SJPN Help - Using 60+ Photocard

[anonlondon]

Hi all,

At the end of August I was travelling on the London underground (marble Arch to Tottenham Court) and was stopped by a TFL officer when attempting to exit through the ticket gates. He asked to see the pass I was travelling on, and I handed over (what I thought) was my standard blue Oyster card. I opened it up and saw that id picked up my mum's 60+ photo card by mistake. I immediately said that it was my mum's and I hadn't realised, and must have picked the card up in error because we both had the same Tate London cover. He asked for my details and I provided them. When asking for my address I told him I no longer lived in the country and so had to try and remember my parents addresses (they've moved since I lived here, in early 2020 and I can never remember the addresses). I provided an address where my dad used to live (although I only realised it was a past address once I'd left), but then also provided my mother's address as a back up.

I now live in Canada and had only come over for a short visit back home, and landed about 5 days prior. I explained that I was really jet lagged and must have picked it up in a daze and asked if I could pay for the correct ticket straight away, and if I could pay a fine. He told me I'd receive a letter with the next steps in the process.

It had been almost 2 months and I still had not received a letter to either address provided, and so late October I emailed TFL advising that I'd received a penalty but had heard nothing. I explained that I had made a mistake but wanted to ensure that I was doing everything required of me to pay the relevant fee etc, as I had heard nothing from them.

I then received that same day a verification letter from TFL, asking me to accept or deny the case. I promptly replied accepting that I had travelled on the incorrect card, but this was an inadvertent error on my part and an accident. I also advised them on the mix up in address, asking any future correspondence to be sent to my mother's address. I also attached my boarding pass showing I had landed in the country 5 days prior and again advised that the jet lag had left me very tired and dazed, and that I must have picked up her card without realizing. I acknowledged again it was my responsibility to travel on the correct card, but I had made a mistake and apologized.

I have just recieved (this week) a Single Justice Procedure Notice, advising me to plea guilty or not guilty. I am aware that I have already accepted that I made the error, so I will need to plead guilty. However my MAIN issue is that of a criminal conviction - I live in Canada and am intending to apply for citizenship there, and potentially also New Zealand in the future. I regularly also travel through the States. A conviction of any kind will have a HUGE implication on my future. This is my first and only offence and was an honest mistake. I can provide my oyster card to TFL as evidence that I have one registered to myself however I do not know when it was last topped up.

I have searched through this forum and so have seen there is the potential chance of writing to TFL, asking for the matter to be settled out of court. This is my main question - am I too late to ask for this option now I have recieved the SJPN (deadline middle of January)? And if not what is the best way to go around this?

Any help is very appreciated! Thank you very much

 

[island]

What offence are you charged with?

 

[ChewChewTrain]

At this stage, if avoiding a conviction is really important to you, it may be worth getting a specialist solicitor involved. This will cost A Lot but will probably maximise your chances of getting the result you want. Others here may well disagree, and I’m no expert, but (as you know) you’ve come to us late in the day and most of the other responses people would normally suggest are not available to you at this stage.

 

[30907]

I think the specialist advice you need (which we cannot provide) is on the impact on your future citizenship of a conviction for the specific offence concerned.
Hence the question by island earlier.

 

[anonlondon]

I think the specialist advice you need (which we cannot provide) is on the impact on your future citizenship of a conviction for the specific offence concerned.
Hence the question by island earlier.

Thanks all, and apologies for the omission.

The offence is Byelaw 17(1) - no person shall enter a compulsory ticket area unless he had with him a valid ticket.

Is contacting TFL for an out of court option no longer a choice? Thanks again.

 

[island]

TfL rarely settles out of court, but it's not completely unknown, so still worth trying to get in touch. They have been cracking down on misuse of free travel passes for several years, which is why you weren't given the option to pay a Penalty Fare to resolve the matter.

It's an offence for me to give immigration advice as I'm not appropriately qualified and registered, but I can say that the offence you mentioned above is the most minor ticketing offence there is, and does not appear to me to meet the US's definition of "moral turpitude".

 

[30907]

It's an offence for me to give immigration advice as I'm not appropriately qualified and registered, but I can say that the offence you mentioned above is the most minor ticketing offence there is, and does not appear to me to meet the US's definition of "moral turpitude".

Just to add:
it seems to be normal for TfL to prosecute under Byelaw 17(1) when they could charge people with more serious offences.

The good news is that a Byelaw conviction - should it come to that - is a "non-recordable" offence, meaning that you do not end up with a criminal record. (It may show on an Enhanced DBS check, but that's not relevant here.)

