Sleepers at Manchester?

[MichaelAMW]

1984-1985 timetable, Mondays to Saturdays:

Man P 0030
Eus 0446

Portion from Liverpool LS depart 0015 and combining with the Manchester portion at Stafford.

Connecting 2150 Barrow in Furness to Crewe.

On Sunday mornings departed at the same time from Liverpool / Manchester, but got to Euston at 0547 on Sunday morning.

This was just one of seven sleeper trains arriving at Euston in the morning.

According to my timetable archive, a couple of years earlier there was a separate Barrow - Euston sleeper, 2045 arriving 0221, and a couple of years later a 2149 from Barrow that was a portion for the Liverpool/Manchester/Barrow sleeper that combined at Stafford. The Barrow portion was there for over an hour. Since there was no down sleeper to Barrow, only to Liverpool and Manchester at 2350, the sleeper portion for Barrow was conveyed empty to Preston at the front of the 1630 Euston to Blackpool. At Preston, the electric loco shunted the single sleeper off the train - the loco needed to be changed for a diesel - and onto the north of the Edinburgh portion of the 1544 Edinburgh/1550 Glasgow to Manchester Victoria. (Although it combined at Carstairs only the Glasgow bit actually went to Manchester.) That lot then formed the 1940 Preston to Barrow and then the 2149 to Stafford. Only the sleeping car was attached to the Man/Liv sleeper at Stafford; I don't know for sure what the seating coaches did but there is a very suspicious looking 0638 Stafford - Preston, which appears to have 100mph timings, where I suspect it was attached to the 1025 Manchester Victoria to Glasgow and Edinburgh, i.e what might have been a Liverpool portion was actually a Preston portion - and the cycle repeats.

I haven't given you this mind-numbing detail to show off that I can read a timetable but merely to give a flavour of how crafty BR could be with getting the most out of their rolling stock. The people who devised all these devious carriage workings, presumably largely manually, must have been rather special people!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Indeed. I actually sleep much better on the sleeper when it’s moving than when it’s stopped.

Same here; it tends to be when it stops that I wake up. I generally also sleep better on the Sleeper than at home - no bony elbows digging in to my side with alarming regularity for a start...!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Totally agree. The notion that sleepers have somehow been rendered obsolete by modern options is a complete con. The only way now to get to London (or the northern terminus) for 7.30 is to have to get up in the middle of the night or to have to travel the previous evening for a late arrival, taking away any possibility to enjoy that evening.

Or, if your employer is more reasonable, travel earlier on during the working day on an off peak ticket and enjoy a relaxing evening in London on your own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to my timetable archive

I wonder why it omitted Roose but still served all the other obscure little stations with short platforms? Bet it wasn't busy at Kents Bank.

 

[Cowley]

Same here; it tends to be when it stops that I wake up. I generally also sleep better on the Sleeper than at home - no bony elbows digging in to my side with alarming regularity for a start...!!

Just before Christmas last year I went up to London for a forum meet and caught the sleeper back to Exeter (seated coach not cabin).
I woke up at Taunton and nearly jumped off the train in a panic before I worked out that the station was all wrong and there was no bay platform at the west end of St David’s.
I then had to embarrassingly go back to my seat where I’d tripped over the bloke opposites feet trying to escape a few minutes before...
Felt like a right amateur.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Or, if your employer is more reasonable, travel earlier on during the working day on an off peak ticket and enjoy a relaxing evening in London on your own.

Which depending on your view of your family and of London may not be an improvement. Especially if the unspoken quid pro quo is that you then have to work from the hotel room to make up for lost time in the office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which depending on your view of your family and of London may not be an improvement. Especially if the unspoken quid pro quo is that you then have to work from the hotel room to make up for lost time in the office.

These days you can work on the train.

 

[Indigo Soup]

These days you can work on the train.

Has it ever been the case that you couldn't, with a little application?

