Stansted-esque airport?

RAF Tempsford is the greybelt land on which much of the new town would be built.

Since they are left in possesion of their properties I don't think they have much legal standing to claim compensation, especially if a buffer park is left around the village.

The existing village and the RAF base are on opposite sides of the East Coast Main Line.

“That would basically connect Edinburgh to Oxford and Cambridge, which is a huge zone of economic opportunity. For a Government that is so focused on growth, this is just an insane possibility,” says Kane Emerson, head of housing research at the Yimby Alliance.

I didn't know that the Yimby Alliance was a thing, but here it is.

Home - YIMBY Alliance

yimbyalliance.org

We’re YIMBYs: we believe that everyone deserves a high quality, safe and affordable place to live. That means we want to see better places and more homes built with the support of local communities. YIMBY stands for “Yes in my back yard”: we support more high-quality homes near us.