I would recommend you (anonlondon) investigate whether a non-recordable offence would have an impact on your future. You may be able to do this initially without taking specialist advice.

 

[Haywain]

It's an offence for me to give immigration advice as I'm not appropriately qualified and registered,

Is it an offence to give advice on immigration for other (non UK) countries?

 

[island]

Is it an offence to give advice on immigration for other (non UK) countries?

I have no idea

 

[Haywain]

I live in Canada and am intending to apply for citizenship there, and potentially also New Zealand in the future.

Whilst it is not likely to be illegal for us to give advice on these specific matters, you would be better to consult specialists to find out if it would have any impact on citizenship of those countries. However, as stated above, this is likely to be considered a minor offence and to have little impact.

 

[swt_passenger]

It had been almost 2 months and I still had not received a letter to either address provided, and so late October I emailed TFL advising that I'd received a penalty but had heard nothing. I explained that I had made a mistake but wanted to ensure that I was doing everything required of me to pay the relevant fee etc, as I had heard nothing from them.

If I can help in the quest for accuracy, at the stage mentioned above you had not “received a penalty”, but had just been reported for further investigation. AFAICT from previous threads TfL do not use their penalty [fare] process for this offence.

 

[anonlondon]

Thank you all for your guidance! I am going to attempt to request an out of court settlement, just so that I know that I have tried every avenue! Would it be possible for anyone to confirm if i have included all the relevant information and any amendments need to be made?
Thanks again


Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to start by explaining how sorry I am for using a 60+ oyster card to travel on the London Underground, in August 2022. I fully understand that instances such as this cause TFL to lose revenue which has ramifications, and for that I sincerely apologise. I now understand how important it is to ensure I have double checked that i am carrying my own oyster card.

I now live in XXX having previously lived and worked in London. At that time I had two oyster cards (no. XXX and no. XXX) upon which I was confident credit remained. On XXX 2022 I visited the UK, staying with family and friends for the 12 day duration of my stay. On the day in question, I was visiting friends in London. My possessions, including my old oyster cards, were stored with my mother. Before leaving for London, I took what i thought was my card (which had been in a card holder) and left the house. What I didn’t realise, was that my mother also had her card in an identical case. Thus, I was extremely surprised and alarmed to discover that I had been using her card to travel on, rather than my own, when the inspector stopped me.

I relayed my shock to the inspector, and immediately offered to pay for the correct ticket (which he allowed me to do), and any penalty fine I had become liable for. I provided two addresses for correspondence but 8 weeks later had heard nothing. I therefore emailed the Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions Team on XXX 2022 (copy attached) reiterating my remorse, and again offering to pay the appropriate penalty. I received a prompt reply from a XXX Prosecutor and Investigator, asking me to respond to a letter. I did so that same day (copy attached), accepting the offence. I received no response and I am unaware of any other correspondence until the Single Justice Procedure Notice I received on December 27th, 2022.

I am writing to plead that we can settle this matter out of court. This is my first and only offence, and it was the result of a mistake caused by a combination of circumstance and jet lag. I acknowledge that it is my responsibility to ensure I am travelling on the correct card, and would like to ask if it will be allowable for me to pay any outstanding fare, administrative and investigative costs for TFL, and any further costs required to prevent this from going to court. I plan to apply for citizenship in Canada, and a criminal conviction will have a huge impact on my future.

Many thanks,

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you all for your guidance! I am going to attempt to request an out of court settlement, just so that I know that I have tried every avenue! Would it be possible for anyone to confirm if i have included all the relevant information and any amendments need to be made?
Thanks again


Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to start by explaining how sorry I am for using a 60+ oyster card to travel on the London Underground, in August 2022. I fully understand that instances such as this cause TFL to lose revenue which has ramifications, and for that I sincerely apologise. I now understand how important it is to ensure I have double checked that i am carrying my own oyster card.

I now live in XXX having previously lived and worked in London. At that time I had two oyster cards (no. XXX and no. XXX) upon which I was confident credit remained. On XXX 2022 I visited the UK, staying with family and friends for the 12 day duration of my stay. On the day in question, I was visiting friends in London. My possessions, including my old oyster cards, were stored with my mother. Before leaving for London, I took what i thought was my card (which had been in a card holder) and left the house. What I didn’t realise, was that my mother also had her card in an identical case. Thus, I was extremely surprised and alarmed to discover that I had been using her card to travel on, rather than my own, when the inspector stopped me.