It's not always possible, though - some work is sensitive, so couldn't be done on the train, or you may not be able to get a seat. Even if you can work on the train, you can't work in the taxi to the station, whilst looking for a platform, or getting to the hotel. And that's before management attitudes are taken into account - at least some will take the view that they haven't paid for you to go to London so you can enjoy a nice evening out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has it ever been the case that you couldn't, with a little application?

Depends on your job. I can now (near enough) but couldn't in the early 2000s as a good enough Internet connection was not a possibility.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Depends on your job. I can now (near enough) but couldn't in the early 2000s as a good enough Internet connection was not a possibility.

Depends on the work of course - it's perfectly possible to work without an internet connection, if there are things to be written/drawn/reviewed.

 

[PeterC]

I wonder why it omitted Roose but still served all the other obscure little stations with short platforms? Bet it wasn't busy at Kents Bank.

At a guess the stopping pattern probably related to points where mail bags or newspapers were to be off loaded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the work of course - it's perfectly possible to work without an internet connection, if there are things to be written/drawn/reviewed.

True, but with one a wider range of work is possible than without.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

. I don't know much about the operations during the Troubles but I'd hazard a guess the forces provided their own transport rather than letting their troops find their own way across what was in part hostile territory.
Tg.

Some of the last trains to serve Liverpool Riverside station were troop trains. Not sure where they ran from but Riverside was handily located next to the Belfast Ferry terminal at Princes Dock.

 

[edwin_m]

Some of the last trains to serve Liverpool Riverside station were troop trains. Not sure where they ran from but Riverside was handily located next to the Belfast Ferry terminal at Princes Dock.

Disused Stations notes the very last train in 1971 being so, which would fit with the early years of the British Army presence in NI, as well as its use when sending troops to suppress the 1916 Easter Rising when marching from Lime Street through a city with a large Irish population was not considered wise.

 

[gingerheid]

The West of England - Scotland sleeper was a huge train, loaded to 15 or more coaches IIRC. Very big demand - another excellent service withdrawn

I was as sad as anyone when it was withdrawn as I used it regularly. But I can't argue with how empty it was getting. There came a point when someone else in the carriage was most unusual.

While I write this from a sleeper train and love them (they are the only civilised way to travel), I do realise their days are numbered. We're very lucky the Mk5s are coming.

As it is, the daytime service from London is already so much improved on the early 90s that I sometimes take one of the last day trains north instead of the sleeper. They are one of many things that keep eating at the need for overnight travel.

 

[Helvellyn]

I think the final nail in the coffin for that sleeper was the Royal Navy pulling out of Rosyth in the mid 90's and it didn't really fit with any of the then new TOCs.

Indeed, it wouldn't have fitted with the Great Western franchise and whilst it could have been given to ScotRail along with the West Coast Sleepers (which had, after all, been part of the InterCity sector like all Sleeper services) it was probably marginal and also didn't have the political support the London services did (quite heavily used by MPs and Members of the House of Lords with Scottish homes in the 1990s). Add in that it was also a Motorail service, which went too with privatisation, and it didn't have a home.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

According to my timetable archive, a couple of years earlier there was a separate Barrow - Euston sleeper, 2045 arriving 0221, and a couple of years later a 2149 from Barrow that was a portion for the Liverpool/Manchester/Barrow sleeper that combined at Stafford. The Barrow portion was there for over an hour. Since there was no down sleeper to Barrow, only to Liverpool and Manchester at 2350, the sleeper portion for Barrow was conveyed empty to Preston at the front of the 1630 Euston to Blackpool. At Preston, the electric loco shunted the single sleeper off the train - the loco needed to be changed for a diesel - and onto the north of the Edinburgh portion of the 1544 Edinburgh/1550 Glasgow to Manchester Victoria. (Although it combined at Carstairs only the Glasgow bit actually went to Manchester.) That lot then formed the 1940 Preston to Barrow and then the 2149 to Stafford. Only the sleeping car was attached to the Man/Liv sleeper at Stafford; I don't know for sure what the seating coaches did but there is a very suspicious looking 0638 Stafford - Preston, which appears to have 100mph timings, where I suspect it was attached to the 1025 Manchester Victoria to Glasgow and Edinburgh, i.e what might have been a Liverpool portion was actually a Preston portion - and the cycle repeats.

