Sleeper trains: Individual sleeping pods or sharing a cabin with a stranger. Which is more preferable?

[12LDA28C]

Sharing with one stranger is more dangerous than with multiple because there is nobody to intervene or witness should a person attack the only other occupant.

Thats one way of looking at it. Or you might consider that if an attack or robbery takes place there are fewer options to escape the scene on a moving train than there are a very stationary hotel room.

You do know I'm not Caledonian Sleeper, yes?

I assumed not. I've shared berths many times with strangers in the past without issue. I'm just not a huge fan of arguments / discussions along the lines of 'it is what it is'.

 

[43066]

A brilliant, well-reasoned argument. Bravo.

You do know I'm not Caledonian Sleeper, yes?

I think this is what’s known as “shooting the messenger”!

 

[Davester50]

I think this is what’s known as “shooting the messenger”!

Quite.

 

[zwk500]

Thats one way of looking at it. Or you might consider that if an attack or robbery takes place there are fewer options to escape the scene on a moving train than there are a very stationary hotel room.

Potentially, although Couchettes seem to work fairly well. Also, on the train there should be stewards on duty and so in theory you are more likely to be able to get help sooner than a hostel which may very well have one night manager for the entire building.
AFAIK most hotels won't put two strangers booking separately in the same twin room, which is a similar concept.

 

[XAM2175]

I assumed not. I've shared berths many times with strangers in the past without issue. I'm just not a huge fan of arguments / discussions along the lines of 'it is what it is'.

Seriously, this has been done to death already. Make a speculative thread if you really want to have another run at it.

 

[styles]

I'm not about to argue that flying isn't cheaper but as a matter of interest what times would this involve (including when you have to get up and when you get home to bed)?

About 5am leaving my house. I get up at 6am on a normal day, so that's fine for me. Added advantage of getting home the same day, so only one night away.

I won't be flying though. I can't justify the environmental conscience cost.

If they're occupied by one person who doesn't want to share with you then the empty bunk effectively doesn't exist.

Not quite - two passengers sharing a twin room on the CS is more expensive than just one passenger having the room to themselves. It costs about 25% more to buy the tickets for twin occupancy. So when we say the service is 'sold out', it never is unless every single room has two passengers in - both from an availability and a revenue point of view.

 

[InOban]

Isn't it safer sharing a room or dormitory with multiple strangers than with just one other?

 

[styles]

Isn't it safer sharing a room or dormitory with multiple strangers than with just one other?

Yeah I'd prefer we had couchettes.

Neither that nor twin sharing are going to happen though sadly.

I think we'd almost need an entirely new service with couchettes at this point, and the political will to make that happen isn't really there.

 

[Davester50]

'sold out', it never is unless every single room has two passengers in - both from an availability and a revenue point of view.

Pedantically no.
If you can't buy a bed, it's sold out, yet still every bed may not be occupied.

 

[Davester50]

Having something like the single person pods that nightjet has in their new trains would be good

Yes, and that's another old topic that's been done to death!

 

[Siemens Trains]

But if I tick a box to say I'm fully aware of those (IMV negligible but non-zero) risks, what's the issue?

Rather than putting the responsibility for making arrangements onto Serco, someone could always advertise on the internet or start a club for similarly-minded strangers wishing to share the cost of a private room on the sleeper.

And yet somehow you can book to share a room / dormitory at a hostel for the night in the UK with any number of strangers, or are you saying that's inappropriate / unsafe also?

True, but you can also share the seated carriage on the sleeper train with any number of strangers too.

 

[lachlan]

Rather than putting the responsibility for making arrangements onto Serco, someone could always advertise on the internet or start a club for similarly-minded strangers wishing to share the cost of a private room on the sleeper.

True, but you can also share the seated carriage on the sleeper train with any number of strangers too.

As the service is being handed back to the Scottish Government, I am wondering if it is worth writing to MPs to ask why a subsidised service is not being run in the best interest of passengers by allowing strangers to share, maximising usage of the rolling stock. Link it into environmental concerns too.

 

[PG]

As the service is being handed back to the Scottish Government, I am wondering if it is worth writing to MPs to ask why a subsidised service is not being run in the best interest of passengers by allowing strangers to share, maximising usage of the rolling stock. Link it into environmental concerns too.

<Pedant Alert> Since it is the Scottish government then that letter would be better off going to MSPs.
Still don't see it happening - they'll be too nervous with the recent gender issues that hit the headlines

 

[BRX]

Do the mk5s have the same thing the mk3s had where you can open the door between two cabins so it becomes a sort of 4 bed rather than 2 bed space?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do the mk5s have the same thing the mk3s had where you can open the door between two cabins so it becomes a sort of 4 bed rather than 2 bed space?