I relayed my shock to the inspector, and immediately offered to pay for the correct ticket (which he allowed me to do), and any penalty fine I had become liable for. I provided two addresses for correspondence but 8 weeks later had heard nothing. I therefore emailed the Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions Team on XXX 2022 (copy attached) reiterating my remorse, and again offering to pay the appropriate penalty. I received a prompt reply from a XXX Prosecutor and Investigator, asking me to respond to a letter. I did so that same day (copy attached), accepting the offence. I received no response and I am unaware of any other correspondence until the Single Justice Procedure Notice I received on December 27th, 2022.

I am writing to plead that we can settle this matter out of court. This is my first and only offence, and it was the result of a mistake caused by a combination of circumstance and jet lag. I acknowledge that it is my responsibility to ensure I am travelling on the correct card, and would like to ask if it will be allowable for me to pay any outstanding fare, administrative and investigative costs for TFL, and any further costs required to prevent this from going to court. I plan to apply for citizenship in Canada, and a criminal conviction will have a huge impact on my future.

Many thanks,

I think that looks fine. It states your position clearly, recognises that you have made a mistake and explains what you would like TfL to do.

As has already been said, our experience until very recently is that TfL rarely agree to settle out of court. But this seems to have changed a little in recent months so there is a chance (but by no means any certainty) that they will agree to let you settle this before the matter is actually heard in court.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all for your guidance! I am going to attempt to request an out of court settlement, just so that I know that I have tried every avenue! Would it be possible for anyone to confirm if i have included all the relevant information and any amendments need to be made?
Thanks again


Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to start by explaining how sorry I am for using a 60+ oyster card to travel on the London Underground, in August 2022. I fully understand that instances such as this cause TFL to lose revenue which has ramifications, and for that I sincerely apologise. I now understand how important it is to ensure I have double checked that i am carrying my own oyster card.

I now live in XXX having previously lived and worked in London. At that time I had two oyster cards (no. XXX and no. XXX) upon which I was confident credit remained. On XXX 2022 I visited the UK, staying with family and friends for the 12 day duration of my stay. On the day in question, I was visiting friends in London. My possessions, including my old oyster cards, were stored with my mother. Before leaving for London, I took what i thought was my card (which had been in a card holder) and left the house. What I didn’t realise, was that my mother also had her card in an identical case. Thus, I was extremely surprised and alarmed to discover that I had been using her card to travel on, rather than my own, when the inspector stopped me.

I relayed my shock to the inspector, and immediately offered to pay for the correct ticket (which he allowed me to do), and any penalty fine I had become liable for. I provided two addresses for correspondence but 8 weeks later had heard nothing. I therefore emailed the Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions Team on XXX 2022 (copy attached) reiterating my remorse, and again offering to pay the appropriate penalty. I received a prompt reply from a XXX Prosecutor and Investigator, asking me to respond to a letter. I did so that same day (copy attached), accepting the offence. I received no response and I am unaware of any other correspondence until the Single Justice Procedure Notice I received on December 27th, 2022.

I am writing to plead that we can settle this matter out of court. This is my first and only offence, and it was the result of a mistake caused by a combination of circumstance and jet lag. I acknowledge that it is my responsibility to ensure I am travelling on the correct card, and would like to ask if it will be allowable for me to pay any outstanding fare, administrative and investigative costs for TFL, and any further costs required to prevent this from going to court. I plan to apply for citizenship in Canada, and a criminal conviction will have a huge impact on my future.

Many thanks,

Looks good. IIRC you now live in Canada - it may be worth making that clearer if so - as I suspect they might appreciate an offer of payment to settle in such cases with people residing abroad (as I suspect many people in that situation just ignore TfL and indeed ignore court requests too and thus no one gets any money, whilst you are offering them some) - tho this is just my hunch.

Good luck with this.

 

[Hadders]

Historically TfL rarely settle out of court but they have been known to give final warnings in a limited number of cases which often involves the payment of an administrative settlement.

The letter looks fine to me and you won't lose anything by sending it. Please do let us know how you get on.

 

[anonlondon]

Historically TfL rarely settle out of court but they have been known to give final warnings in a limited number of cases which often involves the payment of an administrative settlement.

The letter looks fine to me and you won't lose anything by sending it. Please do let us know how you get on.

@Hadders @Fawkes Cat @WesternLancer I really appreciate your replies and your help! I sent the letter yesterday, and so will keep you updated if/when I get a response.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

 

[furlong]

The best reason for TfL to offer to settle is that you have left the country and any court order to pay them might in practice be unenforceable - they'll have experience from similar cases in the past where they did or did not ever get back their outlay and compensation awarded. Don't state that of course, but bear it in mind while phrasing your letter.