I haven't given you this mind-numbing detail to show off that I can read a timetable but merely to give a flavour of how crafty BR could be with getting the most out of their rolling stock. The people who devised all these devious carriage workings, presumably largely manually, must have been rather special people!

Thank you for this, a most fascinating piece of reasoned deduction. Old timetables are wonderful sources of factual history, when combined with some snippets of inside knowledge.

If I might add my own piece to the puzzle - although it is second-hand information from a work colleague. There was apparently a bizarre interaction between the Euston-Manchester sleeper and the York-Shrewsbury TPO, in that the Type 4 diesel loco diagrammed to the latter’s southbound working would be replaced at Crewe in the early hours, and then ran light to Stafford, returning north with the Manchester portion of the sleeper. Through the 1980s this was usually a 47 but often produced a Peak. Does anyone have memories of the sleeper arriving at Manchester Piccadilly with such a loco?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Thank you for this, a most fascinating piece of reasoned deduction. Old timetables are wonderful sources of factual history, when combined with some snippets of inside knowledge.

If I might add my own piece to the puzzle - although it is second-hand information from a work colleague. There was apparently a bizarre interaction between the Euston-Manchester sleeper and the York-Shrewsbury TPO, in that the Type 4 diesel loco diagrammed to the latter’s southbound working would be replaced at Crewe in the early hours, and then ran light to Stafford, returning north with the Manchester portion of the sleeper. Through the 1980s this was usually a 47 but often produced a Peak. Does anyone have memories of the sleeper arriving at Manchester Piccadilly with such a loco?

Some confusion here I think. The York-Shrewsbury and return were worked by three separate locos in each direction. A diesel, typically whatever was available, worked from York to Stockport and waited there to work the balancing service. Any electric could be used between Stockport and Crewe with the two trains normally crossing on that stretch so two different locos. The Crewe-Shrewsbury leg would be another diesel which would then work Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton legs of Euston services later in the day. The opposite principle covered the northbound working. The loco "exchange" between the York-Shrewsbury and the Euston-Piccadilly sleeper would have been an electric unless of course the OHLE was switched off for maintenance.

However such diesel haulage of the sleepers would have been more likely on Saturday night/Sunday morning workings when the TPOs didn't run. I did once use the Euston-Lime Street sleeper on a Saturday night to find on arrival at Lime Street a 47 on the front and the train in reverse formation. I found out later in the day that the train had been diesel hauled from Crewe via Chester with a shunt around the triangle at the latter point.

 

[AY1975]

The Manchester sleeper had definitely stopped by 1992 though, which is before the OP was born.

I think the Manchester, Liverpool, Holyhead and Barrow Sleepers were withdrawn at the end of the 1991 summer timetable, having survived a threat of withdrawal in the early '80s when BR didn't think it would have enough Mark 3 sleepers to cover secondary services such as these, but they did in the end because a lot of Sleeper services were being axed even as the Mark 3s were entering service (such as the Leeds, Milford Haven, and Newcastle via Hartlepool services).

My dad went on it to Manchester a few times, and remembers waking up on it in Platform 12 at Piccadilly, looking out of the window and seeing a poster which appeared to read "Welcome to Manchester, home of Britain's best rain," but when he got off he found it actually said home of Britain's best raincoats!

In the days of Mark 1 sleepers, it had to use Platform 12 at Piccadilly, as that was the only platform equipped with a trough beneath the track to catch the effluent from the on-train toilets (and the self-emptying chamber-pots in each compartment).