Yes, in the Classic cabins.

 

[XAM2175]

Still don't see it happening - they'll be too nervous with the recent gender issues that hit the headlines

I feel it's worth restating for the benefit of the thread as a whole that sharing was done away with long before gender became controversial on the grounds that people didn't want to share.

 

[_toommm_]

True, but you can also share the seated carriage on the sleeper train with any number of strangers too.

But the sleeper carriage is open, with more people around and lockers above every seat with the staff coming through, and the guards office being next to it if I remember correctly. The chances of anything dodgy happening are much more slim.

 

[D6130]

But the sleeper carriage is open, with more people around and lockers above every seat with the staff coming through, and the guards office being next to it if I remember correctly. The chances of anything dodgy happening are much more slim.

Presumably you mean the seating carriage?

 

[lachlan]

I feel it's worth restating for the benefit of the thread as a whole that sharing was done away with long before gender became controversial on the grounds that people didn't want to share.

I’m sure plenty people would if it was cheaper - I know I would have been more likely to go for a berth if it was at a cheaper price vs a seat or travelling during the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the sleeper carriage is open, with more people around and lockers above every seat with the staff coming through, and the guards office being next to it if I remember correctly. The chances of anything dodgy happening are much more slim.

Exactly. I'll happily go in an open coach, but sharing with one other person in such intimate space is very awkward to me.

 

[Mikey C]

A major flaw really, if the only way a solo traveller can use the Sleeper is by paying for the entire cabin, and not giving people the option of sharing with a stranger. It's basically making it a luxury service

Looking up the Austrian Nightjet sleepers, they for example allow you to share with strangers

A guide to Nightjet sleeper trains | Tickets from €29.90

A guide to Europe's Nightjet sleeper trains, including Brussels to Vienna, Amsterdam to Vienna, Munich & Innsbruck, Vienna to Milan, Florence, Rome, Munich to Milan, Florence, Rome, Zurich to Vienna. What are they like? Fares, tickets, information, travel tips.

www.seat61.com

Sleeping-cars = 1, 2, or 3 bed compartments, standard with washbasin or deluxe with en suite shower & toilet. A sleeper is the most civilised, comfortable & romantic way to travel, with proper beds in cosy & carpeted 1, 2 or 3-bed compartments. Breakfast is included. Sleepers convert from bedrooms to cosy private sitting rooms for morning or evening use. Berths are sold individually, so if travelling solo you can book one inexpensive bed in a 2-berth or 3-berth compartment and share with other sleeper passengers of the same gender, you don't need to pay for a single-bed compartment if you don't want to. Think of a sleeper as a travelling hotel.

 

[Bald Rick]

A point being missed in all this is that sharing is very much allowed. It just needs to be someone you book with at the same time. And the good news is that you pay per room, therefore it is effectively half price for the two travelling together, which is remarkable value even at say £240 for the room one way.

Therefore those asking for a return to the ‘sharing with strangers’ option are looking at a rather small % of the market, ie those people travelling alone, not on business (ie paying for themselves) who would prefer the sleeper over day train / flying. I contend that this is a low single digit% segment of the market, which CS have decided is not worth chasing as a) they can sell the cabins anyway (therefore the additional revenue foregone is minimal; indeed they may well get more revenue through not sharing), b) it fits better with the hotel on wheels concept (it is not a hostel on wheels), and c) it avoids a whole load of trouble on the night with unruly cabin fellows / people not realising they had booked a sharer / etc.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Therefore those asking for a return to the ‘sharing with strangers’ option are looking at a rather small % of the market, ie those people travelling alone, not on business (ie paying for themselves) who would prefer the sleeper over day train / flying. I contend that this is a low single digit% segment of the market, which CS have decided is not worth chasing as a) they can sell the cabins anyway (therefore the additional revenue foregone is minimal; indeed they may well get more revenue through not sharing), b) it fits better with the hotel on wheels concept (it is not a hostel on wheels), and c) it avoids a whole load of trouble on the night with unruly cabin fellows / people not realising they had booked a sharer / etc.

I think that's an excellent insight into why the British approach is different.

A typical continental sleeper train portion has 1 seated coach, 2 coaches of shared 6 berth couchettes, and 1 coach of sleeping compartments, optionally shared but probably not that often. The dominant traveller group is backpackers, school groups and others who just want to get to their destination at a budget price with a modicum of sleep in the process. So rather more 'hostel on wheels'.

I would question whether the Scottish Government should be subsidising a luxury hotel operation, but I guess it's their money, they can do what they like.