I think it was latterly formed of just one sleeping car for each destination, and otherwise consisted of ordinary day coaches and luggage/parcels vans.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Has anyone compiled a definitive history of sleeping car services in the UK ? Would be interesting to know where they ran from and to and the first and last dates of each place served.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Just dug up my platform working book from Bristol Temple Meads may to Oct 1984. 2124 depart m-th 1s19, 2140 FO 1s23 Sleepers calling at Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Wigan North Western, Preston, Carlisle, Carstaires front to Motherwell and Glasgow Central, rear to Edinburgh.
Roads 6 and 7 in Victoria Sidings St Phillips Marsh depot are longer than the rest to stable the train in 2 halves due to its length.
Happy days !

 

[flymo]

Has anyone compiled a definitive history of sleeping car services in the UK ? Would be interesting to know where they ran from and to and the first and last dates of each place served.

There was also a network of overnight seated services, i.e. those without sleeping cars, such as the low cost Nightrider services, which, at the time, provided a valuable low cost overnight service where early services were not available. Of course since then the 'day' railway has started a lot earlier and finished a lot later so the need for such services is perhaps reduced.

 

[Altfish]

In about 1966, I caught a sleeper to Manchester from London.
It left Marylebone at about midnight and travelled via the Great Central Line, we woke up in Piccadilly with a 27000 class on the front.

 

[4141]

I first did the sleeper in April 1966 on a school skiing holiday to Aviemore, normal train to Birmingham and then board the sleeper there - these days I kick myself as there was still steam to be seen in the wild in the North West but as fifteen year olds trying to be cool (trainspotting? Pah!) we played three card brag most of the night...however any pretence at cool went out of the window as we left Buchanan Street and the cry went up "streak!!!" and we passed an A4 Pacific...
A few years later, some may remember the Mail strike of 1971 - the company I worked for in Cheltenham had a branch office in Glasgow, so I volunteered to be the "runner" several times - up to Glasgow on the sleeper, a good breakfast at the station, the morning spent with local reps, then a six and a half hour trip back home on the mid day departure, hauled by double headed Class 50's IIRC, complete with lunch in the restaurant car and a can or two of McEwan's export!

 

[MDB1images]

Some of us can sleep on a sleeper no problem at all.

Must admit Ive spent lots of time on sleepers and can pretty much doss down anywhere but suspect no-one slept at Stafford on the Manchester Sleeper when the Liverpool portion was attached, I think by todays standard it would be classed as a slow speed collision rather than a coupling up procedure!
Not uncommon to see luggage come down from above lol.

 

[Richard P]

I used to Euston to Manchester sleeper in the summer of 1990, there were three sleeper carriages and three seated on that service an dit ran direct to Piccadilly, no detours or removal of other portions. Left Euston midnight and was scheduled at Manchester about 6.00am but I arrived around 4.30am. No idea how many were in the sleeping quarters but the seated carriages were full to overflowing

 

[Bevan Price]

Might be of some historic interest:

Sleeping Car (SC) Services (Historic)

London Midland Region, June 1955 (Northbound) .
Weekdays, including late Saturday night / early Sunday morning

London Euston dep.
19:15 (SX) Inverness
19:30 (FO) Oban
19:35 Perth , also (FX) Oban
19:55 (SX) Stranraer Harbour
20:45 Holyhead
21:10 Glasgow Central
21:25 Motherwell (conveys SC from Rugby – Glasgow Cen.)
22:50 (SX) Perth
23:05 (SX) Whitehaven Corkickle.
23:15 (SO) Barrow in Furness
23:30 Glasgow Central
00:20 (SuX) Preston & Glasgow Central
00:30 Liverpool Lime St
00:40 Manchester London Rd.
Equivalents to the above mostly also ran on Sunday nights / early Monday mornings, but with some differences in departure times.