 

[Peter Sarf]

A point being missed in all this is that sharing is very much allowed. It just needs to be someone you book with at the same time. And the good news is that you pay per room, therefore it is effectively half price for the two travelling together, which is remarkable value even at say £240 for the room one way.

Therefore those asking for a return to the ‘sharing with strangers’ option are looking at a rather small % of the market, ie those people travelling alone, not on business (ie paying for themselves) who would prefer the sleeper over day train / flying. I contend that this is a low single digit% segment of the market, which CS have decided is not worth chasing as a) they can sell the cabins anyway (therefore the additional revenue foregone is minimal; indeed they may well get more revenue through not sharing), b) it fits better with the hotel on wheels concept (it is not a hostel on wheels), and c) it avoids a whole load of trouble on the night with unruly cabin fellows / people not realising they had booked a sharer / etc.

I think this is right. It is a bit like things that fall victim to health and safety. Once it occurs to someone that something may not be safe it becomes harder to ignore the risk unless your blinkers are on. Things have changed - probably for the safer.

For instance as a 14 year old I was travelling alone from Birmingham to Manchester or from Medway to Yorkshire. Not sure someone would let their child do that nowadays because we are more aware of what nasty people are sometimes around - our parents/guardians/other-responsibles did not know that people like Jimmy Saville, Gary Glitter or Rolf Harris did exist.

I think that's an excellent insight into why the British approach is different.

A typical continental sleeper train portion has 1 seated coach, 2 coaches of shared 6 berth couchettes, and 1 coach of sleeping compartments, optionally shared but probably not that often. The dominant traveller group is backpackers, school groups and others who just want to get to their destination at a budget price with a modicum of sleep in the process. So rather more 'hostel on wheels'.

I would question whether the Scottish Government should be subsidising a luxury hotel operation, but I guess it's their money, they can do what they like.

It does seem Europe is a little different. Even SE Asia where I have used open carriages full of beds.

The only way to test this is to see if a couchette style operation could operate in the UK. But our older and more restricted loading guage makes this a less efficient proposition. Personally I would not be likely to pay the standard cheap rail fare London-Edinburgh for a horizontal berth of any kind - I would pay less by road coach - so I cannot see it being economic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only way to test this is to see if a couchette style operation could operate in the UK. But our older and more restricted loading guage makes this a less efficient possibility.

You could I reckon certainly do an open couchette coach with 4 beds in each group with curtains. It wouldn't get massively more beds in than Classic sleepers though.

Longitudinal (as per the Thai sleepers) would be best but this would hit the same "head first" issues as the pods did.

 

[popeter45]

You could I reckon certainly do an open couchette coach with 4 beds in each group with curtains. It wouldn't get massively more beds in than Classic sleepers though.

Longitudinal (as per the Thai sleepers) would be best but this would hit the same "head first" issues as the pods did.

with NJ's pod idea while it wouldnt up capacity it for sure would up average loadings as it would allow every bed to be filled but without needing to share a room
question would be if that would work with UK loading gauge or would the coridor be too tight?

 

[Bald Rick]

with NJ's pod idea while it wouldnt up capacity it for sure would up average loadings as it would allow every bed to be filled but without needing to share a room
question would be if that would work with UK loading gauge or would the coridor be too tight?

But the point is average loadings on the Caledonian sleeper are very high - every cabin is sold on a routine basis. As the price is the same for using one or two beds in the cabin, the additional revenue on offer for having sharing (or couchettes, or pods, or whatever) is minimal to non-existent.

 

[paul1609]

A point being missed in all this is that sharing is very much allowed. It just needs to be someone you book with at the same time. And the good news is that you pay per room, therefore it is effectively half price for the two travelling together, which is remarkable value even at say £240 for the room one way.

Therefore those asking for a return to the ‘sharing with strangers’ option are looking at a rather small % of the market, ie those people travelling alone, not on business (ie paying for themselves) who would prefer the sleeper over day train / flying. I contend that this is a low single digit% segment of the market, which CS have decided is not worth chasing as a) they can sell the cabins anyway (therefore the additional revenue foregone is minimal; indeed they may well get more revenue through not sharing), b) it fits better with the hotel on wheels concept (it is not a hostel on wheels), and c) it avoids a whole load of trouble on the night with unruly cabin fellows / people not realising they had booked a sharer / etc.

I think another point being missed is that even when sharing was permitted it wasn't generally for people joining leaving at intermediate stations. I must have been well in to the high hundreds of journeys on the Caledonian Sleeper before retirement. Most of these early on would have been in theoretically shared cabins but because I was alighting at Garelochead I never shared. In something like 35 years I only shared once on an usual trip for me from Euston to Aberdeen.