London St. Pancras dep:
21:05 Galashiels , conveys SC from Kettering to Edinburgh Waverley
21:15 Glasgow St. Enoch
23:50 (00:05 Early Su morning) Leeds City

Birmingham New Street
23:10 Glasgow Central

Manchester Exchange
01:00 Glasgow Central via Blackburn

Liverpool Lime Street
00:45 Glasgow Central

12:00 Penzance to Glasgow overnight did not convey SC portion in 1955.

Eastern Region, June 1955 (Northbound)

London Kings Cross dep.:
18:50 (FO) Aberdeen
19:00 Aberdeen ("The Aberdonian") (Fort William portion on some dates)
19:15 (SX) Fort William (peak summer dates only)
22:15 Edinburgh, plus (SX) Dundee. ("The Night Scotsman")
22:20 (FO, plus MO in mid-summer) Edinburgh
22:35 (FO, plus SO in mid-summer) Edinburgh
22:45 (or 23:00 on some dates) Newcastle
23:45 Newcastle ("The Tynesider")
00:55 Edinburgh

Western Region, June 1954 (Westbound)
21:25 (SO) Neyland
21:50 Penzance
23:50 Plymouth
00:20 (SO) Penzance (Friday night / early Sat.)
01:05 (SuX) Carmarthen (not Sat. night / early Su)

Scottish Region, May 1961 (Internal services only)

Edinburgh Waverley dep 23:15 (SX) /
Glasgow Buchanan Street dep. 23:15 (SX) to Inverness

23:20 Inverness to Edinburgh Waverley & Glasgow Buchanan Street.

 

[daodao]

12:00 Penzance to Glasgow overnight did not convey SC portion in 1955.

It is interesting that you state that there was no sleeping car service from the West Country to Scotland in 1955. At some point, I recall that there was a sleeping car service from Manchester Piccadilly/London Road to Plymouth/Penzance. I presume it ran via Hereford, as did nearly all the NW to SW services before the mid 1960s, and wonder whether it was withdrawn when these services were re-routed via Birmingham New Street post WCML electrification.

 

[Bevan Price]

It is interesting that you state that there was no sleeping car service from the West Country to Scotland in 1955. At some point, I recall that there was a sleeping car service from Manchester Piccadilly/London Road to Plymouth/Penzance. I presume it ran via Hereford, as did nearly all the NW to SW services before the mid 1960s, and wonder whether it was withdrawn when these services were re-routed via Birmingham New Street post WCML electrification.

Yes. For example:
June 1965 timetable (London Midland Region)
00:45 Manchester Piccadilly - Plymouth with SC.
17:40 Penzance - Manchester Piccadilly -- conveyed SC from Plymouth to Manchester.
Both via Bristol, Hereford & Crewe.
Still no SC on the overnight Penzance / Glasgow service (which was then at 13:05 from Penzance), but there was a Bristol / Newcastle sleeper each way
Because of WCML electrification, the Liverpool & Manchester sleepers used London Marylebone, and there was also a Paddington to Birkenhead Woodside sleeper.
The Barrow (northbound) / Preston (southbound) sleepers used London St. Pancras.

 

[Killingworth]

I don't know when it stopped but there was a Motorail sleeper from Newcastle to Newton Abott in about June 1967. My car was clapped out and I didn't dare drive that far. As it happens it failed it's MOT before the booked day arrived and I had a more modern car, Austin 1100, by the time we travelled. I've a memory of not sleeping well and waiting in somewhere like Bristol for quite sometime. Must have started about 6 in the late afternoon from Newcastle and we were turfed off the train very early at Newton Abbott, possibly about 7 in the morning. Certainly saved a lot of driving. Wish I had a timetable to check that.

In 1966 I'd gone with another friend from Victoria via Folkestone and Boulogne to Kitzbuhel in Austria on a direct train that may have gone on to Strasbourg and Vienna. Scorching hot weather. Top bunk of 3 in a couchette compartment for 6 - 3 ladies and two lads. It was very hot up there as we tried to keep out of their way